Rail Study to consider linking Leeds to Edinburgh using Settle to Carlisle

[syorksdeano]

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/...ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

A SEVEN month long study has been launched to explore the potential of extending an historic Scottish railway to link with world famous Settle to Carlisle line.

It could lead to the full restoration of the 98 miles Borders Railway - commonly known as the Waverley route - between Edinburgh and Carlisle.

The first 35 miles, as far as Tweedbank, re-opened in 2015 and has been a huge success story, carrying over 20,000 passengers a week.

The full link - possibly taking ten years to achieve - would provide an alternative rail route between Leeds and Edinburgh.

It would open car-free access to market towns along the Settle-Carlisle line from southern Scotland and to the Borders country from West and North Yorkshire, a boost to tourism and the rural economies.

And it would give a railway offering world-class scenery for much of the 211 miles from Leeds to Edinburgh, attracting huge numbers of international tourists.

Steve Broadbent, director of the Settle-Carlisle Railway Development Company, said: “A through Leeds-Carlisle-Edinburgh train service would be a ‘must-do experience’ for tourists, 200 miles of breath-taking British scenery.

"This key market for rail travel needs to be properly reflected in Borders Railway re-opening evaluations. The Scottish and Westminster governments must work closely together to maximise the potential of a fully re-opened Anglo-Scottish route.”

Putting it into historical context, Mark Rand, Joint Vice Chairman of the 3500-member Friends of the Settle-Carlisle Line said: “People often ask why did the Victorians build a railway line from tiny Settle to the border city of Carlisle.

"It was part of a much greater whole - the Midland Railway's main route from London St Pancras to Scotland via Leeds and Carlisle, from where what is today called the Borders Railway continued to Edinburgh.

The study was announced by Scotland's Transport Minister and will als look at how to improve access from the Scottish Borders to key markets in Edinburgh, Carlisle and Newcastle.

The Borders Railway was historically known as the Waverley route because of its connection with Scottish author Sir Walter Scott.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I think huge numbers of international tourists is being somewhat optimistic

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm willing to bet anyone £100 that this won't happen within the next 20 years. I can't see how anyone would ever think it was worth investing in.

 

[bluenoxid]

Would be better to focus on Manchester

 

[Taunton]

The full link - possibly taking ten years to achieve - would provide an alternative rail route between Leeds and Edinburgh.

Surely there are already two alternative routes between Leeds and Edinburgh, one hourly direct via York, the other changing at Carlisle.

And anyway, what with Health & Safety mandated overheight "tombstone" seats, and interior layouts where seats are no longer capable of being arranged to line up with the windows, or the whole saloon faces backwards, the days of using trains for sightseeing (other than in old Mk 1 charter stock) have surely come to an end.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lancaster-Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh is just as much a "world-class scenic railway" as Leeds-Carlisle-Galashiels-Edinburgh.
Leeds-Edinburgh is anyway much faster via the ECML.
The economics of the S&C itself are now precarious with the loss of nearly all its freight traffic.
There is next to no freight traffic which would use the Waverley route, although I know there is talk of timber from Kielder Forest using it.
Carlisle is not a major traffic centre on the scale of Edinburgh or Leeds.

 

[swt_passenger]

All this means is that another local rag has lately discovered the proposal discussed at some length last month in this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145163

It doesn't make extending the borders line any more likely AFAICS.

 

[Ianno87]

You'll never in a million years justify such a significant reopening on tourism benefits alone.

It needs a 'bread and butter' existence to even come close, i.e. connecting housing (i.e. Hawick) to jobs (i.e. Carlisle and Edinburgh)

 

[nottinghamcity]

And of course it will actually start at Nottingham.

goes and hides

 

[6Gman]

And of course it will actually start at Nottingham.

goes and hides

With through XC trains to Brighton?

 

[me123]

It takes just over three hours to take the regular services directly between Edinburgh and Leeds via the ECML. On the S&C, you will be just North of Carlisle and still have probably a couple of hours to go? :?

So who's the market for this? People who want to go direct will go on the ECML. People who want to go for the scenery would go that way anyway (obviously via Lockerbie rather than Galashiels, but it's still a nice run). It's a bit of a ridiculous attempt to make a business case for the Tweedbank - Carlisle extension.

 

[Bald Rick]

With through XC trains to Brighton?

Formed of Class 442s

(Do I win the thread?)

 

[route101]

Glasgow to Leeds via Settle is a service id like to see again .

 

[Clansman]

Pffft.

No wonder the Transport Minister looked so glum on my train an hour ago!

 

[Altnabreac]

You'll never in a million years justify such a significant reopening on tourism benefits alone.

It needs a 'bread and butter' existence to even come close, i.e. connecting housing (i.e. Hawick) to jobs (i.e. Carlisle and Edinburgh)

133 people live in Scottish Borders and work in Carlisle.

31 people live in Carlisle and work in Scottish Borders.

Let me add some more 0s to that business case...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It would open car-free access to market towns along the Settle-Carlisle line from southern Scotland and to the Borders country from West and North Yorkshire, a boost to tourism and the rural economies.

Talk about blind optimism. Southern Scotland, ie the area south of the central belt away from the Ayrshire coast, is mile after mile of emptiness with a few villages and the occasional small town. And I'm sure the people of Yorkshire can't wait for a direct service enabling them to see... a woollen mill or two.

 

[Condor7]

The economics of the S&C itself are now precarious with the loss of nearly all its freight traffic.

I challenged a similar statement on another thread recently.
Don't get me wrong freight traffic is no where near what it used to be, but there is more than some seem to think.

There are two trains a day from Arcow quarry (one out and one back)
The daily (MX) Hull to Kirkby Thore (one out one back)
The (MWFO) Mossend to Clitheroe (one out one back)
The (MWFO) Drax to Killock coal
The (MO) Crewe to Carlisle engineers
Although early days this week saw the (WFO) Carlisle to Chirk logs return on the Wednesday.

 

[47271]

The nonsense spoken around restoring the Waverley route normally assumes starting in Scotland and working south.

It's refreshing to see that nonsense can travel northbound just as easily.

 

[70014IronDuke]

133 people live in Scottish Borders and work in Carlisle.

31 people live in Carlisle and work in Scottish Borders.

Let me add some more 0s to that business case...

I'm afraid I find this typical of the negative and blinkered thinking of naysayers.

Why do you only quote Carlisle as the only source for traffic?

A re-opened Waverley- S&C link would enable Appleby workers to access economic potential in Hawick, Dentdale sheep farmers to share knowledge and liase with their peers around Riccarton Jcn, and jobless teenagers in Settle and Hellifield to consider life-changing career openings in Longtown and Langholm.

I suggest you think of the broader picture before condemning entrepreneurial thinking with a few narrow statistics cherry-picked to back your case, Sir!

EDIT:

 

[najaB]

I'm afraid I find this typical of the negative and blinkered thinking of naysayers...

Post of the week!

 

[InOban]

It is no wonder that campaigns with realistic proposals have such trouble getting taken seriously when there are so many ludicrous ideas being aired in threads like this.

 

[Gareth]

How long would the end-the-end journey times be on this?

 

[Blindtraveler]

At a gues 5hrs or so end to end assuming the anglo Scottish services were all stops to Carlisle then Ppleby, Kirkby Steven, Settle, Skipton, shiply (in its roll as a North Bradford and surrounding areas parkway station) and Leeds.

If you can overlook the Scottish Govds clutching at straws tourist obsessed wibble and consider the wider benifits then I think its a gdoo idea, although doubling of the existing section and a rebuild of Portobello JN in Edinburgh would need to be in there somewhere. This would remove some freight from the WcML and allow the route to carry decent numbers of diverted WCML services when the mainline is shut, iether under their own power or Loco Hauled. Both hub stations at Edinburgh and Carlisle are fully up to this type of opperation and in normal opperation of resourcing such things as train crew, catering supplies, onboard cleaners and duty fitters.

the stock wouldnt need to be over fancy and as long as it could climb hills and do 90 or 100 max would be fine, with a suitable interior of couese.

 

[PR1Berske]

This is the kind of over ambitious project you'd expect from a wide-eyed naïve child armed with crayons and a GB road map. Will never happen. Move on.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I love the description of the Scottish transport minister, quite accurat!

I woant move on though as I think it could work

 

[ChiefPlanner]

At about £3 a tonne for timber transport - you will need a lot of subsidy ......so not much of a business case there am afraid.

 

[kevconnor]

Genuine question here for those who promote the idea. It seem to be accepted wisdom that a restored route wouldn't be any quicker than the current offerings, so one of the arguments is that it would be good for diversions when the main routes are closed.

Given the current franchise incumbents don't seem too enamoured with keeping up route knowledge on current potential diversionary routes such as via little north western what evidence is there to suggest they would be clambering over themselves to learn a new route such as this?

 

[InOban]

At about £3 a tonne for timber transport - you will need a lot of subsidy ......so not much of a business case there am afraid.

You're right. I've heard of countless schemes to load timber from isolated forests, during the night, on trains stopped on plain track. I don't think any ever happened. Instead our roads are cluttered up with, and being steadily wrecked by, truckloads of timber going this way and that.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You're right. I've heard of countless schemes to load timber from isolated forests, during the night, on trains stopped on plain track. I don't think any ever happened. Instead our roads are cluttered up with, and being steadily wrecked by, truckloads of timber going this way and that.

In certain cases ,I am told the value of the timber was hardly worth harvesting when compared to very cheap imports from elsewhere. Attempts to load on the Cambrian were thwarted by local haulage protestations,. They obviously work on a different economic model .... "sans transhipment"

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont know for certain but I dont think they are over keen on cross border bustitutions as the road particular to Edinburgh is slow.
GSW diversions are more common than stuff in the Northwest.