Rail strikes discussion

[Bantamzen]

In all fairness, the sheer amount of propaganda that is being put out by NR to the workforce and the government and some media to the public is getting people's backs up that are going on strike for legitimate, serious reasons, legally and democratically. If the people suggesting that actions come with consequences and that those going on strike are fair game for this criticism; then the same is true for people that are working or considering working during the strike. These people will know, even without telling them, that their colleagues will be disgusted with them. Their actions have consequences too. Seems fair to me.

Yes technically its democratic amongst union members, but it is not democratic for the travelling public who get no say in this matter. And this is an important point some members seems to miss, rail workers deliver a service to the paying public, most of whom don't care what railway workers vote for. They just want to get from A to B and back again, and if they can't do it on the rails then there is a chance they will start to do it by other means. And if they do in any kind of numbers, well then less railway workers will be required.

 

[winks]

Talks have broken down according to the guardian and mirror this morning. RMT confirming strikes will go ahead - in part I think this is about applying a bit of pressure on Govt - what should happen is Mr Schapps should award a pay rise to rail workers , publicise it (lets says 4.5% or 5%) and see if the RMT call it off

 

[nanstallon]

We've always had a bad name

Then don't expect much public sympathy.

 

[ar10642]

The concern is having an incompetent member of staff on the train will put passengers at risk. Safer to not run the service. Especially if you got two on a red. That could cause a SPAD.

Unless you want Guards who can't dispatch correctly ?

Right but apparently he would normally let it slide. So it's either not that big of a deal and it only is on that day because it's a strike, or it should never happen and he's ignoring safety issues on non strike days presumably because he likes the people involved. Either way's not good is it?

 

[lammergeier]

that, of course, is illegal.

I suspect it's antics like that which have led to many companies adopting HR business partner roles to oversee things like dismissals, recruiting etc with less power over such things given to local management.

 

[LAX54]

Then don't expect much public sympathy.

The NR dispute is also about and more importantly staff cuts in maintainance, (and we know what the result of that would be) if you are happy for maintainance to be cut back even further....fair enough !

 

[ComUtoR]

DRA DRA DRA lol

No Driver has ever closer their doors on a red, with the DRA set

Or had a SASSPAD

 

[cactustwirly]

For me it would have to be something seriously objectionable. To be used very rarely. Not just we want extra pay.

For leisure travel people will find other ways to get there or go to different places. They're not going to cancel all plans and wait until the railway decides they're allowed out again. And if it's messed them about all summer, why would you come back?

Leisure travel will just find another way then.

So if leisure travel doesn't need a railway, what is the point in having it in the first place?

The taxpayer could save billions to put towards the NHS instead...

 

[dk1]

So if leisure travel doesn't need a railway, what is the point in having it in the first place?

The taxpayer could save billions to put towards the NHS instead...

But then some of the NHS staff couldn’t get to work. Everything has implications in life.

Then don't expect much public sympathy.

I never have.

 

[ar10642]

So if leisure travel doesn't need a railway, what is the point in having it in the first place?

The taxpayer could save billions to put towards the NHS instead...

That is exactly what the government might say, yes.

 

[Djgr]

I'm not an economist. However, there are two sides (probably more) to consider with wage rises. You have the school of thought where wages should go up with inflation "cost of living" this is a good thing and should be supported. This is what keeps life affordable. If prices go up but wages stagnate, you start to create poverty and increase debt.

If everyone's wages outpace inflation then things start to devalue and you get supply issues. Wouldn't it be great if everyone could afford two cars in every garage and three eyes on every fish ? Inflation would happen and would be welcomed as it would help control the economy.

Sadly, everyone wages do not rise. The rich get richer and.. well, we know the rest.

Pensions and benefits tend to rise with inflation. Again, it keeps those in need inline with the cost of living.

This entire conversation would not be happening if inflation was 2% it's because Inflation is spiking and we are post pandemic. Cost of living rises have always been acceptable.

A 10% rise, for one industry, with the tiniest fraction of the population, is barely going to touch the sides.

This is like me saying;

"I'm not an engineer but this is how I think a diesel engine works."

 

[ComUtoR]

Either way's not good is it?

Nope. It certainly isn't.

We tend to watch out for each other and understand how small mistakes happen. When I've got a bat on a red, the platform staff member is very grateful that I've just given them a quick prompt to check the signal. They are instantly remorseful and glad that we are watching each others backs.

It's hard to drop someone in the brown stuff so yes, many people will let something like that slide.

Should that happen ? Well, no. That should be reported and potentially someone is out of a job.

A question that is often asked in an interview is how you deal with someone who has just made a mistake. Do yo work as a team and help each other or do you report it and not care ?

It would be difficult to prove you reported it purely because that person was someone you disliked.

 

[nanstallon]

In all fairness, the sheer amount of propaganda that is being put out by NR to the workforce and the government and some media to the public is getting people's backs up that are going on strike for legitimate, serious reasons, legally and democratically. If the people suggesting that actions come with consequences and that those going on strike are fair game for this criticism; then the same is true for people that are working or considering working during the strike. These people will know, even without telling them, that their colleagues will be disgusted with them. Their actions have consequences too. Seems fair to me.

Doing your job in accordance with your contract of employment should have consequences??

 

[Bald Rick]

I actually think the RMT have done everything right. They've set out their case reasonably - that's the only reason it won overwhelming support from its members, democratically and legally. It has also been proportionate in the action it is set. It is has done the media rounds, stated its taking strike action and given its position. However, the other side has chosen not to seriously engage and are being disingenuous and underhanded in offering people extra benefits and money to work strike days.

that might be your perspective of matters. The inside story is very very different!

The NR dispute is also about and more importantly staff cuts in maintainance, (and we know what the result of that would be) if you are happy for maintainance to be cut back even further....fair enough !

I need to call that out, sorry. The changes in maintenance are to adopt more modern working practices and make better use of technology, which results in fewer staff needed. Like has happened in almost every realm of industrial production. There’s an easy way of doing it, and a hard way. personally I don’t understand why the union won’t accept the easy way, but perhaps they will come round to it, loke they have before.

It is absolutely not about compromising the standard of maintenance, or safety, which I think was your implication.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is like me saying;

"I'm not an engineer but this is how I think a diesel engine works."

Im not a mechanic, but suck squeeze, bang, blow. Fuel, spark, vroom vroom.

Probably a glow plug somewhere.

 

[STKKK46]

It's just more and more reasons to never join this frankly ridiculous industry. I keep getting told this sort of stuff doesn't happen and it's a minority blah blah, but it's a recurring theme on this thread. Absolute joke that grown adults supposedly concerned about safety behave like this and the actual purpose of carrying passengers is not even a consideration when threatening to go ECS because of some problem people have invented that they were fine with the day before.

Nobody is ever fine with dispatch against a red, if you’re referring to that post with your bit on ‘threatening to go ECS’.

 

[exbrel]

It’s a simple equation. If you strike break on the railway, your colleagues will disown you.



Not bully, just dislike.

It’s a long old furrow to plough when nobody wants to so much as speak to you. Times that by twenty years…

Hence why basically nobody does it…

this is why we have secret ballots, and not a show of hands...

 

[ar10642]

Nobody is ever fine with dispatch against a red, if you’re referring to that post with your bit on ‘threatening to go ECS’.

He said he was in usual circumstances but on strike days it would be a problem.

 

[LowLevel]

Nope. It certainly isn't.

We tend to watch out for each other and understand how small mistakes happen. When I've got a bat on a red, the platform staff member is very grateful that I've just given them a quick prompt to check the signal. They are instantly remorseful and glad that we are watching each others backs.

It's hard to drop someone in the brown stuff so yes, many people will let something like that slide.

Should that happen ? Well, no. That should be reported and potentially someone is out of a job.

A question that is often asked in an interview is how you deal with someone who has just made a mistake. Do yo work as a team and help each other or do you report it and not care ?

It would be difficult to prove you reported it purely because that person was someone you disliked.

People shouldn't be out of a job for minor irregularities provided they're not committing them on a tediously regular basis - otherwise perhaps they should be out of that particular job and moved to something more suitable if available. The problem is when the system falls down, investigations unnecessarily turn into months on end sitting around with fact finding etc and then performance improvement plans are made to feel like a punishment rather than a constructive exercise - the fault with that lies squarely at the door of the management (as a whole, rather than individuals).

I've been on the receiving end of people trying to help out colleagues and it going spectacularly wrong with opportunities to intervene being missed as a result.

 

[STKKK46]

He said he was in usual circumstances but on strike days it would be a problem.

I think the point he was trying to make is that if he has a contingent guard on who isn’t experienced to the same standard, does the job once in a blue moon, and they dispatch against Red then he would feel less assured in taking the train forward with that guard on board.

Maybe there shouldn’t be a difference but I can see his point.

 

[footprints]

Statement from the RMT .

RMT Press Office:

RMT statement on the forthcoming Rail and Tube strikes

In the past few weeks, discussions have been taking place at senior level with Network Rail, Train Operators and London Underground.

Despite the best efforts of our negotiators no viable settlements to the disputes have been created.

It has to be re-stated that the source of these disputes is the decision by the Tory Government to cut £4bn of funding from our transport systems - £2bn from national rail and £2bn from Transport for London.

As a result of this transport austerity imposed by the Government, the employing companies have taken decisions to:

Savage the Railway Pension Scheme and the TFL scheme, cutting benefits, making staff work longer, and poorer in retirement, while paying increased contributions.
Thousands of job cuts across the rail networks.
Attacking terms, conditions and working practices in a form of internal fire and re-hire.
Cutting real pay for most of our members through lengthy pay freezes and below RPI inflation pay proposals.
In the face of this massive attack on our people the RMT cannot be passive.

So today, having heard the reports on the discussions that have been taking place we are confirming that the strike action scheduled to take place on 21st, 23rd and 25th June will go ahead.

We want a transport system that operates for the benefit of the people, for the needs of society and our environment – not for private profit.

We call on our members to stand firm, support the action, mount the pickets and demonstrate their willingness to fight for workplace justice.

Every worker in Britain deserves a pay rise that reflects the cost-of-living crises. All working people should have the benefit of good negotiated terms, conditions, working practices and occupational pensions that will ensure their living standards in retirement.

We call on the entire labour movement and the working people to rally to the support of the RMT and our members in this struggle.

The RMT will support every group of workers who organise and fight for these aims and we call for joint campaigning and coordinated action to achieve a better deal for workers and a fairer society.

RMT remains available for discussions that will settle this dispute and ensure our transport system can operate without disruption.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well you'll have to find the people we were speaking to every day and query it with them

They're no doubt not here anymore because apparently we "don't want foreigners".

 

[jayah]

Depends who you ask

Consultants: c. £95k
Senior managers: £60K
Qualified nurse: £30K
Cleaner: £24K

The NHS payroll is quoted as 1.2m FTE and the cost £56.1bn or about £47k per full time role.

The most glaring observation is about half the entire budget is spent on staff pay.

Strangely the perceived wisdom is that the only things the NHS needs are more staff and more money to pay more staff and more money to pay the current staff more.

King's Fund

In 2020/21 the Department for Health and Social Care spent £192 billion. This money is used to fund a wide range of health and care services, including GP services, ambulance, mental health, community and hospital services, which are commissioned by the NHS, and public health.

 

[High Dyke]

Talks have broken down according to the guardian and mirror this morning. RMT confirming strikes will go ahead - in part I think this is about applying a bit of pressure on Govt - what should happen is Mr Schapps should award a pay rise to rail workers , publicise it (lets says 4.5% or 5%) and see if the RMT call it off

RMT response to the Network Rail offer has been posted elsewhere on this thread.

As for Shapps. He would do well to take a history lesson on the impact previous cuts to rail maintenance took place. I believe that Hatfield comes under his parliamentary constituency. Whilst there has been a culture change since Network Rail was created, it does show the effect that a downturn in maintenance performance has. Even now track inspections have been reduced in many areas.

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20131001175041/http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/297.pdf

8.104 The Investigation identified a number of significant failings in Railtrack’s performance that contributed to the failure to maintain the line in a safe condition in the Welham Green area. The shortcomings showed Railtrack’s inability to discharge its responsibilities to maintain a safe infrastructure and effectively manage BBRML’s maintenance activities on ECML (S).

 

[ComUtoR]

People shouldn't be out of a job for minor irregularities provided they're not committing them on a tediously regular basis - otherwise perhaps they should be out of that particular job and moved to something more suitable if available. The problem is when the system falls down, investigations unnecessarily turn into months on end sitting around with fact finding etc and then performance improvement plans are made to feel like a punishment rather than a constructive exercise - the fault with that lies squarely at the door of the management (as a whole, rather than individuals).

This is the side of the job that outsiders don't often see. I'd also argue that its also something that colleagues don't often see. I went into Management trying to stick up for a colleague because I thought he was unfairly treated. What I didn't know was their horrific safety of the line record. All I saw was a Driver losing their job for a TPWS trip.

I've been on the receiving end of people trying to help out colleagues and it going spectacularly wrong with opportunities to intervene being missed as a result.

We had one where a Guard was trying to help the Driver and did something pretty stupid but because everyone thought they were working together it made the situation a lot worse.

Sometimes I don't realise how good I have it

 

[PupCuff]

Right but apparently he would normally let it slide. So it's either not that big of a deal and it only is on that day because it's a strike, or it should never happen and he's ignoring safety issues on non strike days presumably because he likes the people involved. Either way's not good is it?

It's just one of the rail industry's selective approaches to safety, like trains with a fault that are too unsafe to work at the start of a shift but fine for linespeed if it's a "going home train". It can be a challenging industry sometimes.

In the specific case upthread, staff involved will generally report themselves anyway which isn't a bother. All not reporting safety incidents does is stitch up your colleagues when a problem which could have been spotted and nipped in the bud escalates unnoticed and turns into a 'start against' SPAD.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Strangely the perceived wisdom is that the only things the NHS needs are more staff and more money to pay more staff and more money to pay the current staff more.

King's Fund

Why strangely?

 

[windingroad]

Wrong. Wrong. And Thrice Wrong. Please, don't ever consider being a trade union representative, because this is exactly how not to approach a negotiation.

In this scenario it is absolutely correct due to the government's approach, which is why (in case it has escaped your attention) a strike is going ahead!

 

[STKKK46]

It's just one of the rail industry's selective approaches to safety, like trains with a fault that are too unsafe to work at the start of a shift but fine for linespeed if it's a "going home train". It can be a challenging industry sometimes.

In the specific case upthread, staff involved will generally report themselves anyway which isn't a bother. All not reporting safety incidents does is stitch up your colleagues when a problem which could have been spotted and nipped in the bud escalates unnoticed and turns into a 'start against' SPAD.

Correct

 

[2021_Signaller]

So the government wrecked the railways economy with its lockdown policy ... railway workers to blame.
Inflation running at 11% due to government lockdown policy ... railway workers should be content with a 9% paycut judging by the risible offer from government and refusal to mitigate its unsafe modernisation proposals.

Remind me again why strike action is unreasonable? Government to blame, government to blame and er, government to blame.