Putting the 185s on a diet: Could they be made light enough for sprinter speeds?

[BMIFlyer]

You've obviously never had to travel on one that's on its way to the Airport.

If managed correctly by the on board staff, you can fill the overhead luggage racks with all the cabin sized bags.

Large cases go on the stacks or the bike area if no bikes are reserved for the trains journey.

Not difficult at all. It would help if passengers did what they were asked of them on the PA regarding luggage storage.

 

[swaldman]

I've never been on a 185, but it sounds like they'd be ideal for Scotrail if the refurbished HSTs don't all get delivered. They'd presumably have the acceleration to match a short HST's timings, and a top speed that matches or exceeds the vast majority of the track. And the axle load must be less than a 43. Only trouble is that they'd have to be run in pairs for capacity, and that would break the franchise stipulation of a through-the-train trolley service...

 

[Andrew Nelson]

If managed correctly by the on board staff, you can fill the overhead luggage racks with all the cabin sized bags.

Large cases go on the stacks or the bike area if no bikes are reserved for the trains journey.

Not difficult at all. It would help if passengers did what they were asked of them on the PA regarding luggage storage.

Lots of "IFs" there.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I think they've run that way in the past, due to engineering diversions.

Diverted away from what route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If managed correctly by the on board staff, you can fill the overhead luggage racks with all the cabin sized bags.

You can get far bigger bags on Desiro overheads than cabin bags - the overheads are huge - people are just too lazy.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You can get far bigger bags on Desiro overheads than cabin bags - the overheads are huge - people are just too lazy.

Or, maybe don't want to risk being "brained" when the unit lurches, and half a tonne of luggage lands on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or, maybe don't want to risk being "brained" when the unit lurches, and half a tonne of luggage lands on them.

The racks are also deep and square, meaning this is unlikely to happen, and in thousands of miles of travel on Desiros often having my own large luggage up there I have never seen it happen even once.

But going back to cabin bags (which is what most air passengers will have these days) there are only 4 possibilities - lazy, inconsiderate, selfish or someone with a disability, in which case return to options 1-3 regarding people not assisting with it.

 

[Spartacus]

Or that the racks are already full.... Even if the racks near you are full but empty elsewhere, with people told to keep their luggage in sight at all times it's not surprising that they don't want to leave them half way down the carriage. Same goes for airport reservations being positioned away from the large racks. You've got on, found your seats, doors close, and your hold luggage would have to be held aloft over people's heads while toy move it to a rack where you might not be able to see it, and even if you can wouldn't be able to do anything about anyone eyeing it up and making off with it at an intermediate station. Almost inevitably people then but their large bags in front of doors.

I also think it's wrong to assume most people only travel with cabin bags, there's a lot of travellers most notably from the far east (as well as elsewhere) who visit York with large luggage, then you've got a sizable proportion of the population in the central section who might make regular trips to visit family in South-East Asia and/or the Middle East, with their family making the visit in return, and from my experience they rarely travel light on those trips. Just one family is likely to fill all a 185's large luggage space PLUS local luggage racks, so immediately you've got large bags obstructing doors.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

The racks are also deep and square, meaning this is unlikely to happen, and in thousands of miles of travel on Desiros often having my own large luggage up there I have never seen it happen even once.

But going back to cabin bags (which is what most air passengers will have these days) there are only 4 possibilities - lazy, inconsiderate, selfish or someone with a disability, in which case return to options 1-3 regarding people not assisting with it.

I saw it happen just this morning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I saw it happen just this morning.

A full size bag that was correctly placed on the rack falling on someone's head?

Never seen it. I've almost knocked someone out dropping a full metal water bottle off my hand luggage bag on a plane, though...on balance I'm amazed you're allowed to take those (rather than plastic ones) on when you think about it

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Or that the racks are already full.... Even if the racks near you are full but empty elsewhere, with people told to keep their luggage in sight at all times it's not surprising that they don't want to leave them half way down the carriage. Same goes for airport reservations being positioned away from the large racks. You've got on, found your seats, doors close, and your hold luggage would have to be held aloft over people's heads while toy move it to a rack where you might not be able to see it, and even if you can wouldn't be able to do anything about anyone eyeing it up and making off with it at an intermediate station. Almost inevitably people then but their large bags in front of doors.

I also think it's wrong to assume most people only travel with cabin bags, there's a lot of travellers most notably from the far east (as well as elsewhere) who visit York with large luggage, then you've got a sizable proportion of the population in the central section who might make regular trips to visit family in South-East Asia and/or the Middle East, with their family making the visit in return, and from my experience they rarely travel light on those trips. Just one family is likely to fill all a 185's large luggage space PLUS local luggage racks, so immediately you've got large bags obstructing doors.

Spot on.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry to tell you this but you won’t ever find a 185 going over Paddock Viaduct as it’s on the Huddersfield to penistone line.

I think they've run that way in the past, due to engineering diversions.

Diverted away from what route?

There have certainly been "overnight" (or late in the evening/ very early morning) TPE services from Sheffield to Manchester timed via Huddersfield in case the Hope Valley line was closed/ to keep diversionary knowledge up etc.

I can't remember whether the route was via Penistone or via the muddle of lines around Wakefield, but Sheffield - Huddersfield has been a journey by 185s (albeit they presumably didn't actually stop at Huddersfield).

 

[Sleeperwaking]

Sorry to ask a stupid question but it's one I keep wondering, what exactly required to meet sprinter timing? Am I understanding correctly the 185's have the performance but are too heavy?

Sprinter timing is about meeting the requirements for the Sprinter differential speed category. If you want a very technical explanation, look up report T996 by the RSSB - you'll need to create a SPARK account to download it, but I think anyone can do so. Essentially, SP speeds are restricted to fleets which have low track forces (something which is heavily (*ahem*) influenced by weight, but also by bogie / suspension design). The 185s would have to lose quite a bit of weight to get to Sprinter - I think they're RA5, and they'd need to get to a light RA2.

 

[matchmaker]

I've never been on a 185, but it sounds like they'd be ideal for Scotrail if the refurbished HSTs don't all get delivered. They'd presumably have the acceleration to match a short HST's timings, and a top speed that matches or exceeds the vast majority of the track. And the axle load must be less than a 43. Only trouble is that they'd have to be run in pairs for capacity, and that would break the franchise stipulation of a through-the-train trolley service...

A 185 and a Class 43 have the same route availability.

 

[keith1879]

This is what I don't get about this board. The 185's are ideally suited to the services they run. Powerful, fast, reliable, decent environmental impact ( for a diesel), comfortable. The overhead bins are massive and will easily take a normal case, the internal standards are high, there is a good ratio of tables, there are plugs and wifi and there is adequate first class provision. They are good trains yet they are hated here. I don't get it.

The issues are obvious: insufficient carriages / insufficient units. The gangway issue isn't really an issue and would just be used by people here to complain when they run as single units!

It's almost as if the units have been designed to meet widely varying requirements on different parts of their journey really . It would take about 2 minutes to turn up posts which argue that the class 185 should not run through to the airport because there is no demand for it to do so ......and now apparently there is insufficient luggage space for the hordes travelling to the airport. Well actually I tend to agree - there is insufficient luggage space ....but what could be done about it? reduce the number of seats ....that might be a bit of a problem. These trains are a compromise and like all compromises they are not perfect - they are however adequate (in quality - sadly we could do with more quantity but hopefully by the end of this year the board will be bitching about 5 coach trains rather than 3).

 

[CambrianCoast]

If they were reworked to be lighter, wonder if they potentially could plug any gaps and exclusively run the Manchester-Shrewsbury-Cardiff services even if it’d be on a short term basis and free up a considerable chunk of the TfW fleet to strengthen elsewhere whilst they’re waiting for their new trains to arrive?

 

[BMIFlyer]

There have certainly been "overnight" (or late in the evening/ very early morning) TPE services from Sheffield to Manchester timed via Huddersfield in case the Hope Valley line was closed/ to keep diversionary knowledge up etc.

I can't remember whether the route was via Penistone or via the muddle of lines around Wakefield, but Sheffield - Huddersfield has been a journey by 185s (albeit they presumably didn't actually stop at Huddersfield).

Sheffield to Manchester runs (non stop) via Meadowhall, Moorthorpe, Hare Park Junction, Wakefield Kirkgate, Healy Mills, Mirfield, then to Huddersfield and the North TPE route to Manchester.

 

[Mugby]

I was under the impression that when 185s run in 'eco mode', it was the middle car engine which switches off.

Last Saturday, however, I travelled on one and it was the leading car which was silent. Does it vary?

 

[BMIFlyer]

I was under the impression that when 185s run in 'eco mode', it was the middle car engine which switches off.

Last Saturday, however, I travelled on one and it was the leading car which was silent. Does it vary?

Varies yes.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Sprinter timing is about meeting the requirements for the Sprinter differential speed category. If you want a very technical explanation, look up report T996 by the RSSB - you'll need to create a SPARK account to download it, but I think anyone can do so. Essentially, SP speeds are restricted to fleets which have low track forces (something which is heavily (*ahem*) influenced by weight, but also by bogie / suspension design). The 185s would have to lose quite a bit of weight to get to Sprinter - I think they're RA5, and they'd need to get to a light RA2.

Thanks I'll have a look although your simple explanation makes sense. Does the document also cover other timings mentioned here?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

If managed correctly by the on board staff, you can fill the overhead luggage racks with all the cabin sized bags.

Large cases go on the stacks or the bike area if no bikes are reserved for the trains journey.

Not difficult at all. It would help if passengers did what they were asked of them on the PA regarding luggage storage.

That does require some pro-active work from the conductor to actively manage and organise the luggage on board, both from an originating station and at major stations where dwell times allow. This is also the same of buggys and prams. Suitable intervention can direct people to useable space making their journey more comfortable. Conductors aren't trained to do so which to me is a real shame. It actually makes the on board job easier for the conductor and catering crew.

Varies yes.

Assuming all 3 engines are actually operational, a rare occurrence these days! XD

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was under the impression that when 185s run in 'eco mode', it was the middle car engine which switches off.

Last Saturday, however, I travelled on one and it was the leading car which was silent. Does it vary?

It rotates around so all engines have the same number of hours and so the overhaul requirements remain the same for each one.

 

[rebmcr]

I was under the impression that when 185s run in 'eco mode', it was the middle car engine which switches off.

Last Saturday, however, I travelled on one and it was the leading car which was silent. Does it vary?

Indeed, this is to make sure that all of the engines have balanced running hours.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

There have certainly been "overnight" (or late in the evening/ very early morning) TPE services from Sheffield to Manchester timed via Huddersfield in case the Hope Valley line was closed/ to keep diversionary knowledge up etc.

I can't remember whether the route was via Penistone or via the muddle of lines around Wakefield, but Sheffield - Huddersfield has been a journey by 185s (albeit they presumably didn't actually stop at Huddersfield).

There certainly have (and maybe still are) journeys between Manchester and Sheffield via Huddersfield AND Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

Thanks I'll have a look although your simple explanation makes sense. Does the document also cover other timings mentioned here?

Sort of, but it mainly focuses on SP. There is a nice Venn diagram which shows the distribution of different classes across the differential speed categories, with the Class 185 sat in no man's land along with LHCS. Basically, they conclude that the current system is a bit of a mess, saying:

"Mapping of the current classifications and vehicle types has highlighted that there is a large level of overlap and ambiguity in the current system. It is also important to recognise that the present classification of vehicles shown is in many cases not consistent with the original intention of the lettered categories."

As a rule of thumb, if a train is a multiple unit that complies with "modern" braking distances and is RA3 or lower, it should be able to use MU / EMU / DMU speeds.

 

[superkev]

This months Modern Railways (good read this month) lists cancellations of Voyagers on the Dawlish stretch due to sea conditions. Cross country a home for the 185s perhaps?
K

 

[Esker-pades]

This months Modern Railways (good read this month) lists cancellations of Voyagers on the Dawlish stretch due to sea conditions. Cross country a home for the 185s perhaps?
K

Most XC services in that part of the world need to be 125mph max. The 185 would loose too much time on other parts of the network for them to work.

 

[matacaster]

I wonder how quickly a 185 would get up the devon banks?

 

[Bungle965]

This months Modern Railways (good read this month) lists cancellations of Voyagers on the Dawlish stretch due to sea conditions. Cross country a home for the 185s perhaps?
K

For every 220 you replace you lose 40 or so seats, XC needs more capacity not less!
Sam

 

[Jozhua]

For every 220 you replace you lose 40 or so seats, XC needs more capacity not less!
Sam

They would be an improvement on the 170's though!