Railway Staff - Historic arrangements for cash wages

[Roger1973]

Set off by a discussion (elsewhere) on a bus forum, about the times when bus crews were paid weekly wages in cash, and how there tended to be a 'market' set up in the garage / depot office on pay day each week, wives (sometimes with children in tow) accompanying their husbands so they could get the 'housekeeping' and go and do the weekend shopping and pay the rent and so on, and some odd arrangements for staff based remotely...

This got me wondering (out of curiosity) how it worked on the railways when 'wages' (rather than 'salaried') grades were mostly paid weekly in cash. I can't remember seeing any mention of it in railwaymens' memoirs.

Presume it was relatively easy at the larger train crew depots and passenger stations / goods depots, but how was it done at the smallest stations? At one time all but the smallest stations would have had a ticket office handling cash, but not sure if the booking clerk/s would have been expected to sort out wage packets.

In practical terms, the biggest challenge might have been signalmen / crossing keepers at the more remote signalboxes and crossings (I'm thinking particularly the ones out in the wilds between stations.) Did the signalmen have to go to the nearest station on pay day? Or did a supervisor or someone from the wages office have to travel up and down the line handing out pay packets? (and then, even if they visited every signalbox, unless they managed to be there at a shift change time, they would only see one of the three signalmen based at that box (and one might have been on rest day being covered by a relief-man.)

 

[Gloster]

I think it varied over the years for signalmen, etc. The wages would be made up by either the clerk or the stationmaster, or later a clerk at the main station in the are. The sealed packets could then be taken out to smaller stations, where staff would come in and collect them, or in a signal box just left in the booking desk (though probably only in one that would be open continuously until after everybody had collected their packets). If a number of packets were sent out on a train, there would be some sort of person-to-person check so they didn’t get forgotten.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In my days as a bobby it was a case of calling in at the ticket office window on the day concerned, having to pass through the station en route to/from the box, although at an earlier location I was at it was a recessed window (not part of any ticket office, so presumably a designated pay office) in the wall of the main public station subway......beggars belief these days thinking back, but back then crime, and I guess trust (amongst people in general) were in a different world to what we have today. Suffice to say said window was still there when I moved on, but has now long gone.

It's an interesting one about remote boxes I admit. Bearing in mind, in my time anyway, we all had our own paycards with every pay day (date) printed in a box. We had to present same to the the paying officer/office, who would then duly scribble their signature in the box concerned, so in other words each signaller had to present their own pay cards (I presume) to receive THEIR own wages in person. Still have my cards....

 

[Trestrol]

It was quite complicated. At the start of my railway career on the BR YTS I helped make wages up for S&T staff. As far as I can remember it went something like this. Firstly you need to remember that you were being paid for for the previous weeks work. Once finance had input all the time sheets a payment report was produced for each member of staff. This was passed to the District Admin office who if I remember correctly, worked out what quantity of denominations of money were needed to be ordered from the bank. This is not as easy as it sounds. This was delivered by security cash van to the secure pay office. Once the cash was delivered the Admin staff had to drop everything to make up pay packets. Paper money had to be folded in a certain way so every note could be seen through the pay envelope clear window. This also included the copy of the payslip, also all coins had to be visible. Payday was Thursday afternoon and each member of staffhad to bring their clocking in ticket and staff ID card to prove who they were. This was really imiterial as all the Admin staff new everyone anyway. The staff signed for their paypackets. This was the late 1980's, by around 1990 they were moving everyone onto four weekly pay into a bank. Hope this helps.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Paper money had to be folded in a certain way so every note could be seen through the pay envelope clear window. This also included the copy of the payslip, also all coins had to be visible. Payday was Thursday afternoon and each member of staffhad to bring their clocking in ticket and staff ID card to prove who they were

Yes, how strange, it starts to come back to one how things were! Still have some of my early payslips as well (I have an interest in history etc) from the mid 70's. Let's think for a moment - a weeks money in those days (for me), would likely buy me in London and SE today, may be four pints of ale at the very most, may be less in 'The City' today....

 

[Dr Hoo]

I could tell many stories about the 'pay run' on Thursdays. It was an absolute nightmare because it typically involved an operations supervisor/manager driving round in a BR yellow van with the pay clerk (i.e. not solo) to remote locations such as outstations, signal boxes and level crossings. The problem was that you could bet that that was the time for a derailment, need to institute single line working, etc.

Obviously such runs became known to the criminal fraternity and I was aware of a couple of armed hold-ups in Kent while I was working there; albeit not on my own runs, thank goodness.

If staff were amenable to short cuts it was possible to do things like putting pay envelopes behind a wagon clip and then relying on the relevant signaller or crossing keeper to stop 'their' freight trip, retrieve their packet and then signal the train on its way. Obviously this was only feasible on quiet lines.

Staff off long term sick would have their pay packet dropped off and signed for at their home if they lived nearby.

The advent of 100% cashless pay was a massive step forward in efficiency and security.

Paper money had to be folded in a certain way so every note could be seen through the pay envelope clear window.

Ah, yes! A lot of places would put a staple through the envelope and notes to keep them in place.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Paying out at main M&EE depots in the KX division was done at depot, always at a window which was two locked doors away from everyone else.

The big blue timesheets were collected from the supervisors at the end of the week, the calculated (work output) bonus, together with any other adjustment added to them by the clerks in the pay office and then they would go in a blue plastic despatch bag to the Data Input Centre (Langley House, Stevenage, iirc) for processing.

The payslips would arrive by despatch bag the following week and the chief clerk would then order the money, which would arrive in a Securicor van and be put into the payslips by the pay clerks.

In my time, Finsbury Park didn’t get “done” but at Bounds Green the thieves got in (twice) via the roof and took the cash. They were less successful at Hornsey EMU on a “walk in” raid but they blasted the outer door before abandoning the blag and running away.

When I started at KX West Side, the pay office for the Drivers and Maintenance Staff was right outside the office I worked in. An old Top Shed Clerk did the pay out and knew who was meant to pick up the payslip so if the wife, sister or mother hadn’t appeared in time to “assist” the member of staff to collect the pay, an excuse was made until they appeared. Making a quick phone call could also be made to get them there pronto! There were a number of staff who would spend the lot that day if they weren’t accompanied.

Payout started on Thursday morning and there would always be a queue waiting for the pay window to open. Several staff had to take their pay packet home unopened and when the glue wasn’t too good on the pay packet it wasn’t unknown for a member of staff to ask for a letter saying that, so they wouldn’t be in trouble when they got home.

The most bizarre incident I saw was at KX when, due to redecorating, the Guards (who had a separate pay point at KX) had to be paid out at “our” pay point. There was nearly an instant walk out by the Drivers and the Depot Manager had to do a fair bit of pacifying with the LDC.

 

[Springs Branch]

I could tell many stories about the 'pay run' on Thursdays. It was an absolute nightmare because it typically involved an operations supervisor/manager driving round in a BR yellow van with the pay clerk (i.e. not solo) to remote locations such as outstations, signal boxes and level crossings.

I remember reading somewhere (possibly in Modern Railways but can't recall) a couple of paragraphs reporting the end to the practice of paying cash wages on BR (or was it Railtrack by then?)

The report said most staff had already gone over to direct bank transfers of wages, apart from a handful who still insisted on being paid cash in a pay packet. Allegedly, at the very end, this could involve a Securicor-type van being dispatched some significant distance to deliver one bloke's pay packet - possibly ending up bouncing down a remote dirt track at the end of its journey. I always had a vision of Blea Moor in mind - but no evidence that staff at this box were in the doggedly persistent category.


In the late 1970s a friend got a job as a junior accounts clerk in the NHS admin offices in one of the northern mill towns - not BR, I know, but a nationalised organisation with a large, weekly-waged payroll at the time. The pay day procedures sounded very similar - a large amount of cash was ordered from the bank, then collected in person by a senior clerk. Because this was a woman, my mate was assigned to accompany her to the bank "for security" - a skinny 18-year-old lad who couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding. The NHS offices and the bank were both in the town centre, so only across the street and down a bit, but still!

Apparently once the cash was safely back in the office, it was all hands to the pump by the accounts staff making up weekly pay packets for the local NHS staff. This was done in a 'locked office' - which probably meant a yale lock on a flimsy wooden door with a glass window. Never heard of them getting robbed, however.

 

[Ashley Hill]

We had a wages box for our station that arrived on the same train every Thursday which was chained up in the guards van. You would unlock it take out the wages and sign for them,lock the box up and send the train away. The wages were then taken to the booking office where there would be a steady stream of PW,S&T and signalmen queuing with their pay cards amongst the passengers.
As an aside there was also a travelling safe,again padlocked in the guards van on a nominated train. It had a flap on top into which the previous days takings were put. I don’t recall seeing it after about 1988.
Later after promotion to a larger station pay was collected by all grades from the pay window attached the the cash office.

 

[DerekC]

Apparently once the cash was safely back in the office, it was all hands to the pump by the accounts staff making up weekly pay packets for the local NHS staff. This was done in a 'locked office' - which probably meant a yale lock on a flimsy wooden door with a glass window. Never heard of them getting robbed, however.

Reminds me of an event (before my railway conversion) at the Thames Barrier site in the early 80s, where I was working as an engineer on the installation and commissioning of the gates and machinery. I was just getting off a boat from one of the piers and walking up the gangway towards the top of the river wall when I heard a couple of bangs - didn't think much about it. Bangs are pretty frequent on construction sites. However, walking towards the site office a car went screaming up the road with two guys in it. When I got to the office a minute or so later there was a lot of smoke and the office staff were in a state of shock. Turns out they were doing exactly what you describe - making up the wage packets in an office with a flimsy door with a glass window. Two guys had arrived in true gangster style, skidded to a halt and leapt out waving sawn off shotguns. The two ladies making up the wage packets saw them coming, lay down on the floor behind desks and very bravely refused to open up. Next step was to shoot the window in and the lock off, but they missed the lock! By then there was so much screaming and shouting that they panicked and fled. They were obviously incompetent but I confess to being glad I hadn't got back a couple of minutes earlier. How they got in and out again past the site gate says a lot about the level of security in those days.

 

[Acey]

Nothing really to do with wages but when I first started as a Guard at BR SE we used to pick up all the booking office takings from Hayes, up to and including Ladywell Stations and drop them off at London Bridge,they were small leather bags with a padlock attached,we were usually given them after nine o clock( often on different trains for security ) no idea how much we had by the time we reached London Bridge ,tidy sum I reckon !

 

[Ken H]

I know some bus companies turned a blind eye to conductors getting a sub by taking money from their cash bag. They would under-pay in at shift end, and the sub would be deducted from wages.
I suppose it reduced cash handling.
Did this sort of thing go on by cash handling rail staff?

 

[Trestrol]

Padlocks! BR were splashing out there. One of my other YTS placements was at a manned station. Cash was moved to other booking offices in the same small leather cash bags. These though were tied with string and sealed with sealing wax.

 

[StephenHunter]

I believe the Slade Green kiosk is still there?

 

[Clarence Yard]

I know some bus companies turned a blind eye to conductors getting a sub by taking money from their cash bag. They would under-pay in at shift end, and the sub would be deducted from wages.
I suppose it reduced cash handling.
Did this sort of thing go on by cash handling rail staff?

No, BR got very serious with staff about any cash shortages. Anybody turning a blind eye was likely to be in as much trouble as those who were on the take.

I remember one Traffic Assistant who got busted down to a Clerical Officer when he didn’t spot one of his booking office clerks was on the take. It was a lot of money, iirc, and the clerk actually went to jail. Usually it was just a sacking or you were “invited” to resign.

 

[StephenHunter]

CIWL management seem to have been fine with their staff engaging in low-level smuggling to supplement their income.

 

[AVK17]

CIWL management seem to have been fine with their staff engaging in low-level smuggling to supplement their income.

CIWL?

 

[Springs Branch]

CIWL?

Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits - historic operator of European luxury sleeper trains like the (original) Orient Express.

 

[StephenHunter]

Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits - historic operator of European luxury sleeper trains like the (original) Orient Express.

Also cornered much of the train on-board marketing in Europe.

They're still continuing as a staff provider for Nightjet and SNCF catering under the name Newrest Wagons-Lit. In any case, plenty of opportunity to cook the proverbial books.

 

[P Binnersley]

From the Severn Valley Railway Wiki site:

South of Alveley Colliery, the line southwards through Bewdley remained in use for moving coal to Stourport Power Station until the Colliery closed, with the last coal lifted on 31 January 1969. For a short period following closure of the line from 6 February a class 25 diesel loco was rostered to take an 8T91 Thursday afternoons only light engine move from Kidderminster to Highley to carry the wage packets of the signalman and the shunter who were still stationed there, despite traffic having finished. A third man, a lengths man, was also stationed there but he had to travel on a platelayers trolley each week to Bewdley to collect his wages.

 

[Gloster]

I believe that when there was still a 350 h.p. shunter stabled at Radstock, together with a driver, secondman and guard, every Thursday it ran into Westbury to collect their pay. It was also changed over, though this was reportedly not the purpose.

 

[CW2]

I started full time on the railways as a booking office clerk in 1980, based at various stations on the GN Inner Suburban network.
We had to deposit the cash takings at the local bank every day, along with all the various paperwork.
Every Wednesday we held back some "cash in hand" to give us a good start for the wages. The wage slips would arrive Thursday morning, and we would have to make up and check the individual pay packets, ready for the staff to pick up their pay on Thursday afternoon.
Each member of staff would be obliged to examine their pay packet and check the amount it contained was correct, as no mistakes would be rectified once they had left the pay counter.
You can imagine that Thursdays were a real pain for the booking office staff.

 

[Magdalia]

Reminds me of an event (before my railway conversion) at the Thames Barrier site in the early 80s, where I was working as an engineer on the installation and commissioning of the gates and machinery. I was just getting off a boat from one of the piers and walking up the gangway towards the top of the river wall when I heard a couple of bangs - didn't think much about it. Bangs are pretty frequent on construction sites. However, walking towards the site office a car went screaming up the road with two guys in it. When I got to the office a minute or so later there was a lot of smoke and the office staff were in a state of shock. Turns out they were doing exactly what you describe - making up the wage packets in an office with a flimsy door with a glass window. Two guys had arrived in true gangster style, skidded to a halt and leapt out waving sawn off shotguns. The two ladies making up the wage packets saw them coming, lay down on the floor behind desks and very bravely refused to open up. Next step was to shoot the window in and the lock off, but they missed the lock! By then there was so much screaming and shouting that they panicked and fled. They were obviously incompetent but I confess to being glad I hadn't got back a couple of minutes earlier. How they got in and out again past the site gate says a lot about the level of security in those days.

James Kennedy was posthumously awarded the George Cross after being killed during an attempted payroll robbery at BREL's Glasgow Works in 1973. He is the most recent railway recipient of the George Cross.

 

[Taunton]

Wonderful description in the USA Trains magazine about pay procedures there around 1900. The railroad sent out a special Pay Car, attached to a regular passenger service, once a week (sometimes fortnight). Locked inside was the pay clerk, who had all the payslips prepared and paid out through a small window. Alongside the window was a railway Special Agent (alias railway police), fully armed at both hips in best USA Wild West tradition, in case of a "heist". The workers all queued up at the window of the car and were paid, generally with a stack of silver dollar coins.

The depot chief agent then kept order of a loose group which were not allowed within a radius of about 30 feet. These comprised firstly wives, keen to get the money before it was squandered in gambling or at the saloon, and also town moneylenders, looking to get repayment on the spot. There would be some paid out who would glance slyly around, and then do a runner sideways, pursued by their wife, children in tow, one or more moneylenders, and sundry others joining in the chase.

 

[robert thomas]

Neath loco shed (87A)which was about 1.5 miles from Neath General station used to send a light engine to collect a strong box from Neath General containing the wages. I believe this was the last recorded working for 51218 before it was withdrawn and secured for preservation.

 

[Taunton]

When I ran a project site office long ago, cash pay was made up at HQ and the packets delivered by Securicor. Even in the 1970s the guys were netting over £200 a week, occasionally there was a tax refund in four figures, and when we paid off periodically there were a large number of very substantial packets. There was a considerable reluctance to being paid straight into the bank, which I pioneered, and as many were working well away from home various arrangements to get money back there, sometimes a disappointingly small proportion of the total. We didn't like the security of this at all, as soon as it was delivered, which correctly arrived at random times in the day, I got work stopped and paid it out. Eventually I got Securicor to provide an armoured Transit van with a pay window, where the guys were paid directly from the van so it never came into the office.

Pay was rounded off to the next £1 above, a note then, on a cumulative basis to avoid having coins. Despite me explaining this on multiple occasions to some of the labourers, who were separately mathematical masters in shouting out when someone needed say 54 to finish a darts match in the pub "treble 12 double 9", there were some who continued to have blank looks by the end.

 

[Dave W]

I'll add to the "non-railway but similar" - when I started at HMRC I was advised by an old Custom and Excise hand that he used to go in his car - accompanied - from the building in question to Customs House on the Thames to collect the cash pay packets, well into the 90s.

I've only been paid cash in hand for one job - I used to prepare the spuds for my local chippy and got 3 quid per 1 hour shift! - I must say the idea of getting my current wage in cash form is slightly terrifying! But some superb tales in here, so thanks to everyone for sharing.

 

[Falcon1200]

The first two years of my railway career, 1978-80, were at Harlow Town on the Eastern Region. The only cash wages we made up and paid out were for the local PW gang, I still recall this group of wizened, weather beaten men coming in each Thursday for their money. I also recall that I, as a 19-year old trainee Clerical Officer, earned more than they did, such was the divide between wages and salaried staff on BR.

 

[D6130]

I was still paid in cash as a grade 3 clerical officer in the Scottish Region train planning office well into the early 1980s. As stated upthread, the wages were rounded up - or occasionally down, if it was a matter of a few pence - to the nearest Pound and adjustments were made the following week. I recall one particular pay day in about 1979/80 when the wage on my payslip came to £99.97 and I opened my envelope to find a shiny red Scottish £100 note inside! After making a - probably illegal - colour photocopy of each side for posterity, I reluctantly had to take it to the bank in my lunch hour to get it changed. I don't think I've ever seen one since then!

 

[Western 52]

The GWR and WR had travelling safes which were used to carry cash on trains. Were these used for moving cash for pay packets?