Quick question regarding Advance Singles

[466.networkers]

Hi,

I will be travelling from Sheerness to Birmingham tomorrow on an Advance Single.

As it is a Bank Holiday the public transport (excluding trains) is on a Sunday service, and I have no way to get to Sheerness in time to get my connecting train from Sittingbourne to St Pancras.

Would it be ok to start my journey at Sittingbourne as I will be able to get a lift over there? Or do I have to start my journey at Sheerness as my ticket says?

Thanks in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Advance tickets allow no break of journey. You need to start your journey at the origin station and finish at the destination.

 

[yorkie]

Are you asking us for the rules? You have to start at Sheerness.

Or are you asking us if you will get away with it? Well, that depends on whether there are barriers at Sittingbourne, if so how the barriers are set up, what the mood / knowledge of the barrier staff, all sorts of factors. We couldn't possibly say!

Of course, we all know how ineffective barriers are, but I couldn't possibly comment further...! as I said in another thread, I don't want to be seen to be encouraging a breach of the terms of the ticket, even if the ticket terms are bonkers.

 

[MikeWh]

Hi,

I will be travelling from Sheerness to Birmingham tomorrow on an Advance Single.

As it is a Bank Holiday the public transport (excluding trains) is on a Sunday service, and I have no way to get to Sheerness in time to get my connecting train from Sittingbourne to St Pancras.

Would it be ok to start my journey at Sittingbourne as I will be able to get a lift over there? Or do I have to start my journey at Sheerness as my ticket says?

Thanks in advance.

Is there no way your lift could get you to Sheerness? The Isle of Sheppey isn't exactly big so surely a detour into Sheerness at that time in the morning won't add much? Alternatively, could you get to one of the other branch line stations as they are unlikely to be barriered?

 

[466.networkers]

It's ok - I've managed to get a lift into Sheerness thus starting my journey as my ticket states.

Thanks for all your help

 

[N Levers]

Not wanting to condone fraud but if the barriers were closed at Sittingbourne a £1.60 single to Kemsley would get you through.

 

[All Line Rover]

Not wanting to condone fraud but if the barriers were closed at Sittingbourne a £1.60 single to Kemsley would get you through.

Although starting short/finishing short in the eyes of ATOC may be "fraud", in my eyes, if you have bought a ticket covering travel between A to C via B, but only travel between B and C and leave your seat available for others to use between A and B, I don't see how you have committed "fraud", since your ticket covered travel between B and C in the first place.

If you buy a ticket for a concert, and the concert runs from 10am to 3pm but you turn up at 12noon instead, you haven't committed "fraud" either! The only reason ATOC have made these stupid Advance ticket rules is to cover for the ridiculous pricing structure of UK train tickets. (I'm not complaining, though, as it allows for many loopholes! )

 

[AlterEgo]

Advances are point to point fares and quota controlled. If you want to go from London to York and there's no fare on the 1000 train for this journey except walk on fares, and you then see that there's still a £30 single to Newcastle, if you buy that you deprive someone of making the best value of that fare by only going to York.

TOCs don't want to see that...

 

[yorkie]

Advances are point to point fares and quota controlled. If you want to go from London to York and there's no fare on the 1000 train for this journey except walk on fares, and you then see that there's still a £30 single to Newcastle, if you buy that you deprive someone of making the best value of that fare by only going to York.

TOCs don't want to see that...

A highly hypothetical scenario, and not one I see any evidence of. If the quota is sold out on the 1000 to York, it'll be sold out to Newcastle.

It is true though, that for short journeys where AP tickets do not exist (not the same as the fare existing but being sold out) it can be cheaper to buy a ticket for a longer journey. It's possible to prevent people doing this, and enforce the restrictions in some cases, but not if the customers use their brains and anticipate such enforcement and finding ways round it. But it would not be appropriate to comment further, so I won't!

 

[OwlMan]

Not wanting to condone fraud but if the barriers were closed at Sittingbourne a £1.60 single to Kemsley would get you through.

The only problem with this is that if it was noticed that instead of travelling to Kemsley you used a advance ticket that was technically invalid to use, you may have provided evidence that you knew what you were doing and were deliberately fare evading.

Peter

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Although starting short/finishing short in the eyes of ATOC may be "fraud", in my eyes, if you have bought a ticket covering travel between A to C via B, but only travel between B and C and leave your seat available for others to use between A and B, I don't see how you have committed "fraud", since your ticket covered travel between B and C in the first place.

You may not see it as "fraud".
However, by failing to comply with the terms of the contract, any passenger starting short is, without doubt, in breach of their agreed conditions when buying the ticket. It does (potentially or actually) deprive the TOC of revenue, but they do not need to trouble themselves with the Fraud Act; it is a breach of Conditions. In such circumstances, any passenger appealling to your common sense interpretation of the Conditions which apply to the cheap Advance tickets will be trusting their finances to luck.

I agree with your post in terms of sentiment and common sence.
I refute your post in terms of advice and robust interpretation of the Conditions.

[I've discussed a particular exception to the robustness of the Conditions which apply to stopping short on an Advance ticket, but that analysis (which has not been tested in the Courts) does not apply to this question.]

 

[tony_mac]

You may not see it as "fraud".
However, by failing to comply with the terms of the contract, any passenger starting short is, without doubt, in breach of their agreed conditions when buying the ticket.

I disagree with the 'without doubt'.

The conditions you (possibly) agree to actually say that if there is any restriction on starting short it will be made clear in the train company's notices and publications.

As they don't normally do this, I don't see any breach.

I also say possibly, as it seems like getting a copy of the conditions of carriage may not actually be possible.

The unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations could also apply, and that any such restrictive term would only be held to be lawful if it is clearly pointed out to the consumer, and not 'buried in the small print' (of some document that they probably can't even get access to at the point of sale, although not quite with a 'beware of the tiger' sign.)

Literally, the terms may say that you can charge an extra £140 on a £10 ticket because the passenger chose to get a bus rather than wait for a delayed train. I don't believe that would pass any test of 'fairness', but these things are unlikely to ever get to court.

 

[yorkie]

In theory, if I get a London to Poppleton Advance ticket (say 20:00 from KGX on a weekday, giving a 22 min connection in York for the last Poppleton train) and the EC train is delayed missing the last train to Poppleton, I would be breaching the conditions if I did not insist that the TOC gave me a taxi, even if I was happy to cycle/take a lift/get a bus. However that is only because you can't "break your journey" and they consider finishing short to be counted as a break of journey, but it is debatable if that is "made clear" (enough). If a TOC took someone to court over saving them money by not taking a taxi in such circumstances, it would be a very 'interesting' case, to say the least! I wonder if the TOC would then claim they suffered "losses" by me not incurring the costs of providing a taxi? If so that would be an absurd argument.

Mind you, the legal system in this country is not exactly based on what is fair, or morally right, so I really don't know what the outcome of such a case may be. I can imagine what the media would think of it though!

 

[466.networkers]

The thing with what I was planning on doing was starting my journey at a later but also a changing point (trains from Sheerness terminate at Sittingbourne) ...

Would that make any difference if say I had got the train from Sheerness but went outside the station through the barriers to go to the cashpoint/meet someone/have a cigarette etc ....

Just to reiterate I started my journey at Sheerness as my ticket stated and also finished my journey at Birmingham New Street as my ticket and reservation state.

 

[MikeWh]

Would that make any difference if say I had got the train from Sheerness but went outside the station through the barriers to go to the cashpoint/meet someone/have a cigarette etc ....

Changing trains is not a break of journey. You are allowed to leave railway premises if you need to do so to walk to another station, or at the direction of railway staff. Therefore your last point is crucial ... just ask the staff where you can go to have a smoke and follow their instructions. They could follow you to ensure that you return after said smoke, but it's unlikely.

 

[SS4]

Would that make any difference if say I had got the train from Sheerness but went outside the station through the barriers to go to the cashpoint/meet someone/have a cigarette etc ....
.

AFAIK it's not classed as BOJ unless you leave station premises. How that related to smoking I'm unsure though.

edit: also what MikeWh above says