Rail bosses spend £10,000 a week on flights – because it’s cheaper than trains

[185]

I’m flying to Milan for £20 each return in august. Without a railcard that gets me 50-60 miles from home by train.

I'm quite sure that these NR execs wouldn't step foot in Ryanair or Easyjet, any budget carrier or... probably anything with economy class.

You'd have to take a lot of budget flights to get to that quoted amount. Ms. Bubbles DeVere springs to mind... "Champaaagne"

 

[Bluejays]

Indeed - the ban on flights means that there’s ‘only’ 6/7 flights a day each way between Paris and Bordeaux…

I suppose the argument 'for' would be that you have to start somewhere. The policy may not have achieved everything it wants as of yet, but it's certainly set the stall out. It seems an inherently sensible policy that I'd imagine will be tightened up/expanded in the coming years.

 

[Parjon]

So in your world, parasites are qualified professional people who take important and very responsible jobs for large salaries, and actually by lowering salaries you get... better... quality... candidates?

Sorry. I can't think of anyone who fits that description.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I'm quite sure that these NR execs wouldn't step foot in Ryanair or Easyjet, any budget carrier or... probably anything with economy class.

You'd have to take a lot of budget flights to get to that quoted amount. Ms. Bubbles DeVere springs to mind... "Champaaagne"

The booking system we've got in my bit of government land will give you a telling off 'out of policy' if you try and book business class (so Club Europe in the case of BA shorthaul) and will spit the dummy. That's actually true for all bands of employment now, even if we are booking for special guests. I will say the system tends to suggest BA but our local airport is LHR. You can upgrade at own cost, and I do if I'm honest.

 

[185]

The booking system we've got in my bit of government land will give you a telling off 'out of policy' if you try and book business class

In fairness to govt, local, ministerial and political they've cleaned up their act of late, however I don't think those 1st/Business rules apply to NR, unless I'm wrong.

 

[Broucek]

The booking system we've got in my bit of government land will give you a telling off 'out of policy' if you try and book business class (so Club Europe in the case of BA shorthaul) and will spit the dummy. That's actually true for all bands of employment now, even if we are booking for special guests. I will say the system tends to suggest BA but our local airport is LHR. You can upgrade at own cost, and I do if I'm honest.

Most private sector businesses also don't allow business class for short flights except for the most senior people

 

[Deepgreen]

"Cheaper" - in what way? In time, productivity, fares...? A facile headline that is vague enough to spark outrage without facts. More worthy of the Mail or Express.

 

[Taunton]

I don't know if anyone here has actually tried to work on a laptop on a TransPennine Express class 397 in Standard, on a near-full train but it's absolutely not conducive to doing your best work! Also there's a risk of having to stand on the TPE service

The myth that you can work in the train dates back to BR days when standard stock was 8 bays, all with tables. It is not possible to write comprehensively, have your notes alongside, or use your laptop effectively, with face-to-back seats at the pitch nowadays provided.

Business travelling staff from the north to our office in the Thames Valley, at full Anytime fares, gave up coming by train on finding that, on the return in particular from Reading to Birmingham in late afternoon, they either were squished in or, worse, had to stand.

 

[stuu]

A handsome maximum wage, lower than that which attracts the average spiv, would increase the quality of the talent pool and contribute towards a promotion pipeline.

Are you suggesting that a high salary puts people off applying? Exactly how?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are you suggesting that a high salary puts people off applying? Exactly how?

Possibly suggesting that a high salary often attracts the wrong calibre of applicant, i.e. someone glib who's only really in it for the money. Before then bailing out (or being sacked / quietly let go) a few years down the line, leaving a right old mess that urgently needs to be sorted out.

 

[Krokodil]

France has had a ban on short-haul domestic flights since May. Journeys that are possible in less than two-and-a-half hours by train cannot be taken as a flight. Paris - Marseille is not covered by the ban, nor are connecting flights. This shows what's possible with a high-speed rail network developed over many years. Even with a "watered down" HS2, London - Glasgow will be over 3 hours. Difficult to see how UK can follow France's example.

That ban was watered down in the French parliament. It was originally supposed to cover flights with a four hour rail alternative. Personally, as well as making it four hour, I'd apply it to international flights and connecting flights (with a codeshare agreement for those connections to be made by rail).

So in your world, parasites are qualified professional people who take important and very responsible jobs for large salaries, and actually by lowering salaries you get... better... quality... candidates?

Have NatWest got good value from the £5.25 million they pay their CEO? Her rather unprofessional and indiscreet behaviour may have netted them a substantial data protection fine. High executive salaries often don't result in good performance.

There's an interesting contrast between "we must pay the market rate" for executives vs "we're losing frontline staff hand-over-fist but we won't improve pay or conditions". That can apply to many employers, it's not targeted at any particular one.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have NatWest got good value from the £5.25 million they pay their CEO? Her rather unprofessional and indiscreet behaviour may have netted them a substantial data protection fine. High executive salaries often don't result in good performance.

And high railway salaries often don’t result in good performance either. It doesn’t mean that companies shouldn’t be allowed to try and compete with other companies to try to attract higher quality employees.

How are conditions and pay going on the railway now there’s a single monolith holding the purse strings?

 

[yorksrob]

An interesting question would be whether NR has business accounts with any of the TOC's, or indeed with any of the airlines.

If it does with an airline but not with the TOC's, it would be favouring air travel, which would be concerning.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm quite sure that these NR execs wouldn't step foot in Ryanair or Easyjet, any budget carrier or... probably anything with economy class.

Unless you’re on BA going to London then there isn’t a business class. Regional flights in the UK are the preserve of EasyJet and Loganair, with a smattering of Eastern. None of those have business class and champagne.

It costs me £50-£100 each way when I fly from here to the UK on EasyJet and Loganair and that’s booking in advance. One return a week would be a minimum of £5000 a year. So £8000 in a year isn’t outlandish at all.

As for working on a train, it’s really not very easy now companies understand the need for discretion, not to mention all the data protection rules. It used to be fun reading people’s screens over their shoulder on trains but most people are wise to it now. There’s not much of my day job I could do on a train because it’s not a confidential work environment.

 

[Krokodil]

How are conditions and pay going on the railway now there’s a single monolith holding the purse strings?

Well the state monopoly have lost a lot of staff to FOCs/non-DfT TOCs/early retirement. All because their competitors are offering a better ratio of pay to conditions. The market rate, you could say.

Similar issues exist in healthcare and teaching, there's a shortage of frontline staff. A shortage that hospital bosses and MAT Executive Headteachers on £100k+ don't seem to be able to solve, despite their salaries. That the Director of Ancillary Services (or whatever the title is this week) is pretty much doing the job of Head Porter is neither here nor there of course.

In one hospitality firm I used to work for, they did belatedly realise that the turnover caused by only paying NMW to frontline staff was costing them a fortune in agency workers, so they eventually started paying NLW regardless of how old the staff were.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

An interesting question would be whether NR has business accounts with any of the TOC's, or indeed with any of the airlines.

If it does with an airline but not with the TOC's, it would be favouring air travel, which would be concerning.

NR business travel (and accommodation) is booked through Agiito.

Thank you | Agiito

Thank you for taking the time to let us know.

www.agiito.com

 

[yorksrob]

NR business travel (and accommodation) is booked through Agiito.

Thank you | Agiito

Thank you for taking the time to let us know.

www.agiito.com

I suppose a 3rd party covers all options anyway.

Come to think of it, my employer uses the co-op.

I had an employer many years ago who had a deal with an airline and flew people everywhere.

 

[Broucek]

I'm fascinated that some people are linking laziness and low competence with higher salaries. Whilst there are people like that, on the whole getting to a highly paid job requires a fair bit of hard work (in the workplace and/or professional study)

 

[Krokodil]

I'm fascinated that some people are linking laziness and low competence with higher salaries. Whilst there are people like that, on the whole getting to a highly paid job requires a fair bit of hard work (in the workplace and/or professional study)

Depends upon the industry (I'm not making any judgments about rail executives, though I've got a few things to say about certain people in the DfT). Brown-nosing can get you a long way.

 

[eldomtom2]

Can you back up this claim?

I've made several posts on the topic that have generally seen quite a bit of disagreement. See my posts in this thread for my most recent comments on the topic: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-based-on-distance-and-train-category.251765/

 

[greyman42]

Quite, totally agree. You can do some work on the train, but not have a meeting with those based in Scotland whilst travelling there. And if you work hard on the way up, the 4 - 5 hours spent on the way back is pretty dead time due to exhaustion.

What is exhausting about sitting on a train?

 

[Falcon1200]

Working for the railway in Glasgow, I was sometimes required to attend courses or meetings at Network Rail's Management Centre, Westwood, near Coventry. On the first occasion I flew, partly because I live not far from Glasgow Airport and the nearest station to Westwood, Tile Hill, is a short train journey from Birmingham International. However on the way home the flight was delayed 2 hours. So next time I went by train, on a Sunday unfortunately, and was heavily delayed by a possession overrun!

 

[rower40]

Pre-pandemic; My bed-to-meeting-room time was shorter by train than by plane. Bed was in a suburb of Derby, meeting room next to Edinburgh Waverley station. Flying involved bus to bus station, bus to East Mids, flight to Edinburgh airport, bus to Waverley. Train was - bike to station, one train the whole way. And I did manage to get several hours of work done on the train. But I can see that it might not be everyone’s cup of MaxPax.

In other news; during one incident at Slough IECC, I was one of three helicopter passengers, collected from Pride Park Derby, and deposited at Slough General Hospital helipad. We found and fixed the fault, and normal service could resume on the GW. But it’s safe to say that this was a one-off.

 

[AndrewP]

I do a lot of business travel and my preferred route is the one of least resistance to get where I need to.

I sign off my own expenses (pay them too) so I can choose my class and mode and good first class rail travel in the UK takes some beating but BA domestic can be surprisingly cheap and convenient but airport parking can be very expensive. Domestic and European business class is very meh with only the middle seat blocked off, lounge access and a snack so not worth the money when you can buy lounge access for £20 but it's sometimes cheaper than economy due to demand pricing.

As I live in the north of England getting to Europe by train is a non starter as by the time I am in London for Eurostar I would have landed at my destination (unless it's KLM when it's a lottery!).

As for business people not using budget airlines this is simply not true. If a plane goes to and from the right places at the right times they will take it and often appreciate the honesty of the offer. Time is more valuable than a free glass of warm wine.

So as for railway staff using planes - fair enough if there is a business case for it.

 

[route101]

All this is nothing new whatsoever. When I worked for British Rail in Scotland in the later 1980s and early 1990s (in the 'sector' era) it was often necessary or more efficient to fly, especially to/from Regional Railways' HQ in Birmingham. I hated (and continue to hate) flying but there is a limit to how many sleeper and long day train journeys you can make. It was sometimes necessary to get up at 0430 to catch the first train to London for a late arrival at a 1030 meeting, then have to dash off to catch the 1700 from KIng's Cross, getting home after 2200.

"Oh, you can work on the train." Yeah, right. Nothing like an extra eight hours on the new-fangled laptop. How did we ever manage before they were invented? Just remember to re-charge it during the day.

Yes, I was wondering that earlier. Before laptops, what did business travellers do for work on the go? I appreciate looking over documents.

 

[Facing Back]

As for business people not using budget airlines this is simply not true. If a plane goes to and from the right places at the right times they will take it and often appreciate the honesty of the offer. Time is more valuable than a free glass of warm wine.

So as for railway staff using planes - fair enough if there is a business case for it.

Agreed. Especially if it is regional airport and you can avoid Heathrow it can save hours. And I'm not normally up for a glass of wine at 7am

 

[Broucek]

I do a lot of business travel and my preferred route is the one of least resistance to get where I need to.

I sign off my own expenses (pay them too) so I can choose my class and mode and good first class rail travel in the UK takes some beating but BA domestic can be surprisingly cheap and convenient but airport parking can be very expensive. Domestic and European business class is very meh with only the middle seat blocked off, lounge access and a snack so not worth the money when you can buy lounge access for £20 but it's sometimes cheaper than economy due to demand pricing.

As I live in the north of England getting to Europe by train is a non starter as by the time I am in London for Eurostar I would have landed at my destination (unless it's KLM when it's a lottery!).

As for business people not using budget airlines this is simply not true. If a plane goes to and from the right places at the right times they will take it and often appreciate the honesty of the offer. Time is more valuable than a free glass of warm wine.

So as for railway staff using planes - fair enough if there is a business case for it.

Exactly this. I travel a great deal and convenience generally trumps cost (within reason). So, for example, I will generally aim to stay in airport hotels that are walkable from the terminal (i.e. no shuttle bus)

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm quite sure that these NR execs wouldn't step foot in Ryanair or Easyjet, any budget carrier or... probably anything with economy class.

In fairness to govt, local, ministerial and political they've cleaned up their act of late, however I don't think those 1st/Business rules apply to NR, unless I'm wrong.

This is just trolling. Suggest you look up direct Aberdeen to Birmingham flights and check out the business class offering. I have flown several times on business over the past 30 years or so (in the rail industry), usually because of time constraints. I have yet to fly business class. In fact I can’t remember the last flight I took on business that had business class.

An interesting question would be whether NR has business accounts with any of the TOC's, or indeed with any of the airlines.

If it does with an airline but not with the TOC's, it would be favouring air travel, which would be concerning.

Everything is booked through an agency, who provide a worthwhile discount / rebate back to the company.

 

[BlueLeanie]

What is exhausting about sitting on a train?

A 5 hour rail journey after work, is 5 hours of work eating into my personal time.

It's 5 hours not spent with family, not spent with friends, not on the golf course on these long summer evenings, or simply not pottering in the garden.

Be more French! As contributors encourage upthread. Close the laptop at 17:00

 

[ruaival]

Donald Dewar - formerly first First Minister of Scotland - was a regular on the Lowland Sleeper because he said it was a far better start to a Westminster day after an Edinburgh evening than a long drive through the night or the "red eye" flight in the morning.