Railcard Fine - Clarification Trainline App

[SMCG]

I travelled from Rugby to Euston in March with my partner who applied a railcard to her ticket on my phone (assuming that’s fine as she has a railcard and it only applies to 1 ticket so she claims)

I then travelled from Nuneaton to Euston for two again last week, and since I booked it myself (never get trains so don’t understand it much) it was full price (no railcard discount seemed to be applied). You can see the extent that I take trains in my booking history. A total of 4 trips. I don’t understand how these apps work very well but you can clearly see the difference in price from the first trip to Euston compared to the second with no discount applied.

I then travelled a 15 minute journey from Coventry to Birmingham New Street on Saturday and was checked by an inspector at the gate who asked to see my railcard (I had no idea the railcard discount applied) and was given a fine.

It showed the discounted price on my app before purchasing but I just assumed it would be something to do with different peak times or whatever. I wouldn’t know what the price of a ticket should be. In a rush (you can see I booked the ticket 12 minutes before departure on the journey to the station) I didn’t know it was a railcard discount and it must’ve applied my partners railcard itself on the search as I didn’t apply it?

Has this happened before to anyone else? Has a railcard automatically applied itself? I’m confused how it’s happened as I must have removed it to purchase the tickets from Nuneaton to Euston in April. Im clearly not interested in saving £2 or whatever it is on a short fare ticket when I wasn’t bothered about fair evading on a journey from Nuneaton to Euston which is obviously substantially more.

It’s only a £50 fine but will most likely be more now because as soon as he printed and handed me the fine I scrunched it up and binned it right in front of him. I have no respect for these train companies who are probably non-uk owned, and revenue protection officers upholding foreign investment companies extracting profits and taking advantage of everyday people who want to save a couple quid during a cost of living crisis (I’m not one of them people I will pay full price and I’m definitely not risking a £50 fine over saving £3). Sorry if I offend anyone.

I’m obviously not sorry for accidentally committing fraud over £3 but just want to know if this is something worth appealing and does it hold any weight. Would really prefer not to cave to these leeches out of principle.

 

[John R]

It’s only a £50 fine but will most likely be more now because as soon as he printed and handed me the fine I scrunched it up and binned it right in front of him. I have no respect for these train companies who are probably non-uk owned, and revenue protection officers upholding foreign investment companies extracting profits and taking advantage of everyday people who want to save a couple quid during a cost of living crisis

Just to put you straight on this point (not that it is relevant to the situation you are in), but all the revenue from all train operators (excluding the very few "Open Access ones"), goes straight to the government, which also pays the costs of running the network. The rail network has been effectively nationalised for the last 5 years.

How do you propose appealing the fine if you no longer have the ticket and presumably the reference and details of how to appeal?

But I would say that Penalty Fares (which appears to be what you have had) are there for genuine mistakes, and not for where fare evasion is suspected. So unless there was some mistake in the way the PF was worded - difficult for you to comment on if you no longer have it) then it is hard to see how an appeal can be successful. However, just for clarity, which operator were you travelling on - that could be relevant?

We sometimes draw the analogy of someone who creeps above the speed limit unintentionally or misses a reduction in speed limit sign and gets caught. Irritating, but in both cases you broke the law, and the penalty is there partly to ensure you are more careful next time. Whether it's £3 or £100, the railway doesn't differentiate I'm afraid, else where do you draw the line.

 

[Trainman40083]

Just to put you straight on this point (not that it is relevant to the situation you are in), but all the revenue from all train operators (excluding the very few "Open Access ones"), goes straight to the government, which also pays the costs of running the network. The rail network has been effectively nationalised for the last 5 years.

How do you propose appealing the fine if you no longer have the ticket and presumably the reference and details of how to appeal?

But I would say that Penalty Fares (which appears to be what you have had) are there for genuine mistakes, and not for where fare evasion is suspected. So unless there was some mistake in the way the PF was worded - difficult for you to comment on if you no longer have it) then it is hard to see how an appeal can be successful. However, just for clarity, which operator were you travelling on - that could be relevant?

We sometimes draw the analogy of someone who creeps above the speed limit unintentionally or misses a reduction in speed limit sign and gets caught. Irritating, but in both cases you broke the law, and the penalty is there partly to ensure you are more careful next time. Whether it's £3 or £100, the railway doesn't differentiate I'm afraid, else where do you draw the line.

The 13.30 ex Coventry suggests Cross Country Trains. As you rightly say, all fare revenue goes to the Government since the start of COVID.

 

[John R]

The 13.30 ex Coventry suggests Cross Country Trains. As you rightly say, all fare revenue goes to the Government since the start of COVID.

If that's the case, an open question to the experts here, can XC apply penalty fares?

 

[SMCG]

Just to put you straight on this point (not that it is relevant to the situation you are in), but all the revenue from all train operators (excluding the very few "Open Access ones"), goes straight to the government, which also pays the costs of running the network. The rail network has been effectively nationalised for the last 5 years.

How do you propose appealing the fine if you no longer have the ticket and presumably the reference and details of how to appeal?

But I would say that Penalty Fares (which appears to be what you have had) are there for genuine mistakes, and not for where fare evasion is suspected. So unless there was some mistake in the way the PF was worded - difficult for you to comment on if you no longer have it) then it is hard to see how an appeal can be successful. However, just for clarity, which operator were you travelling on - that could be relevant?

We sometimes draw the analogy of someone who creeps above the speed limit unintentionally or misses a reduction in speed limit sign and gets caught. Irritating, but in both cases you broke the law, and the penalty is there partly to ensure you are more careful next time. Whether it's £3 or £100, the railway doesn't differentiate I'm afraid, else where do you draw the line.

That’s cleared things up for me thank you. I just read that the structure is now quasi-nationalised, even though the operators remain private, didn’t know profits remained internal. Not familiar with train politics.

In the heat of the moment I chucked it but they asked for an address so I’ll appeal when I receive something in the post.

I was more concerned with whether or not Trainline seemingly automatically adding the railcard to my purchase despite me removing it prior would hold any weight in an appeal, or if it’s happened to anyone else. Like I said I didn’t want to fraud a £110 journey nevermind an £8 one to save a couple quid.

 

[John R]

In the heat of the moment I chucked it but they asked for an address so I’ll appeal when I receive something in the post.

So I'm guessing you haven't paid, if you're expecting a reminder?

Unfortunately, you'll likely only get a reminder letter once the time period for an appeal (21 days) has elapsed, so you probably won't get a chance to do so. And by the time you get a reminder the cost will have risen from £50 to £100, as again there is a 21 day limit for paying the lower amount.

 

[furlong]

Do you think it was a Penalty Fare? If so, I think you should try to contact the train company concerned (West Midland?) and obtain another copy of it so you can appeal.
If you travelled on Cross Country then it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations.

You won't get a reminder until it's too late to appeal. It'll be much easier to deal with if you can lodge an appeal within the time limit.

 

[SteveM70]

In the heat of the moment I chucked it but they asked for an address so I’ll appeal when I receive something in the post

I'm afraid it won't work like that. They won't get in touch until you don't pay the penalty fare (which I assume you can't as you don't know the reference number etc), by which time its too late to appeal

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If that's the case, an open question to the experts here, can XC apply penalty fares?

According to post #1, the OP was stopped at the gate at Birmingham New Street, so may well be dealing with West Midlands Trains revenue staff. BTW, what's the likely upshot for the OP if the penalty fare remains unpaid for a period of time (difficult to pay/appeal it, if the docket has been thrown away)?

 

[SteveM70]

Do you think it was a Penalty Fare? If so, I think you should try to contact the train company concerned and obtain another copy of it so you can appeal.
If you travelled on Cross Country then it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations.

The PF was issued "at the gate" according to the OP, so presumably at New Street. What governs the validity of the PF? Where its issued or how the OP got there?

 

[furlong]

The PF was issued "at the gate" according to the OP, so presumably at New Street. What governs the validity of the PF? Where its issued or how the OP got there?

Depends - this thread is only about one specific case. Let's wait for the OP to confirm the operator of the train alighted.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Firstly, Trainline app does have a setting where a previously applied railcard is 'remembered' for future journeys. They do this to make purchasing tickets easier but it does seem to trip some people up. We've had quite a few cases like this on here and I would encourage you to contact Trainline to complain about this. You don't have to use Trainline to buy tickets, other ticket retailers are available (including one operated by this forum, which helps toward the forum running costs).

Next, let's deal with the Nuneaton to Euston tickets. We really need to know exactly what ticket was purchased that cost £108 to be able to comment properly. Looking at BRFares which shows the price of every tickets available I cannot see a ticket between Nuneaton and Euston costing £108.

Finally, let's consider the incident where you were caught. Legally speaking you had an invalid ticket, which (however harsh it sounds) is a criminal offence and the train company is entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. From what you've told us it seems as though you were given a Penalty Fareb ut discarded it, meaning you haven't got the details to pay it or appeal it. You really need to try and find the reference so that payment can be made. We could do with knowing which train company you're dealing with but generally speaking train companies will offer an out of court settlement to deal with situation like this, as long as you co-operate with them and haven't come to their attention before.

If you do nothing then that matter will escalate and become more expensive. I think the best way to proceed, if you cannot find the Penalty Fare reference number, is to wait for their letter and when it comes post a redacted copy in this thread along with your draft reply and we can proof read it for you. My advice is to keep it short and concise mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

I would not mention anything about the ownership of train companies, leeches, cost of living crisis etc in your reply if you want the best chance of a favourable outcome. While I understand that this sort of thing is frustrating ultimately it is your responsibility to check you have the correct ticket before you start your journey.

 

[Knoodlepot]

If it was at the gates at Birmingham new Street it will have been either TfW or WMR that issued the PF.
As both are now known to work together at those gates along with Cross Country (Who do not PF) and Avanti revenue.

You can email WMR customer service tell them the time and date roughly, you will also have to give your name, DoB and probaly Post code. They will send those details to the revenue team who might be able to look it up of you.
I am not sure if you can contact iRCAS and also ask with info to see if they can find it on their database.

 

[SteveM70]

Firstly, Trainline app does have a setting where a previously applied railcard is 'remembered' for future journeys

It feels almost cheeky (slightly!) correcting something Hadders has said as they’re so knowledgeable, but I think it’s worth pointing out that Trainline is configured to “remember” railcards, rather than it being a setting which might imply something that could be changed by the user