Question: What is the max speed in which a train can pass a station?

[ltdt99]

So me and my friend are into trains, of course. And we were having an argument about how fast a train can pass a station. I think it’s at least 100 mph. He thinks it’s less. It’s still an unsolved mystery for us. So please answer me. Can a train pass a station at 100 mph?

 

[ChrisHogan]

Yes. Trains run through Slough at 125 mph on the main lines

 

[Darandio]

And 125mph at plenty of other locations too.

 

[ltdt99]

Thanks, now this is solved and I can finally sleep.

 

[zwk500]

As far as I'm aware, there is no upper limit to the linespeed of a platform line. However once you get above 125mph you need a barrage of safety measures that it's usually easier to build separate passing and stopping lines (E.g. Stratford and Ebbsfleet Internationals).

 

[ainsworth74]

However once you get above 125mph you need a barrage of safety measures that it's usually easier to build separate passing and stopping lines (E.g. Stratford and Ebbsfleet Internationals).

I was under the impression that for a new build station the speed is lower as well? For instance you couldn't build a station like Northallerton or Slough today without the above barrage of safety measures?

 

[trebor79]

As far as I'm aware, there is no upper limit to the linespeed of a platform line. However once you get above 125mph you need a barrage of safety measures that it's usually easier to build separate passing and stopping lines (E.g. Stratford and Ebbsfleet Internationals).

Why? 125mph or 250mph you're going to be atomised if you fall in front of a padding train.
In fact arguably there's less risk with a faster train as it will take less time to pass.

I'm sure I've seen YouTube videos of TGVs passing through stations at much higher speeds. Is it a UK thing?

 

[zwk500]

Why? 125mph or 250mph you're going to be atomised if you fall in front of a padding train.
In fact arguably there's less risk with a faster train as it will take less time to pass.

I don't know, I don't write the rules. There's a set of standards for 125mph and another set for higher speeds. I can't remember what the standards are for each band and what the bands are. However the risk does increase with speed due to the air turbulence.

I'm sure I've seen YouTube videos of TGVs passing through stations at much higher speeds. Is it a UK thing?

I believe all LGVs have non-stopping trains on non-platform lines.

 

[Hadders]

Why? 125mph or 250mph you're going to be atomised if you fall in front of a padding train.
In fact arguably there's less risk with a faster train as it will take less time to pass.

I suspect it's to do with the turbulence that passing trains cause. Higher speed means more turbulence and the risk of people of objects getting sucked towards or onto the tracks.

A few years ago at Stevenage I witnessed a buggy (thankfully without a child) sucked onto the tracks by a passing train.

 

[jfowkes]

I wonder if there's also an element of time to it. If you're standing on the platform edge for some reason and suddenly clock a train 500m away bearing down on you, you've got a lot more time to get yourself out of danger of it's going at 125mph than at 250mph.

 

[Inversnecky]

There’s some hair raising YouTube videos of Shinkansen passing: barriers and warning on the platform.

 

[Horizon22]

I suspect it's to do with the turbulence that passing trains cause. Higher speed means more turbulence and the risk of people of objects getting sucked towards or onto the tracks.

A few years ago at Stevenage I witnessed a buggy (thankfully without a child) sucked onto the tracks by a passing train.

Quite a few places including Stevenage (I think?), Slough & Reading have signs and occasionally announcements to ensure buggies are kept well back and brakes on.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

For new platforms I imagine the maximum linespeed is related to the width of the platform, i.e. ability to stand well back while a train passes. There are plenty of existing platforms with 125mph linespeed, nothing higher than that but then there are no linespeeds higher than 125mph apart from HS1 in this country.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Quite a few places including Stevenage (I think?), Slough & Reading have signs and occasionally announcements to ensure buggies are kept well back and brakes on.

Northallerton has sensors which trigger a 'stand back' announcement if one gets to close.

 

[Hadders]

Quite a few places including Stevenage (I think?), Slough & Reading have signs and occasionally announcements to ensure buggies are kept well back and brakes on.

I've never heard an announcement at Stevenage about buggies and I don't think there are any signs either.

 

[Bald Rick]

As far as I'm aware, there is no upper limit to the linespeed of a platform line. However once you get above 125mph you need a barrage of safety measures that it's usually easier to build separate passing and stopping lines (E.g. Stratford and Ebbsfleet Internationals).

above 125mph the platform must be proved clear of passengers, or have physical barriers preventing access to the platform train interface (Ie a fence, which makes the platform effectively unusable). I’m not aware of any platforms of >125mph anywhere in the world that have platform edge doors.

I was under the impression that for a new build station the speed is lower as well? For instance you couldn't build a station like Northallerton or Slough today without the above barrage of safety measures?

I don’t think so, but there would need to be detailed risk assessment. The relatively recent East Mids Parkway has the Down Fast at 120mph, and the standards don’t change between 120 and 125.

I'm sure I've seen YouTube videos of TGVs passing through stations at much higher speeds. Is it a UK thing?

not with open platforms next to them you haven’t.

 

[Starmill]

Northallerton has sensors which trigger a 'stand back' announcement if one gets to close.

Sensors that detect buggies specifically?

Why? 125mph or 250mph you're going to be atomised if you fall in front of a padding train.
In fact arguably there's less risk with a faster train as it will take less time to pass.

I'm sure I've seen YouTube videos of TGVs passing through stations at much higher speeds. Is it a UK thing?

I think that the high speed rail TSI restrict the speed trains can pass a platform face at. It's not particularly relevant here because there's next to nowhere where trains run at more than 125 miles / hour, but where they could, they can't pass open platforms, which is the reason that they're always provided with through lines on HS1.

 

[PG]

I suspect it's to do with the turbulence that passing trains cause. Higher speed means more turbulence and the risk of people of objects getting sucked towards or onto the tracks.

I'm sure that a couple of years after HST's were introduced on the Western Region, as well as the yellow sign telling folk to stand behind the yellow line, there was another sign which mentioned air turbulence and the danger of being swept off the platform. Younger PG used to stand right up to (but not over) the yellow line and feel the whoosh as a screaming Valenta rushed past - Happy days

 

[plugwash]

Why? 125mph or 250mph you're going to be atomised if you fall in front of a padding train.

Faster trains give you less time to react and move away from the edge, they also cause more turbulence which means the safe distance from the edge is greater.

But I suspect the reasons for 125MPH specifically are more historic, for better or worse, out current H&S regime treats new stuff far more harshly than existing stuff and 125MPH running has been a thing in the UK for a long time. While BR did some experiments with 140MPH running, those were abandoned and the only line in the UK running at more than 125MPH today is a modern build.

Even at 125MPH I believe that extra mitigations are often added when practical, such as putting fences/gates to discourage access to the fast line platforms when not in use.

 

[TheEdge]

Even at 125MPH I believe that extra mitigations are often added when practical, such as putting fences/gates to discourage access to the fast line platforms when not in use.

I think this is true for a lot of fast line platforms on smaller stations regardless of the speed. All the Crossrail stations from Shenfield to Stratford have had their fast platforms barriered off now and their linespeed is 90mph.

 

[robbeech]

There are lots of rules based around historic speeds. I suspect the rule is only 125mph because that’s simply the speed in which all but HS1 goes. Had the HST been developed to travel at 135mph and the infrastructure allowed it, I suspect that ruling would have been 135mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think this is true for a lot of fast line platforms on smaller stations regardless of the speed. All the Crossrail stations from Shenfield to Stratford have had their fast platforms barriered off now and their linespeed is 90mph.

thats suicide prevention.

 

[JonathanH]

I must say that the one that scared me most recently was Rotherham Central standing on the tram platform with a freight train passing. The thought just crossed my mind at how you could literally step in front of the train due to the small difference on height between the platform and the running line, even though the speed was a lot less than the speeds being talked about here.

The important thing, whatever the speed, does seem to be to give people enough space to be able to stand back from the platform edge.

 

[bramling]

I suspect it's to do with the turbulence that passing trains cause. Higher speed means more turbulence and the risk of people of objects getting sucked towards or onto the tracks.

A few years ago at Stevenage I witnessed a buggy (thankfully without a child) sucked onto the tracks by a passing train.

Stevenage has always been a bit of a nasty one due to the way there often tends to be people congregating at the bottom of the stairwells. They could do with yellow hatching all over the platform in those areas.

 

[brad465]

above 125mph the platform must be proved clear of passengers, or have physical barriers preventing access to the platform train interface (Ie a fence, which makes the platform effectively unusable). I’m not aware of any platforms of >125mph anywhere in the world that have platform edge doors.

Are there any cab signalling systems either live somewhere in the world, or in development, that have some form of additional "smart" technology, which say allows full speed passed an empty platform where passengers have been barred access, but when accessible to passengers the cab signalling restricts the linespeed through the platform? Such a system would have to be linked to an electronic barrier/door that stops platform access, such as the continent-bound platform at Ebbsfleet International which only opens shortly before a Eurostar is due to arrive.

 

[theageofthetra]

Sensors that detect buggies specifically?


I think that the high speed rail TSI restrict the speed trains can pass a platform face at. It's not particularly relevant here because there's next to nowhere where trains run at more than 125 miles / hour, but where they could, they can't pass open platforms, which is the reason that they're always provided with through lines on HS1.

Wouldn't be an issue if all prams had a brake that is permanently on like airport trolleys. You have to press something to release them.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are lots of rules based around historic speeds. I suspect the rule is only 125mph because that’s simply the speed in which all but HS1 goes. Had the HST been developed to travel at 135mph and the infrastructure allowed it, I suspect that ruling would have been 135mph.

IIRC the rules regarding yellow lines and warning notice requirements were first brought in for speeds of passenger trains above 100 mph, and freights above 60 mph (more turbulence), and when the rail group standard was still publically available a couple of years ago this hadn’t changed. But as we know yellow lines are applied in numerous places where they’re not really required per the rules.

I don’t think there’s any difference in allowed speed for new build platforms, however the width of a new platform would presumably have to allow for the intended speed with no dispensations on the clear area being allowed.

As you suggest the 125 mph upper limit is probably fairly arbitrary, I expect when the HST arrived on the scene they didn’t expect anything much faster…

Edit to add:

Something I can’t remember, did the introduction of container trains result in the simultaneous introduction of yellow lines (for excess turbulence), or did they happen retrospectively after analysis of safety incidents?

 

[GB]

Wouldn't be an issue if all prams had a brake that is permanently on like airport trolleys. You have to press something to release them.

Could have a detrimental effect if you needed to push the pram out of harms way for any reason.

 

[zwk500]

Could have a detrimental effect if you needed to push the pram out of harms way for any reason.

There's also user fatigue to worry about. You're generally not pushing an Airport Trolley for more than 15 mins at a time. You could easily be pushing a buggy around for hours on end. Not to mention that if the brake fails (e.g. because the toddler throws a strop and thrashes about in the pram braking the linkage) then you've now got no buggy.
The footbrake most prams have is sufficient to hold it against any turbulent low pressure effects if it's parked sensibly (e.g. with wheel parallel to the track) and securely.

 

[Inversnecky]

Wouldn't be an issue if all prams had a brake that is permanently on like airport trolleys. You have to press something to release them.

But a buggy is a lot lighter and flimsier than a pram - even with a brake, it can be callied off by a big gust.