Railstaff - Patience now at a premium

[O L Leigh]

I'm afraid that the time has come to let the forum have both barrels. I, and others, have been patient, bided our time and done all we can to be magnanimous, but I'm afraid that my patience has just run out.

It seems that most days I visit the forum I'm having to explain and defend the actions of drivers and other members of staff and stand up for them in threads where other members are baying for blood. It's very tiring and really quite demoralising and, on occasion, I have been on the point of jacking the whole thing in as a bad lot. Some people here are far worse than even the most nit-picking managers and seem to be very quick to advocate dismissal. So many times I've patiently gone round and round explaining the same thing over and over again, and it's a thankless task because it makes not one iota of difference. All I do is wear myself out. I don't wish to be thanked or venerated, but equally I don't expect to have everything I say endlessly disected and pored over or be held up to ridicule simply because the railways don't do whatever you think it is we should be doing. Just a little courtesy and respect would go a long way.

To be entirely honest, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the whole thing. I know my job and have as good an understanding of the demands it makes as anyone else here, and a far better understanding than some others. I don't need to justify my actions to anyone but my employer, so please leave me alone to get on with it. I will not defend the indefensible, but strongly disapprove of "trial by forum" in regard to matters that should properly be handled under a company's disciplinary procedures. The railway can quite adequately police itself thank you very much, and those members of staff who do not meet the required standards will be dealt with accordingly. Report something if you must, but please do so using the appropriate channels.

Enough is enough. Railstaff like myself are discouraged by the conduct of this forum. I would never dare to argue back to someone in a different profession no matter how much I think I know about it.

O L Leigh

 

[tom1649]

Absolutely agree with you. If i was in a managerial position I would always stand up for my staff wherever possible. Sure, everyone makes mistakes, but quite often a simple word is enough to set matters straight. Life is often too short for the stress and aggro of formal disciplinary proceedings unless as an absolute last resort.

 

[O L Leigh]

I was referring specifically to the treatment we get HERE on THIS forum, rather than at work.

O L Leigh

 

[tom1649]

Yes I understood that. Was just saying that I agreed with you. You can ignore my other bit at the end, that was just my opinion.

 

[theblackwatch]

Remember it works both ways - there are plenty of railstaff who seem to be very 'anti passenger/customer'. And that applies on here too.

 

[O L Leigh]

Is that a personal opinion or are you speaking on behalf of the moderation team?

Frankly I'm not sure I've read very many anti-passenger comments posted by railstaff. It certainly seems that the anti-staff feeling outweighs it, as I've now lost count of the number of times I've been told ON THIS FORUM that I should consider myself lucky to have a well-paid job and should stop whinging because there's a queue of people halfway around the block who'd do my job for half the money. And that's in response to me trying to be helpful and constructive.

No, I'm afraid I don't buy this whole "it's a two-way street" answer. It's pathetic. It's the inaction of the moderation team that is fostering this atmosphere, and YOUR members are becoming alienated as a consequence.

*Waits to be banned*

O L Leigh

 

[tom1649]

Is that a personal opinion or are you speaking on behalf of the moderation team?

Only my opinion mate, I'm not even a moderator.

 

[O L Leigh]

I know. That comment was directed at theblackwatch, who is a moderator.

O L Leigh

 

[First class]

It is fairly ironic really - most of these people criticising the railway would jump at the chance of working for a TOC. I think some threads do have a touch of jealousy in them...

We enforce the rules that the DfT, ORR and ATOC decide, some of us follow the rules to the exact letter, others are more loose. Both are still doing their job correctly!

 

[yorkie]

O L Leigh, I don't know what posts you are unhappy with specifically, but according to my records you have reported 0 posts using the reporting system. If someone sees something that they feel may be inappropriate, rude, or break our rules, then the appropriate action is to report it so we can investigate. Of course that doesn't apply if it's just a case of differing opinion.

The post by theblackwatch above is his personal opinion.

I did try searching for the post where you were told to 'stop whinging' but could not find it. If you can report it, I'll investigate. If it's not reported we probably won't see it, as we can't read every post, and we do rely on posts being reported.

 

[tom1649]

I know. That comment was directed at theblackwatch, who is a moderator.

O L Leigh

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Tom.

 

[scotsman]

There's always someone who thinks they know more than you...and they don't like it when they're proved wrong

Then there's the "You clip tickets/Drive...what do you know?"

 

[Max]

I daresay it was a personal opinion. I just want to point out that we do not tolerate personal attacks of any kind. Any views about staff or anything else would have to be justified to be acceptable (in my view). Sadly, I have come across what I deem to be many bad staff on the railways. On the other hand, I have met many fantastic and helpful staff too. I think everybody is guilty of not praising the latter enough, which probably makes people look anti-staff when this isn't the case at all.

It is fairly ironic really - most of these people criticising the railway would jump at the chance of working for a TOC. I think some threads do have a touch of jealousy in them...

Perhaps some people feel they may be able to do a better job in some cases? The thought has occasionally crossed my mind (and I have applied and failed to get jobs with TOCs previously). This, of course, may not be true at all.

 

[Pumbaa]

There are plenty of anti-passenger comments from railstaff, your colleagues forget sometimes that they work in a service industry.

There are also true professionals on here, your input is valued (at least by non-frothers!) and your presence is very much appreciated. It is a 2 way street and you all seem to balance it well. If you do feel that not one iota is preserved before the next argument, I can only apologise on behalf of others who don't appreciate that.

And likewise it is not good practice for the mod team to blanket "trial by forum". It is a an electronic meeting hall of minds, I would object to heavier moderating of the driver reading paper thread for example, it would stifle open and honest debate.

In short, please don't go, we're not all against you and staff supporting other staff, well, I'd be surprised if you weren't! All industries breed families; the railway is no different.

 

[O L Leigh]

If I consider an infraction has happened I'd be more than happy to report it.

What annoys me is this constant barrage that is being directly towards myself and my colleagues. As I said above, I wear myself out almost daily trying to explain things. I object to the atmosphere of this forum.

O L Leigh

 

[313103]

Remember it works both ways - there are plenty of railstaff who seem to be very 'anti passenger/customer'. And that applies on here too.

Yes there maybe staff on here who couldnt give a rats about passenger/ customer, the thing is though we dont write it down and put it on this or any other forum.

Yet when a member of staff is caught doing something they shouldnt be doing or if someone on here thinks that a member of staff has done something wrong, or if a person on here feels they have been treated unfairly either by a member of staff or by a certain company it is open season, every little detail is put down.

Just think i have had at least 6 incidents in the last 3 days where passengers have done wrong yet you do not see me putting every single detail on this forum.

I completley understand where OL Leigh is coming, for a start OL Leigh is very maticulous when he makes a statement, on numerous occasions i have seen him go over and over the same thing. Hoever that often falls on death ears or OL Leigh gives up.

 

[O L Leigh]

Thanks 313103. I'm so frothing mad that I couldn't adequately explain it, but you've hit the nail on the head.

And it isn't just me that feels this way. There are other people who work on the railways similarly dismayed at this situation. Some have said so publicly and others privately, but there is a growing feeling among the railstaff here that we're constantly facing an uphill struggle.

O L Leigh

 

[yorkie]

Sadly, I have come across what I deem to be many bad staff on the railways. On the other hand, I have met many fantastic and helpful staff too.

Indeed. There are good people out there, and not so good people. Some are passengers, and some are staff!

Even staff can be anti-staff! Such as some staff at Sheffield station!

I know staff don't often get thanked but I do sometimes - where appropriate - try to thank staff for providing good service, and I did exactly that on the last train I travelled on! The previous day we got 4 bikes on a train that was officially only supposed to carry 3 bikes, and the next person was then declined travel (there were no reservations and we got there long before he did), he accepted it. The next person did not accept it and defied the guard. The guard removed the bike. The passenger then attempted to re-board after the bike was removed. But the doors closed on him and someone pushed the bike back. No, not the guard, but a passenger who was backing up the guard. The train was only delayed by around 30 seconds instead of several minutes as a result. A win for everyone!

 

[Flamingo]

I would broadly agree with what O L Leigh us saying.

Whilst forums like this are a two way street, and I don't claim to know everything (and will both ask questions and acknowledge if I am wrong in fact about any of my postings), there are a few posters on the board who appear to savour any opportunity to slag off staff.

I know that the moderators do jump on the worst excesses, but the constant drip drip drip from some can be wearing, as can their twisting any thread and posts to suit their own agendas.

I know it's 'tweb, and everybody has an opinion, but the constant shouting of the same "all rail staff are incompetent antisocial trogolydites and all TOC's are greedy rip-off merchants" can become a bit wearing.

Railway staff do not do the job 100% efficiently 100% of the time. Who does?

At this point, I don't know what is expected of us.

There have been posts on here over the past few days saying that we shouldn't stop for a breather ever! http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=749203&postcount=84

We are expected to be constantly alert, constantly "respectful" (whatever that means), enforcing rules without fear or favour, yet using "discretion" in every possible case.

However, passengers are never to be queried, let alone told what to do (like stay in a place of safety), and every ticket irregularity we come across is an honest mistake and should be overlooked.

The trains we work must always arrive early at their destinations (for the unofficial connections), but leave late (for the late-running passengers).

If someone produces a video camera and shoves it in our faces, we are supposed to smile, and show our good side, as with a little judicious editing it will be on News at Ten and going viral on YouTube showing us as jobsworth nazi's.

That only covers this weeks "Train staff must..." from the threads I have read.

I'm not saying that this is the wide view, or the view of the moderating team, but some posters on here come with a chip on their shoulder, and take every opportunity to express it.

To reverse the question from all those that say we don't do well enough - if you think it's that easy, give up whatever the day job is, and apply for the railway. Change it from the inside.

If you did and were told you were not accepted, I think that answers the question in itself.

 

[12CSVT]

O L Leigh has raised a valid point in my opinion.

Time and time again on these forums I have seen posts vilifying railway staff simply for doing their jobs, often when the poster doesn't know the full facts of the incident or alleged incident in question.

 

[185]

I think it's fair to say that on any internet forum, there will always be at least one troll who is unable to type something without starting an argument, contradicting people to try sound intelligent, or basically just be downright offensive.

Ignore em. Or, at least wind them up back.

 

[scotsman]

I am a member of a shipping forum which takes the policy of locking threads relating to incidents after the basic details of the incident have been posted. It is only unlocked (or further threads about the incident are permitted) only after the MAIB have produced their report. This is mainly to prevent the pages and pages of pointless speculation and accusation that this forum seems to specialise in.

Perhaps we could adopt this policy?

 

[theblackwatch]

No, I'm afraid I don't buy this whole "it's a two-way street" answer. It's pathetic. It's the inaction of the moderation team that is fostering this atmosphere, and YOUR members are becoming alienated as a consequence.

Whilst you may want a forum where members never complain about railway staff, that isn't going to happen - you may want a one way street but that is not what a forum is about and we need to try and strike a balance with things (see below).

Yes there maybe staff on here who couldnt give a rats about passenger/ customer, the thing is though we dont write it down and put it on this or any other forum.

There have been plenty of 'anti passenger/customer' posts from rail staff here over the years.

What we don't want to see here is anyone getting abusive towards each other (passengers>staff or staff>passengers) - if anyone considers this to be the case, please report it. We don't want to stifle healthy two-way debate though - at the end of the day, that's what forums are here for.

 

[455driver]

How many threads have posts berating staff compared to ones berating passengers?

That is what O L LEIGH is on about!

 

[scotsman]

Whilst you may want a forum where members never complain about railway staff, that isn't going to happen - you may want a one way street but that is not what a forum is about.

Yes, debate is good. But half the stuff people spout is not even constructive, there's nothing to build on - it's straight criticism. Where's the value in that? It doesn't encourage debate, it just causes an argument where one side exhausts themselves with detailed inside knowledge while the other party refuses to accept it without offering any evidence of quality to the contrary.

 

[Flamingo]

There are plenty of anti-passenger comments from railstaff, your colleagues forget sometimes that they work in a service industry.

How many trains do you get a day? Two? Three? Four? (assuming two trains each way to work).

You will therefore come in direct contact with four guards (assuming no DOO), maybe a couple of catering staff (depending on line), worst case scenario two ticket office staff, two/four barrier staff, a few platform staff, and (if there is a blue moon) an ATE/RPI.

Most of these interactions will (for the average person) not be any longer than it takes to make eye contact (if even). It's a bit hard (or you have to be particularly sensitive) to say that they even have a chance to be rude to you.

I work two or three trains a day. I will probably ask between 400-1000 people for their tickets. Some of them will not have any ticket, or their ticket will be invalid through no fault of mine. However, the majority who have got an incorrect ticket will try to make out it is either mine, or my employers fault. They will get aggressive and abusive in a large number of cases.

A significant minority of them will write in, complaining that I was rude to them (refused to accept their story), and / or bullied them (told them their journey was not going to continue until they purchased a new ticket).

This does not include the passengers who insist on taking out their frustrations on me because something outside my control has gone wrong and then turn to the passenger beside them and say (I kid you not) "It's OK, these guys are used to it".

If posting details of interactions with these flowers of modern society comes across as "anti-passenger", then I must be. Regardless of the people who I look up timings for when I'm supposed to be doing something that will now have to be done in my break, arrange assistance for, carry bags on/off trains for (and NO, that is NOT my job before anybody says), allow to use my mobile because they have a flat battery, give comp refreshments to as they are broke, or even give a lift home to as I'm heading that way myself and I am working the last train which has left them anything up to 60 miles short of their destination as they could not catch the correct train.

As I said, I deal with hundreds of people every day. Guess which ones I remember when I'm trying to sleep. And it's not the ones that hand over the correct ticket, say "thank you" and go back to reading their book. (Although they are my favourites!)

 

[deltic1989]

Unfortunately working in a service industry you may find yourself acting as cannon fodder for dissatified customers, in saying that I'm in no way agreeing with the anti rail staff brigade that's just merely an observation. Some people see this forum as a place to vent their spleens at their train being delayed or cancelled and blaming what in thier opinion are mere lever pullers. However what they don't realise is that without people such as yourself Mr Leigh the UK would grind to a halt you and your collegues provide a valuabe service. As for the forum I for one find that when I read one of your or another driver or member of staffs posts I find myself much more informed, the staff that fequent our online community I'm sure most will agree are valued members. I hope to learn more from you and your collegues in the future. All the best sir.

 

[andythompson]

i don't know any of you. nor do i know what the reasons are for this anger to be brought forward like this ( im usually the one shouting and blinding) but id like to thank all rail staff for being there doing there jobs, because at the end of the day where would our familys be? when the bus services are messed up and other means of transport are never there when needed. For me the trains have very rarely let us down. And you never see any member of a train company whether it be a platform unpayed ambassador to a train driver himself tell you that their not bothered if you have something decent to ask. At the end of the day their mums,dads, husbands,wifes & so on. making a living and trying to enjoy it at the same time. giving them attitude behind yor computer screen is sily and more often than not - not needed.

Thanks, and also to the originator of the posts - many members i have seen on other forums do the same to me individually but jst because im northern and bite back. forget the ones who wind you up for their own kicks..


Ben/Andy

 

[sunday]

It works both ways, there are times where certain posters use the fact they are rail staff to justify an argument when it is actually irrelevant. There is, at times, an attitude of "well I work in this situation so my opinion is correct and yours is irrelevant" which serves only to stifle debate. This forum, to my mind, serves for discussion of the rail network so it is only natural that there will be conflicting views between passengers and staff. What I object to is staff expecting that as they work for a TOC their view should be held above all others, that does not lead to sensible debate.

I have the utmost respect for rail staff and the work that they do. I appreciate that it isn't easy and that there is a lot of hassle involved with the job, but that goes for any job. I have noticed a disturbing trend of throwing red herrings out to derail debate on any topic and to gain sympathy for certain viewpoints. There are, I'm sure you will agree, staff on this board who close rank and take the staff viewpoint no matter what the topic at hand. The same applies to certain posters who do the same with the passenger viewpoint, but it does get tedious having to argue against the "well I am a member of staff so I am correct" mentality and I personally find it puts me off joining debate.

 

[O L Leigh]

Whilst you may want a forum where members never complain about railway staff, that isn't going to happen - you may want a one way street but that is not what a forum is about.

I don't believe I asked for that. My complaint has already been spelt out above and expanded upon by others.

But I was singularly unimpressed with your first reply. Saying it cuts both ways isn't an answer, primarily because it doesn't cut both ways as both 313103 and Flamingo point out, but also because it refuses to acknowledge the growing level of dissatisfaction.

O L Leigh