Rail strikes discussion

[LNW-GW Joint]

Absolutely, the same scenario also appears to apply to Steve Rotherham with Merseyrail.

Wales (and Scotland) can plunder the rest of its Westminster funding for a rail settlement, but it will cost them somewhere in its budget.
Wales is in desperate straights with its NHS operation for instance.
I expect it will tell in reduced services somewhere as costs bite.

Merseyrail is a bit different, but Steve Rotheram somehow has to balance the cost of the Merseyrail operation with its fares and service level.
I don't really know how it can work when the basis of the 777 purchase was radical change in operational costs, none of which look likely to happen.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm sure someone will confirm though whether or not my previous statement is true though.

I can confirm.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

I think I can guess what‘s causing that. The routes between Wickford and Southminster, Witham and Braintree, Colchester and Colchester Town. and Colchester and Ipswich are all cleared for DOO. But in the days of 321s and 360s conductors were required for various reasons for 12 cars on all routes, and also 8 cars for Colchester Town.

Unless something has changed more recently (I observe from afar now!) the use of 720s (once there is enough of them - another story) with their on board cameras means 5 and 10 car 720s can be DOO on all these routes, so that’s where conductors are no longer required for operational duties.

But in a move in the opposite direction, as @dk1 says, conductors now work 755s between Cambridge and Stansted Airport on a route where 317s and 379s were previously DOO.

Off topic, but is "conductor" now the official term for what used to be called "guard"? At least in the BR days I am familiar with, of tank engines and slam door compartment stock

 

[TheEdge]

No inflation busting payrises for railway staff (or anyone except pensioners apparently), that would break the economy.

Birmingham Airport chief executive, 49% from £399,000 to £595,000.

 

[WiredUp]

Dieseldriver / ComUtoR ​

Thanks for that, a year is a lot of time and money, so I can understand the 'golden handcuffs', I wouldn't want to see the costs paid upfront - that doesn't do much for social mobility...

Interesting comment on the simulators, I would have thought they would have paid their way. But there you go.

 

[Watershed]

It will be interesting to see how the DfT would enforce a change to DOO given so much stock currently wouldn't support it.

That and I do wonder where we would stand with current agreements given WMT have an agreement that clearly states 172, 196 & 730 are to be worked to the current arrangements. No mention of date, so as long as member of RMT are employed could they really enforce such a change?

Nothing is carved in stone. Current pay rates are set down in an agreement and yet the unions (understandbaly) want to change them!

Ultimately the employer has the ultimate weapon of dismissal or redundancy, whilst the employee has industrial action or resignation. Employment on the same terms cannot be guaranteed for life.

 

[Signal_Box]

Nobody's forcing you to participate.

I’ve a fear of missing out….

 

[Dieseldriver]

Dieseldriver / ComUtoR ​

Thanks for that, a year is a lot of time and money, so I can understand the 'golden handcuffs', I wouldn't want to see the costs paid upfront - that doesn't do much for social mobility...

Interesting comment on the simulators, I would have thought they would have paid their way. But there you go.

the way in which simulators pay their way is to prepare Drivers for rarer scenarios of degraded working etc they may encounter out there and also to supplement their theoretical rules knowledge and make them better understand the rules and the risks associated with these scenarios. In turn, this should reduce the likelihood of potentially serious incidents.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

No inflation busting payrises for railway staff (or anyone except pensioners apparently), that would break the economy.

Birmingham Airport chief executive, 49% from £399,000 to £595,000.

If I was in charge of a business that had performed as badly as the airports recently I would think long and hard prior to accepting any sort of pay rise never mind one of that magnitude.

 

[bramling]

It's not my part of the industry, so excuse the question, but how many hours does it usually take to 'pass out' a new driver? How much efficiency is gained from using simulators? I wondered how comparable it is to training a new civil aviation pilot.

Simulators are virtually useless when it comes to actual driving. Their main purpose is doing things like defects or procedures, the sorts of stuff which doesn’t come up on a day-to-day basis but that drivers need to know how to handle in the rare event that it does.

To be fair, even some of the enthusiast ones nowadays are pretty realistic in terms of driving, but it simply doesn’t prepare for things like driving in adverse weather, night time, etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

No inflation busting payrises for railway staff (or anyone except pensioners apparently), that would break the economy.

Birmingham Airport chief executive, 49% from £399,000 to £595,000.

A pension is not pay. The measly state pension is an entitlement earned from decades of paying national insurance. The higher pension increases are now the higher your state pension will be when it comes to your turn. As it is the triple lock is not safe in this government's hands.

 

[ComUtoR]

To be fair, even some of the enthusiast ones nowadays are pretty realistic in terms of driving, but it simply doesn’t prepare for things like driving in adverse weather, night time, etc.

You could just turn the lights off in your bedroom but Mummy might get suspicious.

 

[TheEdge]

A pension is not pay. The measly state pension is an entitlement earned from decades of paying national insurance. The higher pension increases are now the higher your state pension will be when it comes to your turn. As it is the triple lock is not safe in this government's hands.

I'm never gonna get a state pension. My pension year is 2059, by 2046 its already planned to be 68. If it even still exists by 2059 (assuming a water/climate/nuclear war/apocalypse hasn't happened) it'll be well into the 70s. Retirement for my generation will be the grave, frankly I don't really know why I bother paying into a private pension.

 

[ComUtoR]

Ultimately the employer has the ultimate weapon of dismissal or redundancy

Can you explain how these are 'Weapons' ? Both come with some very explicit caveats and are generally a last resort.

 

[bramling]

You could just turn the lights off in your bedroom but Mummy might get suspicious.

To be fair, I was amazed just how good one of the Central Line sims is when it comes to manual driving, and yes for that one you’d want to be turning off the lights. The only real difference is stopping the thing just isn’t the same, and doing it on a computer doesn’t give you RSI after just a few hours!

Perhaps a point to add is that simulation is likely to be more useful when it comes to signalling. Indeed with a good simulator (and I mean proper one complete with desks laid out as per the real thing, and software as per the real thing) you could almost pass out a signaller for VDU-based systems. Obviously no chance for a manual box.

 

[nedchester]

Anyone can negotiate a 'deal' that involves handing over large sums of money for nothing....

I have said many times I am not the RMTs greatest fans but they do have a point about needing a higher pay rise than 2-3% when inflation is running at a much higher rate. 7% seems pretty reasonable to me.

I do think that there needs to be changes made but as Lynch says these should be part of negotiation. I think the issue is a lack of trust with the employers (the Government) and this is making matters worse.

Despite this I do think that Johnson will, if the dispute drags on, resort of fire and rehire although that may well change as long as the RMT maintain a larger slice of public support than i expected.

 

[Shrop]

I'm never gonna get a state pension. My pension year is 2059, by 2046 its already planned to be 68. If it even still exists by 2059 (assuming a water/climate/nuclear war/apocalypse hasn't happened) it'll be well into the 70s. Retirement for my generation will be the grave, frankly I don't really know why I bother paying into a private pension.

A lot of people opted out of pension schemes when they were younger (eg in the 1980s), with a similar view to yours, and most are seriously regretting it now. Advances in the health service have increased life expectancy, so those who thought they wouldn't see 70 and took that view that they may as well spend their money when they were young enough to enjoy it, are now sitting there in their 70s, still with plenty of life about them, but wishing they had more money to enjoy it.

 

[HuggyB87]

Look who funds Merseyrail and where the money is coming from to fund that increase.

According to the news article, it's coming from Merseyrail themselves; Merseyrail is a concession agreement, thats why it's not involved with the current strike action, nor did it receive any monies from the government during the pandemic bailouts. And unfortunately, it's one of the bystanders hit hardest with a whole network shutdown caused by the ongoing dispute.

An offer has been made to Guards as part of the separate, ongoing dispute over the role of Guard (will be known as a Train Manager) I believe any pay increase in this is being funded by the City Region; drivers are yet to be balloted

 

[Snow1964]

I'm never gonna get a state pension. My pension year is 2059, by 2046 its already planned to be 68. If it even still exists by 2059 (assuming a water/climate/nuclear war/apocalypse hasn't happened) it'll be well into the 70s. Retirement for my generation will be the grave, frankly I don't really know why I bother paying into a private pension.

You pay into a private pension so you have the option to retire at any time after 55, once you have saved enough. Not everyone wants to work to about 68

Treat the state pension as a bit of a top up when your savings run low as you approach 70. If you think state pension will be enough for your retirement then you had better expect a poverty retirement eating basic food and no luxuries.

 

[Watershed]

Can you explain how these are 'Weapons' ? Both come with some very explicit caveats and are generally a last resort.

They are, but for example with redundancy it's all about the process. Provided the right boxes are ticked (which a major employer like NR or the TOCs will almost always ensure) there is nothing that can really be done to fight it.

They are the most serious sanction that either side can resort to, and neither side wants it to end up there.

 

[ComUtoR]

To be fair, I was amazed just how good one of the Central Line sims is when it comes to manual driving, and yes for that one you’d want to be turning off the lights. The only real difference is stopping the thing just isn’t the same, and doing it on a computer doesn’t give you RSI after just a few hours!

My Son just downloaded *Train Sim as it had one of our routes on it. I'm always surprised how I can just look at it and identify where I am. I even tend to brake at the same points ! How can Dovetail recreate such detail and yet a TOC simulator is often pretty dire. I've used a route on our Sim in the past where it replicated a route and tbh it was pretty damn awesome. The Sim we have now (one of them) uses a route from another TOC as its second hand... I reckon I could sign the route !

Sims do have a lot of potential. You could train a route on one or a small diversionary for a refresher but consider that if you are taken off track for a day, get your job covered, or even lose a says driving for practical handling. You may as well go out and do it live on the real thing.

I even asked if I could take it home one day (one of ours is laptop based) and was told no


*train sim also lets me do all kinds of naughty and stupid things.

 

[bramling]

You pay into a private pension so you have the option to retire at any time after 55, once you have saved enough. Not everyone wants to work to about 68

Treat the state pension as a bit of a top up when your savings run low as you approach 70. If you think state pension will be enough for your retirement then you had better expect a poverty retirement eating basic food and no luxuries.

100%. There’s no way that a state pension would provide sufficient for anything other than a most basic standard of living, if that. You would need either savings, a private pension, or the ability to downsize on property (if owner outright). A lot of today’s pensioners do seem to have done fairly well on the latter, though never forget that social care in late life can also eat up a massive amount of money.

At the end of the day it is pretty remiss for people to expect to go into their pension years without having made some form of provision, plenty of people do it though.

They are, but for example with redundancy it's all about the process. Provided the right boxes are ticked (which a major employer like NR or the TOCs will almost always ensure) there is nothing that can really be done to fight it.

They are the most serious sanction that either side can resort to, and neither side wants it to end up there.

Where (some) railway staff have an advantage is that some roles take a long time and cost to train people for. The government shouldn’t really be wanting to have to resort to fire & rehire such people, though of course Johnson probably thinks trains are simply controlled by two buttons labelled go and stop.

 

[Ivor]

A pension is not pay. The measly state pension is an entitlement earned from decades of paying national insurance. The higher pension increases are now the higher your state pension will be when it comes to your turn. As it is the triple lock is not safe in this government's hands.

Having posted a fair bit on this thread the past few days along with a few other senior citizens when ‘pension bashing’ was raised as a working pension in the railway I wanted to say in one paragraph you have enforced the message & summed up perfectly.

Great post

 

[Nippy]

That's quite interesting. I personally would've expected them to stay given the greater job security with working on the railway, but then I suppose that depends on which aviation staff you refer to. Seeing as you mentioned signallers I imagine a fair few were former air traffic controllers, right?

24 pilots and a few air traffic controllers were employed at TVSC. There are three left. Most of the others didn’t pass out for a workstation or only passed out for one before leaving….

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm never gonna get a state pension. My pension year is 2059, by 2046 its already planned to be 68. If it even still exists by 2059 (assuming a water/climate/nuclear war/apocalypse hasn't happened) it'll be well into the 70s. Retirement for my generation will be the grave, frankly I don't really know why I bother paying into a private pension.

More fool you.

 

[Bald Rick]

No you can't rent an a320 but the number of hours you need on an a320 is a fraction of the total hours of flying time. Think a A320 type rating has on 32 hours of flying time in an A320 simulator.

Not like the huge amount of driving hours needed on real railway. Hence my comment on the rubbish train simulators we have.

its typically a 6-8 week course, assuming you are already a commercial pilot.

thats similar in concept to learnign a new type of traction once you are already a qualified driver.

 

[Sorcerer]

24 pilots and a few air traffic controllers were employed at TVSC. There are three left. Most of the others didn’t pass out for a workstation or only passed out for one before leaving….

I'm a little surprised so few air traffic controllers were among the field of candidates but then I imagine there's greater job security in that field than there is with being a pilot since airlines have been hit heavily by the pandemic and will no doubt be making several cutbacks. I'm not sure how much stronger their job protection and unions are compared to railway workers.

 

[TravelDream]

Some routes are introducing this for signallers I believe - they were burnt by having ex-aviation staff who then promptly returned to aviation roles in 2021/2022…

Are air traffic controllers (who I presume you're talking about) really paid much better than signallers?

NATS says:

On joining as a Trainee Air Traffic Controller, you’ll get a basic salary of £18,001, along with an attractive benefits package. This will include everything from a contributory pension scheme and generous annual leave to a whole host of voluntary benefits and family friendly policies.
Because we recognise the costs associated with accommodation when you’re training, we also provide a weekly payment of £60* to help you cover your expenses. You may also be eligible to claim a further £1,000* on completion of your initial college-based training (subject to conditional criteria).
Once you’ve completed and passed all of your training (college and unit), your salary will rise to £39,002* – £43,469* and, with increments, you could potentially earn over £100,000* (inclusive of shift pay) at some of our busiest units. (*2021 rates).

Trainee Air Traffic Controllers - NATS

NATS provides safe and efficient air traffic services and innovative solutions to UK and international airports, airlines and governments.

www.nats.aero

It looks pretty comparable to the railway TBH.

 

[Exscrew]

Are air traffic controllers (who I presume you're talking about) really paid much better than signallers?

NATS says:

Trainee Air Traffic Controllers - NATS

NATS provides safe and efficient air traffic services and innovative solutions to UK and international airports, airlines and governments.

www.nats.aero

It looks pretty comparable to the railway TBH.

They earn alot more than signallers, my friend works for NATS.
Senior ATC earn 120k easily

 

[158756]

24 pilots and a few air traffic controllers were employed at TVSC. There are three left. Most of the others didn’t pass out for a workstation or only passed out for one before leaving….

I don't generally think being overqualified should count against people in recruitment, but employing so many pilots in a job requiring significant training during a short term downturn in the aviation industry does seem like it was tempting fate a bit.