Query on Super Off Peak reservation

[ollyrogers]

Hi all,

I’m travelling from York to Otford tomorrow, August 23, on the below ticket.

The machine, in its ineffable wisdom, has given the following reservation for the SouthEastern leg of the journey - does this tie me to that specific train or can I break my journey at Kings Cross and step out for a nice spot of lunch at Coal Drops? I’m slightly confused by it as (to my knowledge) SE don’t offer reserved seating, so I’m struggling to see the reason for this coupon.

It is a Super Off Peak ticket, which I didn’t think tied me to specific trains in the same way as Advance fares - please put my mind at rest!!

Thanks in advance!

 

[jfollows]

You can use any train on any valid route that complies with the 1L restriction code (see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/1L/), you are not tied to a specific train but perhaps the system you used made a reservation for you based on the itinerary you gave it to start with.

Not valid for arrivals into:

• London Terminals (except as shown below) after 04:29 and before 11:17;
• London Liverpool Street after 04:29 and before 10:00;
• London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 11:26;
• London Euston after 07:19 and before 11:31;
• Stevenage after 03:59 and before 10:55;
• Luton after 02:29 and before 11:03;
• Luton Airport Parkway after 02:29 and before 11:16;
• Bedford after 04:29 and before 10:30;
• Watford Junction after 06:43 and before 10:45;
• Milton Keynes Central after 06:38 and before 10:49.

Restrictions will be lifted for trains departing from and arriving at London Kings Cross and Stevenage on a Friday until further notice.

No restrictions beyond London.

 

[ollyrogers]

Thankyou very much - just wanted to ensure I didn’t end up on the receiving end of a £50 clobbering. That is most helpful!

 

[fandroid]

Pure railway absurdity. Creating a seat reservation coupon for a service where seats cannot be reserved and for use with a ticket that allows the passenger to use any train that is outside the restrictions. Just bin it, or keep it as an exhibit in a personal museum of meaningless nonsense

 

[MrJeeves]

I’m slightly confused by it as (to my knowledge) SE don’t offer reserved seating, so I’m struggling to see the reason for this coupon.

For some context and explanation:

For advance fares to be able to be offered, train services must be marked as having reservations available in railway data feeds. However, this means people buying normal flexible tickets now also get the option of reserving a "seat" on these services, too, which is what happened with you.

Most booking sites give you an option to reserve a seat when buying a ticket, usually checked by default. You should be able to avoid getting this needless coupon by deselecting this before purchasing your ticket.

In this case, Southeastern doesn't offer specific seat reservations for this service (or any, I think?), which means that you end up with a "counted place" reservation instead of a seat.

 

[Watershed]

For some context and explanation:

For advance fares to be able to be offered, train services must be marked as having reservations available in railway data feeds. However, this means people buying normal flexible tickets now also get the option of reserving a "seat" on these services, too, which is what happened with you.

Most booking sites give you an option to reserve a seat when buying a ticket, usually checked by default. You should be able to avoid getting this needless coupon by deselecting this before purchasing your ticket.

In this case, Southeastern doesn't offer specific seat reservations for this service (or any, I think?), which means that you end up with a "counted place" reservation instead of a seat.

In this instance, seat reservations couldn’t have been deselected, since both Grand Central and LNER continue to falsely mark their trains as ”reservations compulsory” in the timetable data. An online booking site couldn’t sell a ticket in conjunction with an itinerary including their services without issuing a reservation.

What’s more nonsensical here is Southeastern offering Advance tickets in the first place - if you don’t have real seat reservations, that’s probably a clue that you shouldn’t be offering Advances - and then failing to prevent the issuance of pointless “counted place” reservations in conjunction with walk-up tickets.

 

[ollyrogers]

Ah, okay, thankyou all - this seems to be making a bit more sense now. The menace in me thinks I should count this as a “super coupon”, entitling me to revoke the seating rights of any one passenger and claim their seat, as I’m entirely confident nobody else travelling on the service will have a coupon which can counter it!

 

[MrJeeves]

In this instance, seat reservations couldn’t have been deselected, since both Grand Central and LNER continue to falsely mark their trains as ”reservations compulsory” in the timetable data. An online booking site couldn’t sell a ticket in conjunction with an itinerary including their services without issuing a reservation.

I completely ignored the full journey here and was only thinking about Southeastern, haha.

What’s more nonsensical here is Southeastern offering Advance tickets in the first place - if you don’t have real seat reservations, that’s probably a clue that you shouldn’t be offering Advances - and then failing to prevent the issuance of pointless “counted place” reservations in conjunction with walk-up tickets.

It's an interesting point, but I don't really see the issue. Advances, to me, aren't a case of "you're guaranteed a seat on this train", just an extra discount (most of the time) in exchange for no flexibility.

 

[Wallsendmag]

What’s more nonsensical here is Southeastern offering Advance tickets in the first place - if you don’t have real seat reservations, that’s probably a clue that you shouldn’t be offering Advances - and then failing to prevent the issuance of pointless “counted place” reservations in conjunction with walk-up tickets.

Just the same as Northern, nothing unusual there.

 

[CyrusWuff]

What’s more nonsensical here is Southeastern offering Advance tickets in the first place - if you don’t have real seat reservations, that’s probably a clue that you shouldn’t be offering Advances - and then failing to prevent the issuance of pointless “counted place” reservations in conjunction with walk-up tickets.

No different to various other TOCs. It's only fairly recently that East Midlands have returned to offering specific seat reservations on the InterCity services out of St Pancras. Also Chiltern, London Northwestern and TfW (among others) only do counted place reservations despite having journey times in excess of 90 minutes.

 

[Haywain]

No different to various other TOCs. It's only fairly recently that East Midlands have returned to offering specific seat reservations on the InterCity services out of St Pancras. Also Chiltern, London Northwestern and TfW (among others) only do counted place reservations despite having journey times in excess of 90 minutes.

And Greater Anglia.

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
What’s more nonsensical here is Southeastern offering Advance tickets in the first place - if you don’t have real seat reservations, that’s probably a clue that you shouldn’t be offering Advances - and then failing to prevent the issuance of pointless “counted place” reservations in conjunction with walk-up tickets.

I disagree - I don't see why that follows.

 

[crablab]

I disagree - I don't see why that follows.

Where counted place is offered on local or metro services, as in this example, the reservation is meaningless. It doesn't guarantee you entry (or even a seat!) if the train is crush loaded and nor does it help prevent such loadings, as most people will travel on open tickets or contactless.

Counted place is also offered on Thameslink so Advances can be sold. Does GTR really want to enforce that someone can't get a service 2 minutes later from Farringdon to London Bridge on an Advance? It's futile & counter productive.

 

[ollyrogers]

Counted place is also offered on Thameslink so Advances can be sold. Does GTR really want to enforce that someone can't get a service 2 minutes later from Farringdon to London Bridge on an Advance? It's futile & counter productive.

This raises more questions for me, as the final leg of the journey is from Sevenoaks to Otford, which is run by Thameslink, yet I don’t appear to have a similar seat reservation coupon for this leg.

 

[crablab]

I don’t appear to have a similar seat reservation coupon for this leg.

The example I gave has reservations available. Looking at a sample of Sevenoaks to Otford, reservations aren't available on those services and accordingly you haven't been issued a reservation coupon.

 

[paul1609]

What’s more nonsensical here is Southeastern offering Advance tickets in the first place - if you don’t have real seat reservations, that’s probably a clue that you shouldn’t be offering Advances - and then failing to prevent the issuance of pointless “counted place” reservations in conjunction with walk-up tickets.

What do you consider to be the minimum journey that an advance should be available for?
Southeasterns target here is selling unsold capacity on the Kent Coast to London Route. If you take the off peak return fare as the marker a Margate to London Terminals route not hs1 is more expensive than one for Liverpool LIME Street to Leeds. Distance wise Margate to Charing Cross is further than Manchester to York. So presumably you'd ban most TPE advances as well as Northern ones?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Where counted place is offered on local or metro services, as in this example, the reservation is meaningless. It doesn't guarantee you entry (or even a seat!) if the train is crush loaded and nor does it help prevent such loadings, as most people will travel on open tickets or contactless.

An Advance for a local or metro journey is I agree daft.

However that wasn't my point.

Advances for longer journeys with 'counted place' reservations seem quite legit to me - ignore the confusing internal 'counted place' rubric used by the rail industry, as from a passenger's point of view it's 'booked train only'. It works and seems to be worthwhile on many longer routes, including those of SWR, Southern and Southeastern.

(Besides, many people don't always pay a great deal of attention to the "real seat reservations" that come with what Watershed would likely consider 'proper' Advance tickets!)

 

[fandroid]

Counted place seats are legit for longer distance services that don't have specific seat reservations, assuming the Advance price is undercutting their normal fares. It's part of the overall flexibility/no flexibility deal and should encourage use of lighter-used services

 

[Hadders]

Counted place seats are legit for longer distance services that don't have specific seat reservations, assuming the Advance price is undercutting their normal fares. It's part of the overall flexibility/no flexibility deal and should encourage use of lighter-used services

I would rather see a Super Off Peak/Off Peak/Anytime pricing structure on such services (like LNR's Euston to Crewe service)

 

[Haywain]

I would rather see a Super Off Peak/Off Peak/Anytime pricing structure on such services (like LNR's Euston to Crewe service)

I wouldn't. That would remove any benefit from knowing when you are going to be travelling.

 

[crablab]

That would remove any benefit from knowing when you are going to be travelling.

Hmm, but if you want to be competitive against the car I'm not sure Advances are the way to go, unless they can be sold clearly below the cost of fuel for a journey (which seems to be the mental benchmark comparison most people use)

I'm coming back down the ECML on Monday. I knew approximately when I wanted to travel, but I have a flexible ticket which means the diversion (and BoJ) I now need to take can be accommodated with no hassle and no additional administration (unless I want to rebook seat reservations).

That could similarly be accommodated if I was driving (unlikely, I don't have a car). But I'd have a massive headache doing that if I had an Advance.

 

[MrJeeves]

I would rather see a Super Off Peak/Off Peak/Anytime pricing structure on such services (like LNR's Euston to Crewe service)

In GTR's case, they do this as well as Advances, of course!

 

[Joe Paxton]

I would rather see a Super Off Peak/Off Peak/Anytime pricing structure on such services (like LNR's Euston to Crewe service)

I wouldn't. That would remove any benefit from knowing when you are going to be travelling.

Haywain - who is the beneficiary you refer to, the passenger or the operator?

 

[Haywain]

Haywain - who is the beneficiary you refer to, the passenger or the operator?

The passenger. If I can plan a couple of months ahead and book my trains, why shouldn't I benefit from a discounted fare for doing so?

Hmm, but if you want to be competitive against the car I'm not sure Advances are the way to go, unless they can be sold clearly below the cost of fuel for a journey (which seems to be the mental benchmark comparison most people use)

So stuff those who don't, or prefer not to, drive because it doesn't suit some other agenda?

 

[crablab]

So stuff those who don't, or prefer not to, drive because it doesn't suit some other agenda?

If the only affordable way to travel on the railway increasingly becomes via fixed itineraries the result will be, IMHO, modal shift away from the railway to more flexible methods of travel. The railway is already at a disadvantage by offering a fixed timetable that doesn't run 24/7 or door to door.

As I said, I don't own a car. That doesn't mean I can/want to plan my itinerary around fixed travel where if I miss my train I'm, as you put it, stuffed.

 

[Haywain]

That doesn't mean I can/want to plan my itinerary around fixed travel where if I miss my train I'm, as you put it, stuffed.

So where is the benefit in removing cheaper fares for those who can plan?

 

[crablab]

So where is the benefit in removing cheaper fares for those who can plan?

In the context of this thread, where we are discussing counted place reservations on high frequency metro services, I think there is little 'benefit' to the passenger in being forced to take a very specific itinerary on (to all intents and purposes) non-reservable services.

It has everything to do with revenue allocation and nothing to do with improving passenger experience or offering good value (note *value*, of which price is a component but not the whole), as can be seen from Advances marketed at marginal rates below the flexible ticket.

 

[Haywain]

In the context of this thread, where we are discussing counted place reservations on high frequency metro services

The context of the thread was that Advance tickets should not be available on any services that did not have 'proper' reservations. It wasn't limited to high frequency metro services.

 

[paul1609]

In the context of this thread, where we are discussing counted place reservations on high frequency metro services, I think there is little 'benefit' to the passenger in being forced to take a very specific itinerary on (to all intents and purposes) non-reservable services.

It has everything to do with revenue allocation and nothing to do with improving passenger experience or offering good value (note *value*, of which price is a component but not the whole), as can be seen from Advances marketed at marginal rates below the flexible ticket.

The service the Ops reservation on is the 13..17 hourly service from Charing Cross to Hastings. Are you going to ban advanced on all regional services?

 

[crablab]

The service the Ops reservation on is the 13..17 hourly service from Charing Cross to Hastings.

Between 1300 and 1400 today, there are 6 services leaving London Bridge that call at Sevenoaks.

Are you going to ban advanced on all regional services?

I can't "ban" anything. However I don't believe Advances should be offered for a 30 minute journey, with such a high frequency and where it's not practically possible to actually reserve a seat.
I have (slightly) more sympathy with Cross Country selling advances between Birmingham and Leicester, for example.

My general opinion would be that Advance fares should be restricted to longer distance intercity and some regional (which often link towns and cities over longer distances) services, where a seat can be reserved. Although I do appreciate that there are some regional services, eg. Thameslink (Brighton to London), where it isn't possible to issue a seat reservation, so I'd avoid an arbitrary rule about that.

However I'm not a fan of the Northern practice of issuing Advances for a 15 minute journey, or Thameslink issuing an Advance for part of an itinerary that goes through the core.

But I retain my reservations )) about the rise in fixed Advance itineraries over offering good value flexible fares. I see people buying and throwing away Advances when they miss their train because fixed itineraries are pushed as the 'cheapest' option, and people find the rules around flexible tickets complicated and the advantages not always well explained.

I think I'll bow out now as I've made my points, others have disagreed and we've had a good debate whilst going a bit off topic from the OP's original question!