Rail replacement bus running, but so is the train it's supposed to be replacing!

[CaptainHaddock]

Strange business at Sheffield today. If you want to go to Nottingham East Midlands Trains are running a rail replacement bus service yet they're also running an hourly train service that leaves two minutes before the bus and gets to Nottingham in less than half the time the bus takes! Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

 

[DJames]

It looks like that replacement bus starts at Stockport, whereas the train starts at Sheffield. Any passengers from Sheffield to Nottingham would just get the train, but passengers from Stockport will be on that bus, and some will want Sheffield and some will want Nottingham.

 

[Tomnick]

Part of the logic is presumably that Up trains aren't calling at Chesterfield, so a bus needs to run in that direction to cater for those passengers. I don't know why they're going to Nottingham (including intermediate stops?) rather than just Alfreton to connect into a train - possibly to make it a bit less of a faff for passengers who are going there anyway.

I do struggle with the concept of binning Northern's stopping service altogether and running a full replacement bus service to Langley Mill and Il'son, in parallel with the EMR offering that's largely not stopping at those stations despite being heavily retired and self-contained to accommodate the diversions via Beighton - how much money could be saved with a little co-operation between operators?

 

[Amlag]

Strange business at Sheffield today. If you want to go to Nottingham East Midlands Trains are running a rail replacement bus service yet they're also running an hourly train service that leaves two minutes before the bus and gets to Nottingham in less than half the time the bus takes! Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

I think the Govt‘s Treasury and DfT high officials need to be made aware of this.

it does happen on occasions elsewhere; between Exeter and Salisbury courtesy of SWR comes to mind.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't know what route the RRBs have been taking between Stockport and Sheffield but traffic in the Hope Valley through Hathersage has been a nightmare today because it is Gala Week (think Derbyshire carnival, well dressing, wakes and so forth). I can well imagine that some people will be quite happy with a 'through' bus rather than being turfed off randomly at Sheffield Interchange and finding they've just missed a train to Chesterfield (and VV).

Not quite one for the Chancellor, methinks.

 

[johnnychips]

Well I took the RRB to Hope from Sheffield at 0658 this morning, with three other people. Coming home from Hyde tonight, two consecutive trains from Piccadilly to Hope were cancelled, so I couldn’t change at Romiley. I had to get a train into Manchester and had a really nice trip through Huddersfield instead. I can’t imagine the buses from Hope had many passengers.

 

[M60lad]

I was on a RRB from Sheffield-Stockport yesterday evening at about 19:15 and the route took was Sheffield Parkway (A57,A630), M1, A616, A628, M60. I'm not to sure what other route could be taken.

Also its not just trains that were cancelled for some reason (maybe shortage of available coaches and coach drivers) 18:46 Sheffield-Stockport RRB was cancelled throughout.

 

[deltic]

Rail replacement buses seem to often run between Manchester Airport and Piccadilly at the same time as trains are also being provided by a different TOC

 

[dk1]

I think the Govt‘s Treasury and DfT high officials need to be made aware of this.

Please don’t. They meddle enough as it is.

 

[jumble]

It was a few years ago mind.
There was engineering work and a line closure scheduled for Rayners lane to Uxbridge one weekend
The Line Closure was cancelled at short notice and the underground ran normally
Sullivans ran their RRB service all weekend as well
This presumably had the effect of abstracting revenue as no ticket is needed on the bus.

 

[Bill57p9]

Part of the logic is presumably that Up trains aren't calling at Chesterfield, so a bus needs to run in that direction to cater for those passengers. I don't know why they're going to Nottingham (including intermediate stops?) rather than just Alfreton to connect into a train - possibly to make it a bit less of a faff for passengers who are going there anyway.

I do struggle with the concept of binning Northern's stopping service altogether and running a full replacement bus service to Langley Mill and Il'son, in parallel with the EMR offering that's largely not stopping at those stations despite being heavily retired and self-contained to accommodate the diversions via Beighton - how much money could be saved with a little co-operation between operators?

Even more bizarre is that the EMR RRBs are non-stop Sheffield to Nottingham, not even calling at Chesterfield to cover the up direction.

They have separate RRBs running Sheffield to Derby which do call at Chesterfield.

 

[Whistler40145]

In the future, wouldn't it be logical and more financially viable for Northern and EMR to joint coordinate RRBs and train services to reduce duplicate services

 

[syorksdeano]

In the future, wouldn't it be logical and more financially viable for Northern and EMR to joint coordinate RRBs and train services to reduce duplicate services

That would require common sense

 

[43055]

Even more bizarre is that the EMR RRBs are non-stop Sheffield to Nottingham, not even calling at Chesterfield to cover the up direction.

They have separate RRBs running Sheffield to Derby which do call at Chesterfield.

I just find it bizarre that the EMR intercity services are not running north of Derby when in the past they have run to Sheffield via Barrow Hill. Also every arrival at Derby seams to head to Etches Park only to come back out about an hour later to form the following service back south!

 

[Whistler40145]

That would require common sense

The Coordination of Rail services and RRBs shouldn't be the responsibility of each TOC during Engineering Works or stock shortage, the responsibility should transfer to a system wide team within British Railways including those who plan the timetable

 

[dk1]

Looks like several EMR train services on the Sheffield-Nottingham route are cancelled today as not enough drivers volunteering to work.

 

[Whistler40145]

Looks like several EMR train services on the Sheffield-Nottingham route are cancelled today as not enough drivers volunteering to work.

Quite surprised that Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich services aren't being disrupted with the same issue

 

[Taunton]

It was a few years ago mind.
There was engineering work and a line closure scheduled for Rayners lane to Uxbridge one weekend
The Line Closure was cancelled at short notice and the underground ran normally
Sullivans ran their RRB service all weekend as well
This presumably had the effect of abstracting revenue as no ticket is needed on the bus.

Not unknown in London. On the shared Watford DC Line a short notice works cancellation could be handled by the National Rail operator but not by the Underground. So one now ran to normal timetable, while the other reversed short and laid over as in the initial plan, each thus getting in the way of the other. The Underground RRBs ran, but were pointless as the next National Rail train along was a quicker option.

 

[VideozVideoz]

I was on a RRB from Sheffield-Stockport yesterday evening at about 19:15 and the route took was Sheffield Parkway (A57,A630), M1, A616, A628, M60. I'm not to sure what other route could be taken

The other route that has been taken previously is via A623 Tideswell then A6 all the way up to Stockport and Manchester

 

[dk1]

Quite surprised that Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich services aren't being disrupted with the same issue

It is the same route. Engineering works however across the Hope Valley. The 11:27 Sheffield to Norwich restarts Nottingham at 12:43.

 

[Whistler40145]

It is the same route. Engineering works however across the Hope Valley. The 11:27 Sheffield to Norwich restarts Nottingham at 12:43.

Hope Valley improvement works no doubt

 

[dk1]

Hope Valley improvement works no doubt

Yes I think that’s all weekends throughout July.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

In the future, wouldn't it be logical and more financially viable for Northern and EMR to joint coordinate RRBs and train services to reduce duplicate services

I agree. It was a similar story if you wanted to get from Sheffield to Derby yesterday. You could either take an East Midlands Trains rail replacement bus at four minutes to the hour or a Cross Country train that left a minute earlier and got to Derby around 40 minutes earlier! So what was the point of the RRB?

 

[stuartl]

I agree. It was a similar story if you wanted to get from Sheffield to Derby yesterday. You could either take an East Midlands Trains rail replacement bus at four minutes to the hour or a Cross Country train that left a minute earlier and got to Derby around 40 minutes earlier! So what was the point of

Could it be because cross country weren't accepting emr only advance tickets ? Does show up the fragmented state of the railway though.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Or concerns about possible/likely overcrowding on CrossCountry? I've known some severe problems with single sets on various diversions in the Sheffield area in the past.

In the future, wouldn't it be logical and more financially viable for Northern and EMR to joint coordinate RRBs and train services to reduce duplicate services

Are you suggesting permanent withdrawal of the Northern (Leeds-)Sheffield-Nottingham service and leaving just the hourly EMR Norwich-Nottingham-Sheffield-Liverpool service (with additional calls, of course) then?

 

[Whistler40145]

Or concerns about possible/likely overcrowding on CrossCountry? I've known some severe problems with single sets on various diversions in the Sheffield area in the past.


Are you suggesting permanent withdrawal of the Northern (Leeds-)Sheffield-Nottingham service and leaving just the hourly EMR Norwich-Nottingham-Sheffield-Liverpool service (with additional calls, of course) then?

I mean during Engineering Works that there's not duplicate rail and bus services if the line isn't shut, should be rail or bus

 

[syorksdeano]

I'm surprised no trains from Sheffield to London this weekend. Surely the old line isn't that busy on a weekend

 

[Birmingham]

Could it be because cross country weren't accepting emr only advance tickets ? Does show up the fragmented state of the railway though.

Then surely EMR should have paid CrossCountry to accept its tickets rather than paying for the replacement buses. Although, CrossCountry trains are obviously often very crowded — especially on weekends — so CrossCountry may have been unwilling to accept other operators' tickets anyway.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm surprised no trains from Sheffield to London this weekend. Surely the old line isn't that busy on a weekend

Because of various engineering works EMT is basically only operating Derby/Nottingham-Luton in 'main line' terms, both yesterday and today.

As already noted; CrossCountry are "very crowded" > need buses as well. It isn't that complicated.

Sheffield station isn't very easy to operate at the best of times. With CrossCountry reversing and Transpennine also having a different timetable the North end becomes almost impossible.

 

[Killingworth]

Not Sheffield - Nottingham but caused by the same 5 weekend blockades at Dore.

Mayhem this morning Sheffield - Manchester where an hourly bus substitute was being provided to Hope to cover for the normal 3 coach Northern trains, 3/6 coach TPE and 4 coach EMR (although Northern had recently been providing 5 or 6 cars to cover for missing TPE services). Connection then to stopping service into Piccadilly planned as 5/6 car 195.

In theory this should have worked reasonably well, but not with only one coach on congested Peak District weekend roads!

There had been a 6 car 9.11 TPE service via Huddersfield to Manchester but the next wasn't until 13.11. EMR were running bus replacements but not until their 11.12 to Stockport.

Northern's 9.44 coach was swamped leaving many behind and was late. 6 of us at Dore were told to wait for a following bus, expecting a duplicate to be following. It didn't. The 10.48 from Sheffield apparently also left about 20 behind at Sheffield. 2 of us who'd waited at Dore were allowed aboard, the other 4 having given up.

It's a bumpy ride down to Grindleford and along to Hathersage avoiding badly parked cars and cyclists. We were late into Hope and one passenger had thrown up!

Only about 8 of us got off for Hope Valley destinations, all the rest wanting Manchester. This bus was timed to arrive at Hope at 11.43, an optimistic hot summer weekend schedule but there should have been time to connect with the train due out at 11.54 if it had waited a few minutes. It hadn't waited. The next was due to leave an hour later - but had been cancelled.

Bus driver now looking round for water and equipment to clean out bus before return. There must have been at least 4 TPE employees trying to keep the peace. No toilets. No refreshments, not even water, and precious little shade on possibly the hottest day of the year so far. Some opted to follow walkers into Castleton.

To add insult to injury a second empty standby coach drew in, apparently to return to Sheffield - but there only seemed to be one passenger waiting to go that way.

I spoke to a number of users. Most seemed to have tickets on apps and were unaware that they would be travelling by bus, albeit a nice air conditioned coach. That was bad enough. Worse was to have to wait for an hour for the next. To then have to wait for over another hour in the middle of the lovely Peak District was not what they wanted. I hope they eventually got to Manchester on the 5 coach 195 that subsequently left at 13.59. One couple had tickets from York to Bamford. A father and young son had booked his first exciting train ride to Manchester - he was furious. Never, ever again would he try a train.