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Railway: Safety Critical Comms

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Allanw

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I got asked this question the other day: If the person you are communicating with is not using correct protocols what action should you take?

I'm the kind of guy who likes to see the exact answer in black and white in the rule book. Can anyone direct me to where it states the protocol which must be followed?
 
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Johncleesefan

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Hmmm. I believe the correct answer is to then maintain your professionalism and not allow yourself to drop the standard. Always ensure a clear understanding is met by the end of the conversation no matter how long it takes. Don't know where that is written in the rule book though. G1 I would hazard a guess?
 

Sprinter153

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Section 5 of Rule Book module G1 details communication protocol.

There is no specific guidance on what action to take if the person you are communicating with does not follow the standard, but as above, I would maintain professionalism. If something isn't clear ensure you ask the person to 'repeat back' and clarify anything that you have any doubt at all about.
 

theageofthetra

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I got asked this question the other day: If the person you are communicating with is not using correct protocols what action should you take?

I'm the kind of guy who likes to see the exact answer in black and white in the rule book. Can anyone direct me to where it states the protocol which must be followed?


Stay professional and ask them to repeat, if you still can't understand them then ask to speak to a supervisor. Then fully report the incident to your manager with dates/times.
 

driver9000

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You can always ask them to use correct communication protocol. Network Rail regularly pull voice tapes at random to ensure recorded conversations are being done properly and feedback given to those identified in the call. Maintain correct protocol and often the other person will eventually fall into line with it but as others have stated come to a clear understanding and use repeat back as often as necessary.
 

ComUtoR

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I'm the kind of guy who likes to see the exact answer in black and white in the rule book. Can anyone direct me to where it states the protocol which must be followed?

The problem is that it states what protocol to use and not 'what to do if' a lot of what we do it about application of the rules to your situation/scenario. You will often find yourself in a situation where two people are applying the rules differently and where company policy/procedures will take a different approach too.

Since the 'new approach' started the rule book has got a little thinner and is acting more as a foundation and fallback. A Little bit of common and a whole lot of non technicals will help you going forward.
 

theageofthetra

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The bottom line is if you can't come to clear understanding then do not assume anything. The amount of incidents in safety critical jobs (some fatal) which come from the simplest comms misunderstanding is staggering.

Don't take the risk.
 

Peter KS

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I work in another industry which also use Safety Critical Communication procedures and I am very interested in this subject. I would like to ask if non-compliance with the procedures is much of a problem on the Railways. If there are any problems, is it getting better over time. Which department would be responsible for monitoring the tapes and taking any action in the case of non-compliance? Thank you
 

Bromley boy

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I work in another industry which also use Safety Critical Communication procedures and I am very interested in this subject. I would like to ask if non-compliance with the procedures is much of a problem on the Railways. If there are any problems, is it getting better over time. Which department would be responsible for monitoring the tapes and taking any action in the case of non-compliance? Thank you

Generally the key thing is always to reach a clear understanding, sometimes easier said that done.

Personally I've found the hardest area is when I'm asked to do a shunt move in a depot I'm unfamiliar with, or one I haven't done for ages. Shunters tend to be quite "brusque" communicators and are used to authorising the same moves over and over and assume the driver they are speaking to knows them backwards (as most will). It's very easy for "drop down and wait for the dummy" to be misconstrued. A spad in a depot is every bit as serious as a spad on the mainline.

I'm reasonably robust about insisting on clarification but it can be tough, especially as a new driver. I'm aware of two SPADs and a collision that have occurred on my patch recently, all as a result of these kinds of miscommunications.

I've not been doing the job long enough to comment on whether it's getting better or worse.
 
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Lockwood

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Generally the key thing is always to reach a clear understanding, sometimes easier said that done.

I've had to do (road) vehicle movements at work in temporary compounds or fairly busy environments. These will invariably have people parked at silly angles, people lurking behind vehicles and ready to step out, or people standing in the middle of the compound right where you need to go. I always ask exactly where I need to go if it is not painfully obvious ("over there" is not that helpful at times) and will give a detail of the proposed turns that I will do to execute the move. "I'm going to park between the fence and that vehicle. I'll swing her forwards, stick her nose in that gap next to the generator and reverse in."

This usually ends up with a response of "Just leave it there, whatever.", "If you can't park there yourself, I'll do it" or a load of people swarming around blocking the path with coffee and someone else driving next to me making it impossible to carry out the planned move.


Tangentially related, but it felt good venting some of that.
 

High Dyke

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As others have said it is about reaching a clear understanding between both parties. I've attended some of the Comms Reviews Group meetings held between Network Rail and TOC's. The scores are marked according to a criteria laid down in a Group Standard. Depending on the scores achieved by a caller(s) they can find themselves having a meeting with their manager and a performance action plan introduced.

The main thing is to remain professional throughout. A couple of note I have heard were the caller has brought the recipient down to their level - a full blown argument between a driver and a signalman. Another example was a signaller that made his conversation something more akin to listening to the Jimmy Young radio show - younger readers may need to ask someone about Jimmy Young, or search the internet.

That said the Comms Review Group isn't there to be used as a stick to beat staff. There can be some good examples of spot-on comms. However many incidents occur through poor communication protocols. Part of the problem these days, in my opinion, has been the introduction of GSM-R. It can be difficult to ascertain when a caller classes it as a radio call, using the appropriate voice protocols, or the call is a telephone call that doesn't require the same radio protocols.
 

daikilo

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As others have said it is about reaching a clear understanding between both parties. I've attended some of the Comms Reviews Group meetings held between Network Rail and TOC's. The scores are marked according to a criteria laid down in a Group Standard. Depending on the scores achieved by a caller(s) they can find themselves having a meeting with their manager and a performance action plan introduced.

[...]However many incidents occur through poor communication protocols. Part of the problem these days, in my opinion, has been the introduction of GSM-R. It can be difficult to ascertain when a caller classes it as a radio call, using the appropriate voice protocols, or the call is a telephone call that doesn't require the same radio protocols.

I have difficulty believing that there are really two sets of voice protocols depending on whether the call is classic telephone, radio or GSM-R. If there are then it should be corrected and aligned on one set of protocols.
 

Bromley boy

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I have difficulty believing that there are really two sets of voice protocols depending on whether the call is classic telephone, radio or GSM-R. If there are then it should be corrected and aligned on one set of protocols.

No, I don't think there are two sets of protocol - and why should there be? The protocols are to ensure a clear understanding and have absolutely nothing to do with the communication medium.

If I'm being talked passed a signal at danger on an spt rather than GSMR the call would be exactly the same - the signaller and I need to come to a clear understanding about the same information (which signaller he is, which train I am, which signal I'm to pass, to obey all other signals beyond which point etc.)
 

theageofthetra

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Generally the key thing is always to reach a clear understanding, sometimes easier said that done.

Personally I've found the hardest area is when I'm asked to do a shunt move in a depot I'm unfamiliar with, or one I haven't done for ages. Shunters tend to be quite "brusque" communicators and are used to authorising the same moves over and over and assume the driver they are speaking to knows them backwards (as most will). It's very easy for "drop down and wait for the dummy" to be misconstrued. A spad in a depot is every bit as serious as a spad on the mainline.

I'm reasonably robust about insisting on clarification but it can be tough, especially as a new driver. I'm aware of two SPADs and a collision that have occurred on my patch recently, all as a result of these kinds of miscommunications.

I've not been doing the job long enough to comment on whether it's getting better or worse.

I completely agree. Don't ever be put under pressure to do something you are not 100% in understanding by an old hand just because you are new. If they are decent they will understand and the vast majority will help you.
 

Bromley boy

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I completely agree. Don't ever be put under pressure to do something you are not 100% in understanding by an old hand just because you are new. If they are decent they will understand and the vast majority will help you.

Yes that's very true, most people are helpful, the key thing is standing up to those who aren't!

I know a couple of people who have had to learn that lesson the hard way, sadly.
 
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