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RAAC Concrete - Any rail infrastructure affected?

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jfowkes

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Reading the news about RAAC concrete, it seems to me that it was so widely used that it's probably on the rail estate somewhere.

Obviously (hopefully) not anything critical to the running of trains - nothing safety critical, but things like stations, depots, signalling centres perhaps?

Just hoping that the railway isn't suddenly lumbered with another massive extra cost when it's already being pummelled by them.
 
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TJM

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The 1960s reinforced concrete of the Bletchley flyover wasn't considered suitable for modern purposes under East-West Rail, although I can't find many details on the precise reason?
 

swt_passenger

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The 1960s reinforced concrete of the Bletchley flyover wasn't considered suitable for modern purposes under East-West Rail, although I can't find many details on the precise reason?
That was more about bearings and defective waterproofing at joints. There’s a link to the details somewhere in one of the EWR threads, I’ll try and find it. This post includes the prior approval notice application number, I expect that it’s the Bletchley planning department site where the detailed explanation is:
Another possibility I seem to remember is seeing a video of a talk about it.
Please see my later post #20, for a link to a more recent video.
 
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adc82140

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Not that there are any left (I think), but what were the CLASP* station buildings made out of?

*Consortium of Local Authority Special Programme
 

WatcherZero

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Probably in a few, its used for roofing or non-load bearing walls so your probably looking at 50's/60's flat roofed station buildings, equipment buildings, possibly signal boxes.
 

marko2

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It seems that the standard CLASP system had timber roof and floor decks up to Mk4 of the system, and Mk5 (from late 70's onwards) used pre-cast concrete panels. The floor and roof decks bolted together and to the frame to form a diaphragm, forming an intrinsic part of the structural integrity of the system. It seems that RAAC would never have been suitable for this (and, in any case, was already falling out of favour in the late 70s).

The design life for CLASP building was apparently 60 years, so all buildings of this type that are still standing are beyond their design life.
 

davetheguard

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Not that there are any left (I think), but what were the CLASP* station buildings made out of?

*Consortium of Local Authority Special Programme

Honiton is a CLASP building, but recently partially rebuilt I think.

Not sure if any of the downside buildings at Oxford are CLASP -the upside ones, which definately were, are long gone- and even if they are, I pressume that will be demolished under the works now going on at the station?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Honiton is a CLASP building, but recently partially rebuilt I think.

Not sure if any of the downside buildings at Oxford are CLASP -the upside ones, which definately were, are long gone- and even if they are, I pressume that will be demolished under the works now going on at the station?
There are a few CLASP buildings left, Alfreton is one that springs to mind. Think there was a thread on the subject a few years ago.
 

Mikey C

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That was more about bearings and defective waterproofing at joints. There’s a link to the details somewhere in one of the EWR threads, I’ll try and find it. This post includes the prior approval notice application number, I expect that it’s the Bletchley planning department site where the detailed explanation is:
Another possibility I seem to remember is seeing a video of a talk about it. Ah, here it is, it was back in 2018, which probably predates the application to rebuild so much of it:
I imagine the Bletchley flyover issues were more related to those on various elevated motorways and flyovers built in the 60s, necessitating expensive remedial work or banning heavy vehicles from using them (e.g. the A41 flyover over the A406 at Brent Cross).
 

snowball

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I imagine the Bletchley flyover issues were more related to those on various elevated motorways and flyovers built in the 60s, necessitating expensive remedial work or banning heavy vehicles from using them (e.g. the A41 flyover over the A406 at Brent Cross).
and perhps most notably the elevated stretches of the M6 and M5 around Birmingham, which have been the subject of many rounds of work that at times seemed never-ending.
 

richw

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It clearly hasn’t just been found out about this type of construction. Has there been an incident that hasn’t been reported? Or someone suddenly decided to create issues that would probably be ok for many years with regular inspection?
 

The exile

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It clearly hasn’t just been found out about this type of construction. Has there been an incident that hasn’t been reported? Or someone suddenly decided to create issues that would probably be ok for many years with regular inspection?
The media reports suggest that while the deterioration has been a known issue for several years, it was the (relatively) recent sudden and total failure of a beam which was showing no signs of deterioration that set the cat among the pigeons.
 

Merle Haggard

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I imagine the Bletchley flyover issues were more related to those on various elevated motorways and flyovers built in the 60s, necessitating expensive remedial work or banning heavy vehicles from using them (e.g. the A41 flyover over the A406 at Brent Cross).
Don't know about those, but the contractors building the M6 viaduct at Birmingham did not adhere to the structural design and used considerably less concrete etc. This was, according to Private Eye at the time, done with the connivance of those employed to inspect the work. For years, there were speed restrictions and lane closures. The motive of course was to maximise profits dishonestly, but I don't think anyone involved was charged with corruption - although I may be wrong. Corruption was pretty rife then - remember T. Dan Smith???

The present problems seem like a re-run of High Alumina Cement and using sea dredged aggregate in making reinforced concrete (salt + steel. Who would have guessed it wasn't wise???).
 

swt_passenger

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For those still wondering about the decision making process to partially reconstruct the Bletchley flyover, I found a more specific Permanent Way Institution, (PWI), lecture on YouTube. A couple of points were water filled voids that should have been grouted, post stressing cables that were not correctly grouted, and parts of structures that were inaccessible for inspection. He also talks about 3 well known viaduct or bridge failures that informed the decision. It’s not really on topic for this new RAAC issue although I expect lack of easy access to inspect structures may be a common issue.

 
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Prime586

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It clearly hasn’t just been found out about this type of construction. Has there been an incident that hasn’t been reported? Or someone suddenly decided to create issues that would probably be ok for many years with regular inspection?

The media reports suggest that while the deterioration has been a known issue for several years, it was the (relatively) recent sudden and total failure of a beam which was showing no signs of deterioration that set the cat among the pigeons.
It wasn't the failure of a beam, as RAAC isn't strong enough to make beams from. The beam failure issues were with pre-stressed beams made with High Alumina Cement (HAC) in the 1970s. RAAC was developed as a way to make lightweight, low-load-bearing panels for flat roofs and walls.

RAAC is concrete with no aggregate that is mixed with a foaming agent that is then cured with pressurised steam in an autoclave that produces a foam-like cross section.
cross-section-of-raac-showing-voids.png

As it is full or air bubbles it has very good insulation properties and is lightweight which meant longer spans or less supporting columns could be specified as there was less weight to support, and the lack of aggregate made it very cheap to produce, but that lack of aggregate leaves it very weak, with the steel reinforcement making up most of it's strength (in regular reinforced concrete the steel handles the tension loads and the concrete handles the compressive loads).

Unfortunately, it's foam-like consistency also leaves it prone to moisture absorption and retention. When it was originally developed it was intended the reinforcing used should either be made from stainless steel, or carbon steel that was galvanised or had some other rust protection system applied. Unfortunately, to reduce cost, standard 'black bar' steel (the same that is used in standard concrete) was routinely used instead, in the hope that the waterproofing systems that would be applied on top of the panels should stop any moisture ingress (it ended up also being used to make walls and celings of humid areas like swimming pools, changing rooms and kitchens, with no waterproofing applied on the inner surfaces, however).

When moisture does get into RAAC it has two effects - it increases the loading on the panel from it's own weight, and causes the carbon steel reinforcement (which is providing most of the strength) to corrode. As it corrodes, it then causes the concrete cover to spall off, weakening the panel further and exposing the steel, increasing the rate of corrosion.

Problems with it first became an issue in the early 80s, as it had been used for roofing panels that did not have enough strength to support themselves over the spans they were intended to cover, or had incorrectly placed or missing steel reniforcement. When these issues came to light, inspections were done and the affected buildings either had the panels replaced, or had additional support columns installed. There were however plenty of others that seemed not to have any issues where nothing was done, and no subsequent inspections were made. In the 40 years since, these panels have degraded to the point of being life expired, mostly due to moisture ingress due to failures of the waterproofing systems that were applied on top of them,

The Building Research Establishment published a paper on the end-of-life isues with RAAC roof planks designed before 1980 in 1996. In 1999 the Standihg Committee On Structural Safety (SCOSS) issued warnings about RAAC panels being life expired, and the BRE issued test results on expired panels and revised design guidance for the use of RAAC in 2002, but successive governments have bascially kicked the can down the road about doing anything about it, presumably in the hope the buildings would get replaced before they fail (preferably by some nice fat PFI contracts to their chums in the building industry, directorships all round etc.).

The issue finally came to a head in 2018 after a primary school roof collapsed in Sutton near St Helens due to failure of the RAAC panels (luckily it was early in the morning before it opened). As a result fo the investigation into that incident, and issues subsequently discovered with spalling of RAAC panels at a retail premises, SCOSS commissioned further research and issued further warnings and calls for urgent inspections in 2019.

The NHS, MoD and DfE all then began inspection programmes, the results of which they seem to have been trying to keep quiet until now. It first appeared in the media in March this year in an ITV news report. In June this year it was reported that a number of schools in Newcastle had structural issues as aa result of RAAC inspections.
 
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Prime586

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Regarding CLASP, there’s a Wiki page that attempts to list the stations and their history here. I thought it might have included Hilsea but that must have been a different type of modular construction?
Hilsea looks to me like it might be a variant of the London Midland region's Mod-X prefabricated system, but it would be well outside it's native habitat.
 

yorksrob

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Presumably if the RAAC concrete has been used for roof panels and beams, it's relatively easy to replace with lightweight materials.

The building pictured above looks of solid enough construction otherwise.
 

TJM

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Presumably if the RAAC concrete has been used for roof panels and beams, it's relatively easy to replace with lightweight materials.

The building pictured above looks of solid enough construction otherwise.
The Victorians had the right idea building everything with bricks! I've yet to find a case where they've not lasted as long as the ever-popular rusty-reinforced concrete now.. Nothing to stop you building tall structures with it either - just look at Battersea Power Station!
 

yorksrob

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The Victorians had the right idea building everything with bricks! I've yet to find a case where they've not lasted as long as the ever-popular rusty-reinforced concrete now.. Nothing to stop you building tall structures with it either - just look at Battersea Power Station!

Indeed.

I was taught for a large part of my youth in Victorian schools. No danger of those
buildings collapsing. Some of them have been converted into social housing.
 

Annetts key

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Concrete when done properly is fine. It’s the ‘lets find a way of doing it cheap and nasty’ where the problems come in. Well that and some so called architects wanting raw concrete to be on show…

Concrete is also something that has been around for far, far longer than most people realise. Go on, look it up on Wikipedia or any other encyclopaedia.
 
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