Railcards and leap years

[Adam Williams]

Yesterday (20/04/2023) I purchased a 16-25 Railcard from LNER. It was advertised as valid for "1 year" on LNER's website. When I added it to my device, it had an expiry of 19th April 2024.

Presumably the (undocumented!) logic here is 365 day validity, 2024 being a leap year. I believe the spec is silent on this matter and just says they "can be fulfilled digitally with a period validity of one or three [calendar] years". There are no accreditation tests in this area (much like the time of day the railcard expires which RDG/Kin+Carter (?) previously screwed up).

The official Railcard FAQs make reference to railcards "expiring the day before someone's 27th birthday" which to me implies it should be calendar-year-based.

Was I cheated out of a day of validity, and if so - where can I claim my ~8p refund?

 

[jfollows]

It's valid on the day you bought it - 20/4/23 - and then until and including 19/4/24, that's exactly one year. It has nothing to do with leap years.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's valid on the day you bought it - 20/4/23 - and then until 19/4/24, that's exactly one year. It has nothing to do with leap years.

It was purchased at 23:02 - that's not a year of validity

 

[miklcct]

Yesterday (20/04/2023) I purchased a 16-25 Railcard from LNER. It was advertised as valid for "1 year" on LNER's website. When I added it to my device, it had an expiry of 19th April 2024.

Presumably the (undocumented!) logic here is 365 day validity, 2024 being a leap year. I believe the spec is silent on this matter and just says they "can be fulfilled digitally with a period validity of one or three [calendar] years". There are no accreditation tests in this area (much like the time of day the railcard expires which RDG/Kin+Carter (?) previously screwed up).

The official Railcard FAQs make reference to railcards "expiring the day before someone's 27th birthday" which to me implies it should be calendar-year-based.

Was I cheated out of a day of validity, and if so - where can I claim my ~8p refund?

What's the expiry date of a 1-year railcard bought on 1 March this year?

 

[jfollows]

It was purchased at 23:02 - that's not a year of validity

Tough. You should have waited until 00:01.

 

[Adam Williams]

Tough. You should have waited until 00:01.

At which point I wouldn't have been eligible to purchase the railcard!

 

[BigB]

It was purchased at 23:02 - that's not a year of validity

It is, you can purchase tickets with it once bought.

 

[jfollows]

At which point I wouldn't have been eligible to purchase the railcard!

In which case you should have bought it 24 hours earlier at 00:01.

 

[adamello]

It was purchased at 23:02 - that's not a year of validity

you bought it on the 20th, is valid from (and including) the 20th, it's irrelevant to the system that there was only 58 mins left in the day

 

[Adam Williams]

In which case you should have bought it 24 hours earlier at 00:01.

So can you use a 16-25 railcard the day before your 27th birthday - as the FAQ suggests - or is it impossible to actually buy one valid including that day?

 

[4COR]

It was purchased at 23:02 - that's not a year of validity

It can hardly expire part way through the day can it? I would take advantage of the extra day in the Leap Year and use it as much as possible on the 29th Feb...

The clause about expiry on the day before a person's 27th birthday is surely to make sure that a 3 year card isn't purchased as late as possible and carries on until they are very almost 29 years of age.

 

[Adam Williams]

It can hardly expire part way through the day can it?

I mean, I see no technical reason it couldn't expire part-way through the day. There may be usability concerns with such a proposal!
Ultimately there's very little in the way of concrete information about when a railcard should expire in relation to the expiry date on the card (23:59:59.99999? 04:29 the next day?) and this has been debated here in another thread. I think the actual official reference implementation considers the railcard expired from 00:00 on the following day.

 

[Haywain]

So can you use a 16-25 railcard the day before your 27th birthday - as the FAQ suggests - or is it impossible to actually buy one valid including that day?

Presumably, you can buy a 3-year railcard on your 24th birthday, and that would expire the day before your 27th.

 

[Adam Williams]

Presumably, you can buy a 3-year railcard on your 24th birthday, and that would expire the day before your 27th.

I agree what you've said makes sense - the RDG FAQ does imply you can't do this though, "you can buy them up until the day before your 24th birthday"

 

[island]

All new station and digital Railcards are issued as valid until the preceding calendar day in the next calendar year, giving a year's validity. Expiring on the same calendar day in the next calendar year would give a year and a day's validity. (Railcards that are posted may have extra time added to account for postal delays, and renewals will be valid from the day after the previous Railcard expires.)

Quibbling about getting some fraction of a day less because you chose to purchase the Railcard late in the day is plumbing depths of triviality even for Railforums

At which point I wouldn't have been eligible to purchase the railcard!

Happy birthday!

 

[185143]

All new station and digital Railcards are issued as valid until the preceding calendar day in the next calendar year, giving a year's validity. Expiring on the same calendar day in the next calendar year would give a year and a day's validity. (Railcards that are posted may have extra time added to account for postal delays, and renewals will be valid from the day after the previous Railcard expires.)

Quibbling about getting some fraction of a day less because you chose to purchase the Railcard late in the day is plumbing depths of triviality even for Railforums

Happy birthday!

On that note, and it's relevant to me in the scarily not too distant future.

Can one apply for a 3 year railcard to be posted the day before their 24th birthday, and still use it for the extra days after your 27th birthday?

Granted, even if the answer is technically no, it'd be very difficult if not impossible to even detect, never mind enforce.

 

[Haywain]

I agree what you've said makes sense - the RDG FAQ does imply you can't do this though, "you can buy them up until the day before your 24th birthday"

Well, I know two of us who aren't going to be able to put that to the test! Happy birthday.

On that note, and it's relevant to me in the scarily not too distant future.

Can one apply for a 3 year railcard to be posted the day before their 24th birthday, and still use it for the extra days after your 27th birthday?

Granted, even if the answer is technically no, it'd be very difficult if not impossible to even detect, never mind enforce.

I think it is safe to assume that you won't get an expiry date on or after your 27th birthday. Now, the question is will you be testing out the ability to buy one on your 24th birthday?!

 

[nw1]

So can you use a 16-25 railcard the day before your 27th birthday - as the FAQ suggests - or is it impossible to actually buy one valid including that day?

Always used to be the case, though in my day it was the day before your 26th birthday, not 27th. I don't think I did this, I bought my last one maybe 2 weeks before my 26th birthday but it remained valid during the majority of the year I was 26. And thankfully after that, living in the by-then-ex-NSE area, I just switched to the Network Railcard.

(Has the age limit increased by one year now? I'd guess not as it's called "16-25" implying it would be impossible to be valid when you're 27. I do remember it had previously increased: at one point it was 16-23 but thankfully before my time).

 

[XAM2175]

All new station and digital Railcards are issued as valid until the preceding calendar day in the next calendar year, giving a year's validity. Expiring on the same calendar day in the next calendar year would give a year and a day's validity. (Railcards that are posted may have extra time added to account for postal delays, and renewals will be valid from the day after the previous Railcard expires.)

Quibbling about getting some fraction of a day less because you chose to purchase the Railcard late in the day is plumbing depths of triviality even for Railforums

In fairness, while it's not a big deal, I can see why the OP would feel that this was a bit of sharp practice. A customer-friendly system would give the one-year-and-one-day validity so as to ensure everybody got the promised year, even if that did mean that some people got a 'free day', in effect, by buying early in the day and using it to discount tickets immediately. Said system, if designed by suitably pedantic people, could just as easily include a "then subtract one day" catch for leap years

Let's not forget too that RDG's Railcard app still marks digital Railcards as expired 24 hours earlier than they actually should.

 

[1955LR]

In my view a 3 year railcard is 3 years whether it includes a leap year or not. If they want to say its only 1095 days , that's what should be advertised and sold . I had a similar argument about car warranty with a leap year and got it changed 1096 days

 

[Wallsendmag]

In my view a 3 year railcard is 3 years whether it includes a leap year or not. If they want to say its only 1095 days , that's what should be advertised and sold . I had a similar argument about car warranty with a leap year and got it changed 1096 days

Do you buy season tickets?

 

[RJ]

Quibbling about getting some fraction of a day less because you chose to purchase the Railcard late in the day is plumbing depths of triviality even for Railforums

Happy birthday!

I must concur with this sentiment, and also wish the OP a Happy Birthday!

 

[zero]

Well, I know two of us who aren't going to be able to put that to the test! Happy birthday.

I think it is safe to assume that you won't get an expiry date on or after your 27th birthday. Now, the question is will you be testing out the ability to buy one on your 24th birthday?!

I bought a 3 year on the last day possible and it was valid for a week after my birthday. I think it also arrived very quickly so I got something like 3 years and 10 days out of it

 

[Adam Williams]

Appreciate all the birthday wishes!