Rail replacement bus questions

[Western 52]

It seems there are more RRBs than ever before. We've just had 2 weeks of them on the Marches line, and Treherbert closed for about 9 months.

Is the railway too reliant on RRBs? Maybe too easy to just book buses instead of keeping the railway running in some way?

RRBs may not be a popular option for passengers, especially those with luggage, prams, etc. Are there any known survey stats on what passengers think?

Finally, do passenger numbers on these buses get counted in rail usage stats, in particular usage of individual stations?

 

[Llandudno]

It seems there are more RRBs than ever before. We've just had 2 weeks of them on the Marches line, and Treherbert closed for about 9 months.

Is the railway too reliant on RRBs? Maybe too easy to just book buses instead of keeping the railway running in some way?

RRBs may not be a popular option for passengers, especially those with luggage, prams, etc. Are there any known survey stats on what passengers think?

Finally, do passenger numbers on these buses get counted in rail usage stats, in particular usage of individual stations?

I very much doubt that passenger numbers get counted on RRB buses as no one ever seems to bother checking or issuing tickets…

 

[DPQ]

Is the railway too reliant on RRBs? Maybe too easy to just book buses instead of keeping the railway running in some way?

Look at what has happened between Chicherster and Havant recently where the line is closed and no buses were available. There's a thread somewhere

 

[Purple Train]

It seems there are more RRBs than ever before. We've just had 2 weeks of them on the Marches line, and Treherbert closed for about 9 months.

Is the railway too reliant on RRBs? Maybe too easy to just book buses instead of keeping the railway running in some way?

RRBs may not be a popular option for passengers, especially those with luggage, prams, etc. Are there any known survey stats on what passengers think?

Finally, do passenger numbers on these buses get counted in rail usage stats, in particular usage of individual stations?

It certainly shines a slightly different light on the relative shortage of buses. But I'm not sure I agree with you. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've only used a Rail Replacement Bus once since I started travelling again two years ago, and that was due to flooding.

And on the subject of "trying to find a way to keep the railway running" - in the Treherbert example you cite, I'm really not sure how they could have kept the railway running given all the work they were doing.

 

[Furryanimal]

I did the trip between Hereford and Shrewsbury the other Saturday on my way to North Wales.
No ticket check onto the buses either way….I reckon I could have booked to Hereford and again from Shrewsbury to North Wales.
Few people were on these buses and the driver of the bus on the way back ,where there were barely double figures in the way of passengers,said it was the most he had had on board all day.
I try to avoid replacement buses…don’t like them but I had choice but to use them.
Conversely the trains to and from Shrewsbury,which would normally have been South Wales trains,were packed.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Very much doubt anyone (bus enthusiasts aside) like them. They add time to a journey, not just with road generally being slower than rail, but with the time taken to get off the train and board the replacement vehicle.

The railway generally seems to have shifted away from diversionary routes for a variety of reasons. Suspect a large part of this for electric traction is that the plethora of couplings means it is no longer possible to use an otherwise idle freight loco over the weekend to hitch onto a rake of carriages and go 'off wire' round the blockade. Freight locos will of course now incur hire fees where under BR they were all part of the same organisation

 

[Western 52]

There seem to be far more RRBs these days than back in the 1970s and 1980s. Sure there were some then, but many engineering works saw trains still running in some way. As I said in the OP maybe it's just the easy solution these days?

 

[skyhigh]

There seem to be far more RRBs these days than back in the 1970s and 1980s. Sure there were some then, but many engineering works saw trains still running in some way. As I said in the OP maybe it's just the easy solution these days?

Safety standards are far stricter these days. Red zone working is pretty much banned. It's a lot harder to work around trains that are running.

On the flip side, doing the work with no trains in the mix is generally faster and therefore cheaper.

 

[Sleepy]

I would question the condition of some of the vehicles in use in GA land, several breakdowns this weekend. Do the coach companies tend to keep "life expired" vehicles for use on RRB jobs ??

 

[JonathanH]

Do the coach companies tend to keep "life expired" vehicles for use on RRB jobs ??

No, quite the contrary now, as they aren't permitted to run buses which are not compliant with accessibility legislation.

Having said that, the contract work is sometimes the preserve of coaches in a second or third phase of their working life.

 

[Roger1973]

I would question the condition of some of the vehicles in use in GA land, several breakdowns this weekend. Do the coach companies tend to keep "life expired" vehicles for use on RRB jobs ??

Other than where there has been a blockade lasting several weeks during school term, I'd say very few operators keep vehicles just for rail replacement work - the economics of buying even an old vehicle, licensing, insuring and maintaining a vehicle for use maybe one day a week or less on average through the year, don't stack up.

The 'life expired' vehicles on rail replacement work on Sundays will mostly be out on school contracts during the week.

(Although having said that, I understand that Go-Ahead London have - or at least used to have - a few vehicles at odd outstations around the Southern / Thameslink / South Eastern patch, but maybe there is / was enough evening work midweek to justify it - I may be wrong but I don't think they sought out schools contract work as well.)

Most planned blockades are planned to happen during school holidays when a lot of operators will have vehicles and drivers available. There's obviously some capacity with most operators to get one or two extra vehicles out there for an emergency, before they need to get in to hiring something, but it's limited.

I very much doubt that passenger numbers get counted on RRB buses as no one ever seems to bother checking or issuing tickets…

I did a couple of years as a part time rail replacement bus controller, getting on for 10 years ago. Our instructions were to tell passengers that they should get a ticket (where facilities existed) before travelling, but neither we or the RRB drivers were issued with the means to issue tickets, or given any instruction in recognising the variety of paper / smartcard / mobile phone tickets that are out there. I think I had revenue protection staff drop in maybe a couple of times in about 18 months of working most weekends.

We did log the number of passengers on the RRB leaving the station we were working at, but where it was an 'all stations' service, that would not count people who got on and off at other stations.

 

[Alan Glaum]

My recent Sunday RRB from Didcot Parkway to Oxford have had full ticket checks on arrival, in the car park at Oxford

 

[swaldman]

I still maintain that when the train is replaced with a bus, the fare I paid should be refunded to the value of the equivalent National Express fare. NX buses are faster and more comfortable than most RRBs, so if I'm getting a worse service I shouldn't be paying more.


RRBing *can* be done well. I recently used some in Norway, which were set up for a planned-ahead, long term service (I think the line was closed for a number of weeks). Oslo train station (which was at one end of the closure) had a fully-equipped (temporary?) bus station built with platform numbers and departure screens just like the rail platforms. The buses were fully integrated into the timetable, and were modern comfy vehicles with enough space to carry the number of passengers travelling. Obviously the train would have been better, but the RRBs *just worked*, easily, straightforwardly, and without causing any misery or delays (because they had been built into the timetable well ahead).
Obviously not possible for emergency bustitutions, but it's what we should be aiming for when it's pre-planned.

 

[Class 170101]

The more notice the operator has of blocks the easier it is to order Rail Replacement Buses and get them as you want them. The later you leave it the less likely the buses are to be available. Its why when there are massive failures like signalling or fatalities that go on for hours buses are usually scarce.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

My only gripe with them, although I try and avoid them, is that they don't really seem to be customer friendly organised. I got one from Ipswich the other week and there were 2 options, stopping at stowmarket and diss or a direct to Norwich. Pot luck really which one was which with the drivers just standing in a huddle, not that it's their responsibility to organise.

Yes the coaches aren't always the best as others have said they tend to be the school contracts during week.

 

[DJ_K666]

Other than where there has been a blockade lasting several weeks during school term, I'd say very few operators keep vehicles just for rail replacement work - the economics of buying even an old vehicle, licensing, insuring and maintaining a vehicle for use maybe one day a week or less on average through the year, don't stack up.

The 'life expired' vehicles on rail replacement work on Sundays will mostly be out on school contracts during the week.

(Although having said that, I understand that Go-Ahead London have - or at least used to have - a few vehicles at odd outstations around the Southern / Thameslink / South Eastern patch, but maybe there is / was enough evening work midweek to justify it - I may be wrong but I don't think they sought out schools contract work as well.)

Most planned blockades are planned to happen during school holidays when a lot of operators will have vehicles and drivers available. There's obviously some capacity with most operators to get one or two extra vehicles out there for an emergency, before they need to get in to hiring something, but it's limited.



I did a couple of years as a part time rail replacement bus controller, getting on for 10 years ago. Our instructions were to tell passengers that they should get a ticket (where facilities existed) before travelling, but neither we or the RRB drivers were issued with the means to issue tickets, or given any instruction in recognising the variety of paper / smartcard / mobile phone tickets that are out there. I think I had revenue protection staff drop in maybe a couple of times in about 18 months of working most weekends.

We did log the number of passengers on the RRB leaving the station we were working at, but where it was an 'all stations' service, that would not count people who got on and off at other stations.

I used to do Southern RRBs when I was at Brighton & Hove. I probably ran into you a couple of times.
From a bus drivers perspective it was handy overtime and easy work. That said you'd get all the announcements at stations, all the signage and people would still act all surprised about it. Result? Grumpy huffy passengers.

Three Bridges was always my favourite. If you had an hour you'd go to Charlie's burger van on the taxi rank outside the station for what's called a Scooby Burger and a cup of tea for £6.50. That'd keep you going all weekend

 

[dk1]

It seems there are more RRBs than ever before. We've just had 2 weeks of them on the Marches line, and Treherbert closed for about 9 months.

Is the railway too reliant on RRBs? Maybe too easy to just book buses instead of keeping the railway running in some way?

RRBs may not be a popular option for passengers, especially those with luggage, prams, etc. Are there any known survey stats on what passengers think?

Finally, do passenger numbers on these buses get counted in rail usage stats, in particular usage of individual stations?

Passenger numbers on particular buses & trains don’t count. It’s just ticket sales.

Unfortunately there is no real other sensible & affordable option. RR buses are here to stay.

 

[DJ_K666]

Passenger numbers on particular buses & trains don’t count. It’s just ticket sales.

Unfortunately there is no real other sensible & affordable option. RR buses are here to stay.

The supervisor does a rough estimate of numbers on each bus and writes it on the paperwork but that's more to do with overloading. Also if there's either a motorway or any road where the bus can go over 50mph then you cannot have any standing passengers on board. Most buses I deal with are limited to either 52mph or 56 but on a run like Brighton to Three Bridges or Gatwick Airport you've got the A23 or the M23 so you have to watch your loadings. Especially if you're the latter.

 

[markymark2000]

The supervisor does a rough estimate of numbers on each bus and writes it on the paperwork but that's more to do with overloading. Also if there's either a motorway or any road where the bus can go over 50mph then you cannot have any standing passengers on board. Most buses I deal with are limited to either 52mph or 56 but on a run like Brighton to Three Bridges or Gatwick Airport you've got the A23 or the M23 so you have to watch your loadings. Especially if you're the latter.

Old wives tail. The legal capacity which is written on the bus, should be at the front near the driver, is the capacity. If that says 15 standing that is the capacity irrespective of the road it runs on.

On normal roads, standing passengers are completely fine, there is no law (and when asked, no one can find the law) that states no standing passengers when going over 50mph.

For motorways, you should avoid having standing passengers (understandably) but again, there is no law on it. If you can find the law, I'll retract this post but as of yet, no one has ever managed to find proof of this.


Gov website says this explicitly.

Urban buses on motorways

www.gov.uk

Buses that have been approved or certified to carry standing passengers in accordance with national or European construction rules are not restricted on which roads they can use.

 

[greenline712]

Many many years ago (I'm talking 1980s), it was possible to replace tyres on buses that were expected to do low mileage with "re-treads" . . . these buses were recommended NOT to use motorways. At the same time, it was recommended that coaches on motorways should not carry standing passengers . . . this was to avoid the possibility of a coach braking sharply from a high speed and standing passengers being unable to hang on (no vertical handrails).

Note the word "recommended" . . . not "instructed" or "prevented". Some drivers would apply these without exception; others would use common sense.
I did my CPC in 1989, and there was nothing in the regulations about either topic then.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Other than where there has been a blockade lasting several weeks during school term, I'd say very few operators keep vehicles just for rail replacement work - the economics of buying even an old vehicle, licensing, insuring and maintaining a vehicle for use maybe one day a week or less on average through the year, don't stack up.

In Melbourne because of the large amount of works going on companies have bought old low floor buses from the likes of Perth and Brisbane and get the contracts to do the work.

If there's enough work about then someone will buy some clapped out low floors and make $$$.

 

[Taunton]

For motorways, you should avoid having standing passengers (understandably) but again, there is no law on it. If you can find the law, I'll retract this post but as of yet, no one has ever managed to find proof of this.

My understanding was there was. Certainly when the bus service was introduced between Bristol and Chepstow in 1966, when the Severn Bridge opened, there was a requirement imposed for no standing passengers on the motorway section, across the bridge. It was stipulated in the timetable. Of course, legislation may have changed.

While we are on legalities, I understand that for any bus service to charge fares it has to go through the hoopla of being formally registered, and registering all the fares charged. This I always understood is why such buses cannot check tickets etc, but have to be provided for free.

 

[markymark2000]

While we are on legalities, I understand that for any bus service to charge fares it has to go through the hoopla of being formally registered, and registering all the fares charged. This I always understood is why such buses cannot check tickets etc, but have to be provided for free.

Rail replacement routes are exempt from registration.

Run a local bus service

Run a bus service in and out of London - registering, London Service Permit, bus registration, public service vehicle operator’s licence, PSV

www.gov.uk

Other exemptions
You do not need to register:
a replacement bus service (for example when a train service is temporarily cancelled and a bus is used instead) provided under an agreement with the Secretary of State, the Scottish Ministers or the National Assembly for Wales

 

[norbitonflyer]

The railway generally seems to have shifted away from diversionary routes for a variety of reasons. Suspect a large part of this for electric traction is that the plethora of couplings means it is no longer possible to use an otherwise idle freight loco over the weekend to hitch onto a rake of carriages and go 'off wire' round the blockade. Freight locos will of course now incur hire fees where under BR they were all part of the same organisation

Back in the day most locos were compatible with coaching stock, as the only thing the coaches relied on the locomtive for was heating. Even if you had a no-heat loco, (or an ETH loco and steam heat stock, or vice versa) the worst that might happen is it might get a bit chilly over the course of the drag. But modern coaching stock needs more complex "hotel services" - air conditioning, power operated doors, etc. And since the 1970s most diesel locos have been dedicated to freight work and not fitted for ETH. (Only classes 67 and 68, most of which are already in use for passenger work and therefore not available to haul dead electric locos around the countryside). This is why a 73 has to be in any Highland sleeper formation, even though a 66 has enough power to haul the train unassisted.

 

[Deafdoggie]

My understanding was there was. Certainly when the bus service was introduced between Bristol and Chepstow in 1966, when the Severn Bridge opened, there was a requirement imposed for no standing passengers on the motorway section, across the bridge. It was stipulated in the timetable. Of course, legislation may have changed.

While we are on legalities, I understand that for any bus service to charge fares it has to go through the hoopla of being formally registered, and registering all the fares charged. This I always understood is why such buses cannot check tickets etc, but have to be provided for free.

Bus companies can impose their own restrictions if they want. But it doesn't mean it's law. They may just have felt it was safer & putting it in writing in the timetable helps to diffuse arguments.

RRBs aren't free. You need a rail ticket.

 

[DJ_K666]

Old wives tail. The legal capacity which is written on the bus, should be at the front near the driver, is the capacity. If that says 15 standing that is the capacity irrespective of the road it runs on.

On normal roads, standing passengers are completely fine, there is no law (and when asked, no one can find the law) that states no standing passengers when going over 50mph.

For motorways, you should avoid having standing passengers (understandably) but again, there is no law on it. If you can find the law, I'll retract this post but as of yet, no one has ever managed to find proof of this.


Gov website says this explicitly.

Urban buses on motorways

www.gov.uk

Most likely company policy then. I was always told not to allow standees on Motorways and certainly I stuck to that instruction. I would tell supervisors doing the RRBs straight away no standees, especially if I was doing Three Bridges to Pratwick Scareport. A spare bus would be dug out to take any stragglers, in any case we often ran in pairs or 3s. Doesn't help that the A27 and A23 north of Brighton has quasi-motorway qualities in places.

 

[RJ]

I would question the condition of some of the vehicles in use in GA land, several breakdowns this weekend. Do the coach companies tend to keep "life expired" vehicles for use on RRB jobs ??

There’s a reason for that. Somebody needs to pay for newer vehicles as there will be finance / leasing / book value liabilities on a vehicle for around 12-15 years.

If the work is paying rates intended to cover wages and fuel for an average of less than one day a week, few operators are going to procure newer vehicles solely for that purpose. Similarly if the vehicle’s main work is a school contract that pays break even rates for 195 days a year then it’s going to be a similar story. It forces the operator’s hand to either minimise costs or find a mixed portfolio of work at their own risk to fund a more modern vehicle.

New vehicles can only be provided if somebody is paying for them. Some contracts are lucrative and let for several years at a time so the operator can afford to run 73 plate Tourismos or 22 plate B8RLEs and send them on rail replacement if they’re spare.

All of that said though. Old vehicles don’t necessarily equate to unreliable. If they are looked after and defects are intercepted in a timely manner then a bus will rarely break down. If defects aren’t picked up or put on the back burner until the next inspection then they will conk out in service.

 

[Snow1964]

Limited RRBs between Bristol and Bath today, shortage of vehicles not drivers this time, but that may be due to Low emission zones both ends of the route.

So serious question, when RRBs are planned, does anyone actually bother to check there are sufficient spare euro6 buses in the area, or do they just assume nearby operators spare buses will be compliant.

Although seems they are offering ticket availability on rail via Swindon

Incident: GWR buses | National Rail

Limited rail replacement bus service in operation between Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads . Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[markymark2000]

So serious question, when RRBs are planned, does anyone actually bother to check there are sufficient spare euro6 buses in the area, or do they just assume nearby operators spare buses will be compliant.

In short, No. No one thinks about the supply of compliant buses.

I don't see why rail replacement is needed though for the fast Bristol - Bath Spa though. Put everyone on the First X39, every 15 minutes and only very slightly longer. Keep the rail replacements for the stopper (Oldfield Park has no bus links to Keynsham or Bristol)

 

[RJ]

Limited RRBs between Bristol and Bath today, shortage of vehicles not drivers this time, but that may be due to Low emission zones both ends of the route.

So serious question, when RRBs are planned, does anyone actually bother to check there are sufficient spare euro6 buses in the area, or do they just assume nearby operators spare buses will be compliant.

Although seems they are offering ticket availability on rail via Swindon

Incident: GWR buses | National Rail

Limited rail replacement bus service in operation between Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads . Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

I did a Bath to Westbury emergency rail job the other day and didn’t know about the Bath clean air zone beforehand - if I did I’d only have sent a vehicle if there was an extra £100 to cover that cost of operation. Possibly other operators who could come in from a few miles away are aware of it and can’t sustainably absorb that cost otherwise.