Realtime Trains: Operational Information

[AverageTD]

I now often use realtime trains as a way to check live departures with more info than just looking on network rail and I sometimes use it to get more detail for services. When you look under operational info it sometimes shows a class or family of train, eg, sprinter or pacer. Yet when the train turns up it sometimes isn't what it says on RTT. This could be because it says it is "pathed as" a certain train and is not confirmed. In about a month I am doing London to Glasgow QS via Edinburgh and the ScotRail connection says it is a Class 158 yet other video evidence shows that Queen Street - Falkirk High - Waverly is commonly done by 170s. Is there anyway of being 100% sure what class of train you will travel on. (I know one month is a lot in advance but once in Newcastle I was expecting a Pacer as it said on RTT about 30mins earlier but a 156 shows up instead). Any help is appreciated.

 

[takno]

Very roughly, the type of train listed there is the slowest or least powerful that might be run on the service, so you definitely shouldn't depend on it if you are trying to get a specific class of haulage. In the case of Edinburgh - Queen Street I haven't seen a 158 on that in years, although I guess there may still be some running to allow positioning moves etc.

 

[AverageTD]

Very roughly, the type of train listed there is the slowest or least powerful that might be run on the service, so you definitely shouldn't depend on it if you are trying to get a specific class of haulage. In the case of Edinburgh - Queen Street I haven't seen a 158 on that in years, although I guess there may still be some running to allow positioning moves etc.

Guess that makes a lot of sense, so it basically rules out anything less powerful that could be used on that route

 

[samuelmorris]

As an aside to this, often if the intended stock is a 170 you will find that RTT reads 'Class 158' yet the speed is shown at 100mph - a giveaway since 158s of course won't reach that speed.

 

[takno]

As an aside to this, often if the intended stock is a 170 you will find that RTT reads 'Class 158' yet the speed is shown at 100mph - a giveaway since 158s of course won't reach that speed.

Oh, good point. The data feed doesn't actually give a class for DMUs. The categories are:
69 Class 172/0, 172/1 or 172/2
A Class 141 to 144
E Class 158, 168, 170 or 175
N Class 165/0
S Class 150, 153, 155 or 156
T Class 165/1 or 166
V Class 220 or 221
X Class 159
I think RTT lists all category E trains as 158s

 

[Roast Veg]

There's a comprehensive list of all timings on the network rail open data wiki here:
http://nrodwiki.rockshore.net/index.php/Reference_Data#Train_Planning_Data
https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php/Reference_Data#Train_Planning_Data

It's a tough document to sift through by hand though.

 

[PHILIPE]

Once again have to point out the class quoted is for what the train is timed as and not what is always diagrammed. If a train is shown on the Timing load as 158, it means that it must be able to run at the max 158 speed, i.e. 90mph.

 

[The Planner]

Its more than that, it should be able to match the timed traction in all aspects, no good being 90mph capable if it doesnt match its acceleration and braking.

 

[DarloRich]

I now often use realtime trains as a way to check live departures with more info than just looking on network rail and I sometimes use it to get more detail for services. When you look under operational info it sometimes shows a class or family of train, eg, sprinter or pacer. Yet when the train turns up it sometimes isn't what it says on RTT. This could be because it says it is "pathed as" a certain train and is not confirmed. In about a month I am doing London to Glasgow QS via Edinburgh and the ScotRail connection says it is a Class 158 yet other video evidence shows that Queen Street - Falkirk High - Waverly is commonly done by 170s. Is there anyway of being 100% sure what class of train you will travel on. (I know one month is a lot in advance but once in Newcastle I was expecting a Pacer as it said on RTT about 30mins earlier but a 156 shows up instead). Any help is appreciated.

You are reading to much into things. The "timing load" is simply assumptions, about train performance, programmed into the timetabling system to produce the timetable.

As the Planner says ( I would listen to him) it indicates that the timetable has been built on the assumption that a train capable of matching the performance characteristics of a class 158 will operate the service in order to, all being well, meet the assigned timetable. It isn't any indicator of the assigned class of train.

 

[87015]

Its more than that, it should be able to match the timed traction in all aspects, no good being 90mph capable if it doesnt match its acceleration and braking.

Certainly from a TOC view it's technically not linked to the diagram at all. Particuarly STP where there are less robust checks, the relevant planner is more than able to time as a timing load (which is what RTT sees) that is absolutely no match to any of the operators stock.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, not as prevalent now, but sticking in a change en route if a bunch of SRTs were missing to fudge the schedule happened on many occasions, especially with freight.

 

[Mordac]

You are reading to much into things. The "timing load" is simply assumptions, about train performance, programmed into the timetabling system to produce the timetable.

As the Planner says ( I would listen to him) it indicates that the timetable has been built on the assumption that a train capable of matching the performance characteristics of a class 158 will operate the service in order to, all being well, meet the assigned timetable. It isn't any indicator of the assigned class of train.

However, depending on the TOC, it may be used to ID the assigned class of train. For instance, on VTWC, you can work out whether it's a Voyager or a Pendo from the timing load, assuming no last minute subs, of course.

 

[DarloRich]

However, depending on the TOC, it may be used to ID the assigned class of train. For instance, on VTWC, you can work out whether it's a Voyager or a Pendo from the timing load, assuming no last minute subs, of course.

It may suggest what will turn up ( and, in the case of Virgin, it is fairly accurate) but not certain.

 

[Highlandspring]

When inputting VSTP schedules using the Integrale software *any* valid timing load can be selected and often the timing load has to be changed a few times throughout the course of the schedule depending on the timing links required. This means I could input a service worked by a Pendolino as a 75mph Sprinter and Real Time Trains would show it as the latter.

As a Controller who inputs multiple VSTP schedules every shift I find Integrale very temperamental and sometimes it can be very difficult to get it to accept an appropriate timing load. I can only assume (hope?) the TPS software used by the real train planning department is somewhat better.

 

[London Trains]

never trust RTT with train types, a lot of TL trains still say Class 319!
And once I saw a SOUTHERN SERVICE AS A PENDO!?!?

 

[Mordac]

never trust RTT with train types, a lot of TL trains still say Class 319!
And once I saw a SOUTHERN SERVICE AS A PENDO!?!?

That would be a sight to see!

 

[yorkie]

never trust RTT with train types, a lot of TL trains still say Class 319!
And once I saw a SOUTHERN SERVICE AS A PENDO!?!?

Open data sites, such as Realtime Trains and Open Train Times, do not display the booked train type.

They do, however show some timing load information (in some cases this can be a strong indication of likely train allocation). I suggest you read D6700's informative post about timing loads to avoid any potential confusion.

I'm not familiar with the inner workings of TPS, but each train will have two timing loads, one of which may be hidden from the user.

In Trainplan, which was used before TPS, both of these timing loads were visible to planners and could be independently altered if required.

The Trainplan Timing Load was used to calculate Sectional Running Times (SRT's) appropriate to the trains being planned. Additionally, there was a TSDB Timing Load, which was a much more simplified and limited value. It is the latter timing load that appears in the CIF.

A Trainplan Timing Load would automatically match to a TSDB Timing Load, but it was possible to subsequently alter the TSDB Timing Load to a different value. This was very useful if, for example, running trains over routes they don't normally work, where the relevant Trainplan Timing Load was not populated with SRT's. Other uses include changing traction type, if being replaced by something that can achieve the SRT's.

Not all tools in Train Planners' armoury are visible to end users, as they don't make it into the CIF. Three types of timing allowance are visible in TRUST and online systems - engineering, pathing and performance, but a fourth, adjustment allowance, isn't. This is a vital tool for planners, but is invisible to anybody without access to planning software. It is used to extend or reduce SRT's where required, such as differential speed junctions or when the timing load is not wholly appropriate to the train being timed. Despite what many people assume, timings are not held in the planning software for all trains over all routes. In fact, when it comes to charters and other one-off movements, it is highly unlikely that any SRT's exist in the software for that specific train. A train shown as timed to a maximum speed of 75mph or 95mph may not actually have been timed as such, that is just what the CIF outputs. Changes of Timing Load can also be made en-route.

I am pleased to see these officially approved open online systems, but do feel that many of the questions arising are simply due to people over-analysing things that don't really need to be analysed!

I hope this gives a better understanding of some of the issues raised in this thread and in some others.

 

[pdeaves]

a lot of TL trains still say Class 319!

In the general case, where newer stock performs 'better' than older, the timetable will allow for the older until such time as it has all been replaced. After then, it is easier to recast the timetable. Of course, if the 'old' timings are still adequate there is no need to change them!

 

[causton]

never trust RTT with train types, a lot of TL trains still say Class 319!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The timetables haven't changed since 319s were about - so all the Class 319 references may go when the timetable gets recast when the Thameslink works finish.
Or they could just keep on using the 319 timings as they may be close enough to the 700s!

For example, London Midland still use Class 321 timing loads despite replacing them with Class 319s as they have deemed they have about the same performance, unsurprisingly!