Reason for unusual platform layouts at Surbiton & West Byfleet

[adc82140]

Surbiton has two platform faces on the up lines, one on the slow one on the fast, but in the down direction it has one on the slow and one for Hampton Court, with no platform on the down fast. (and IIRC until the mid 90s Hampton Court down trains had to rejoin the down slow for a small distance before branching off)

West Byfleet has one on the up slow, one on the down slow and one on the down fast, but nothing on the up fast.

Can anyone tell me why these two stations have such unusual layouts?

 

[DorkingMain]

The reason for Surbiton's odd design is that Platform 4 faces a reversible line (Down Hampton Court Reversible) - it's possible to run shuttles between Hampton Court and Surbiton without crossing the main. There's a fixed red at the London end of Platform 4 for this purpose. Putting a platform face for both the down slow and down fast would have therefore required a third island, which probably wasn't worth it for a down fast platform that will never be used.

The up side of Surbiton obviously doesn't have this issue. It is worth noting that both up platforms at Surbiton have turn back signals in the down direction which are often used for shuttles when the main is closed south of Woking.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think (from memory) West Byfleet simply dates from the period when it was a three track layout along there, ie between Hampton Ct Jn and Woking, around the beginning of the 20th century.

So when they decided to four track through the station they chose a simple option, effectively just extending an existing siding track that already terminated in a London facing bay on the down side.

 

[adc82140]

All makes sense now. Of course the West Byfleet layout has been used to advantage with the fast down trains from Waterloo in the evening peak.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The arrangement at Surbiton also allows trains running first stop Surbiton to use the fast line as far as there, switching to the slow (platform 3) without having to wait for a gap on the slow line as trains on that line use platform 4. In the up direction that probkem doesn't arise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Up until about 1936 Surbiton had a more conventional four platform layout, with a central island between up and down through (fast) lines, it was then rebuilt into the present layout. In the book “Southern Electric 1909-1979”, the author suggests one of the main aims was to improve the alignment of the running lines. The down loop was provided at that time. It’s possible the final layout was all that was achievable within the railway boundary, i.e. it wasn’t wide enough to have 5 platforms for 5 lines, and what we have now is a compromise. After all, a fair number of other stations in the vicinity, (possibly of lesser importance), have an unused central island for up and down main use.

 

[30907]

The parallel movement Down Main to 3 and Local to 4 would have been the principal operational benefit. The turnback facilities and reversible working over the branch are all much more recent, though obviously handy!

 

[AndyPJG]

I had always assumed (rightly or wrongly) that West Byfleet was a result of 4 tracking, the original island platform becoming the down platforms and a new up slow platform being added.

 

[swt_passenger]

The parallel movement Down Main to 3 and Local to 4 would have been the principal operational benefit. The turnback facilities and reversible working over the branch are all much more recent, though obviously handy!

Yes, I guess it’s important to realise in these discussions that what they can do now after a couple of resignallings isn’t necessarily the explanation for what was designed 80 years ago...

I had always assumed (rightly or wrongly) that West Byfleet was a result of 4 tracking, the original island platform becoming the down platforms and a new up slow platform being added.

Except there was a period when there were 3 through tracks between “side platforms” at West Byfleet. The fourth track westwards from Hampton Court Junction was added later, on the down side of the three, presumably by widening that side of the embankment, as you can see from relevant Google street views that there are separate bridges for the down slow.

I haven’t found an old map yet showing the exact situation at opening though, but will look...

Edited to add:

OS 1872 1:2500 shows 2 tracks, but no station.
Vic Mitchell’s book reckons station opened in 1887.
OS 1896 1:2500 shows 3 through mainline tracks, 2 side platforms and a down side bay.

 

[Deepgreen]

The arrangement at Surbiton also allows trains running first stop Surbiton to use the fast line as far as there, switching to the slow (platform 3) without having to wait for a gap on the slow line as trains on that line use platform 4. In the up direction that probkem doesn't arise.

Not that exact problem, no, but those running fast line and stop at Surbiton then block the up fast while they call at p2.

 

[satisnek]

Except there was a period when there were 3 through tracks between “side platforms” at West Byfleet. The fourth track westwards from Hampton Court Junction was added later, on the down side of the three, presumably by widening that side of the embankment, as you can see from relevant Google street views that there are separate bridges for the down slow.

I haven’t found an old map yet showing the exact situation at opening though, but will look...

Edited to add:

OS 1872 1:2500 shows 2 tracks, but no station.
Vic Mitchell’s book reckons station opened in 1887.
OS 1896 1:2500 shows 3 through mainline tracks, 2 side platforms and a down side bay.

That explains it. The station was a later addition when the line was already three-tracked, and so was built with platforms on the outer tracks only. The original stations on this section had their down platforms converted to islands upon three-tracking, and when the fourth track was laid they had an additional down platform built alongside. Thus West Byfleet simply had its down platform converted to an island upon quadrupling. Weybridge was subsequently rebuilt and the centre island platform eliminated. Byfleet & New Haw and Hersham were opened post-quadrupling and so have only ever had platforms on the slow (outer) lines.

But judging by the underline bridges, it wasn't simply a case of laying a third track alongside the existing two and then a fourth alongside the third - there seems to have been an amount of slewing of the original tracks in the process.

 

[TEW]

Not that exact problem, no, but those running fast line and stop at Surbiton then block the up fast while they call at p2.

Although in the standard timetable relatively few trains call on the Up Fast at Surbiton. It is far more common to call on the Up Slow, then cross to the Up Fast at Berrylands Junction.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a bit of history that hasn’t yet been mentioned regarding Surbiton.

About 1910 the LSWR started a phased programme to 6 track the whole section from Clapham Cutting to Hampton Court Junction. Most of the initial work was done between Earlsfield and Raynes Park, but it included the extra line that ran over the new Hampton Court flyover.

The flyover had room to allow extra tracks from Guildford new line (the Claygate line) all the way to Surbiton. However works halted during WW1 and afterwards the electrification to Hampton Court and Claygate reduced the urgency as trains cleared sections must faster. These widening works never resumed.

The 1936 Surbiton rebuild was part of introducing 4 aspect signalling to allow increase in trains as part of the Portsmouth line electrification. Berrylands station opened about same time.

It was realised that with 4 aspect signalling there would be no need for 6 tracks between Raynes Park and Surbiton (and remember at the time a new Leatherhead loop line via Chessington was planned).

As already stated the rebuilt Surbiton was arranged into the available land, and curvature meant the down island was not easy to serve by non stop trains. But the plan did allow for a reversible fast (without platforms) at a later date.

It would have been too difficult to alter the bridges over the deep cutting so the outline plan was a mainline size tube on the south side for about third of a mile from Berrylands to outside of island platform. Presumably the embankment would then have been widened for 5th track to New Malden (and May have been some slewing to fit it in). This 5th line never happened, but I think I saw reference to the concept of the middle track becoming a tidal flow line, carrying mainline trains towards London in morning and outbound in evening.

I am guessing it could still be done if ever SW mainline ran out of capacity (it has as there is no extra paths), but would cost vast amounts.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a bit of history that hasn’t yet been mentioned regarding Surbiton.

About 1910 the LSWR started a phased programme to 6 track the whole section from Clapham Cutting to Hampton Court Junction. Most of the initial work was done between Earlsfield and Raynes Park, but it included the extra line that ran over the new Hampton Court flyover.

The flyover had room to allow extra tracks from Guildford new line (the Claygate line) all the way to Surbiton. However works halted during WW1 and afterwards the electrification to Hampton Court and Claygate reduced the urgency as trains cleared sections must faster. These widening works never resumed.

The 1936 Surbiton rebuild was part of introducing 4 aspect signalling to allow increase in trains as part of the Portsmouth line electrification. Berrylands station opened about same time.

It was realised that with 4 aspect signalling there would be no need for 6 tracks between Raynes Park and Surbiton (and remember at the time a new Leatherhead loop line via Chessington was planned).

As already stated the rebuilt Surbiton was arranged into the available land, and curvature meant the down island was not easy to serve by non stop trains. But the plan did allow for a reversible fast (without platforms) at a later date.

It would have been too difficult to alter the bridges over the deep cutting so the outline plan was a mainline size tube on the south side for about third of a mile from Berrylands to outside of island platform. Presumably the embankment would then have been widened for 5th track to New Malden (and May have been some slewing to fit it in). This 5th line never happened, but I think I saw reference to the concept of the middle track becoming a tidal flow line, carrying mainline trains towards London in morning and outbound in evening.

I am guessing it could still be done if ever SW mainline ran out of capacity (it has as there is no extra paths), but would cost vast amounts.

Crossrail 2 supposedly includes elements of 6 tracking between New Malden and Wimbledon of course, and IIRC they did say there was room within the railway boundary, possibly that would involve vertical walls to support the additional tracks, rather than sloping embankments.

And you’re right in that the London and SE RUS (July 2011) did describe a 5th track scheme between Surbiton and Clapham Junction and hence to Waterloo on existing reallocated track; with the middle track reversible for the peak flow direction. Berrylands would get an extra down slow line behind the existing platform, which would become an island, running on to the Hampton line, while at New Malden a new up slow platform would be built further back, allowing for the extra track, which would run into the up branch platform at Raynes Park.

I could add a drawing from the RUS if it doesn’t seem too far off topic...

 

[Dr_Paul]

Although in the standard timetable relatively few trains call on the Up Fast at Surbiton. It is far more common to call on the Up Slow, then cross to the Up Fast at Berrylands Junction.

That's right; most up non-stop or Clapham Junction only services stop at Platform 1. The crossover from up slow to up fast is marked as 60mph, and is sufficiently far up the line from the station for them to reach a good speed by the time they move across to the up fast.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is a bit of history that hasn’t yet been mentioned regarding Surbiton.

About 1910 the LSWR started a phased programme to 6 track the whole section from Clapham Cutting to Hampton Court Junction. Most of the initial work was done between Earlsfield and Raynes Park, but it included the extra line that ran over the new Hampton Court flyover.

The flyover had room to allow extra tracks from Guildford new line (the Claygate line) all the way to Surbiton. However works halted during WW1 and afterwards the electrification to Hampton Court and Claygate reduced the urgency as trains cleared sections must faster. These widening works never resumed.

The 1936 Surbiton rebuild was part of introducing 4 aspect signalling to allow increase in trains as part of the Portsmouth line electrification. Berrylands station opened about same time.

It was realised that with 4 aspect signalling there would be no need for 6 tracks between Raynes Park and Surbiton (and remember at the time a new Leatherhead loop line via Chessington was planned).

As already stated the rebuilt Surbiton was arranged into the available land, and curvature meant the down island was not easy to serve by non stop trains. But the plan did allow for a reversible fast (without platforms) at a later date.

It would have been too difficult to alter the bridges over the deep cutting so the outline plan was a mainline size tube on the south side for about third of a mile from Berrylands to outside of island platform. Presumably the embankment would then have been widened for 5th track to New Malden (and May have been some slewing to fit it in). This 5th line never happened, but I think I saw reference to the concept of the middle track becoming a tidal flow line, carrying mainline trains towards London in morning and outbound in evening.

I am guessing it could still be done if ever SW mainline ran out of capacity (it has as there is no extra paths), but would cost vast amounts.

Is this why between Surbiton and Raynes Park, particularly around New Malden, there are signs of what looks like an additional trackbed just to the north of the present four tracks?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Is this why between Surbiton and Raynes Park, particularly around New Malden, there are signs of what looks like an additional trackbed just to the north of the present four tracks?

The embankment running parallel with the railway at New Malden has nothing to do with the railway; I'm pretty sure it's for water pipes, they can be seen underneath the Kingston lines at the Elm Road level crossing, running parallel with the main line. There is an empty space about 15' to 20' wide to the north of the railway more or less from the sewage farm at Berrylands to Raynes Park, mostly level with the surrounding land, except for the embankment east of New Malden. I don't know where the pipes are from or where they go, perhaps someone here may have some information.

Local folk will be pleased to learn that this embankment has recently been opened as a bikeway and footpath from around the back of New Malden station through to Raynes Park.

 

[181]

The embankment running parallel with the railway at New Malden has nothing to do with the railway; I'm pretty sure it's for water pipes, they can be seen underneath the Kingston lines at the Elm Road level crossing, running parallel with the main line. There is an empty space about 15' to 20' wide to the north of the railway more or less from the sewage farm at Berrylands to Raynes Park, mostly level with the surrounding land, except for the embankment east of New Malden. I don't know where the pipes are from or where they go, perhaps someone here may have some information.

Local folk will be pleased to learn that this embankment has recently been opened as a bikeway and footpath from around the back of New Malden station through to Raynes Park.

I always thought it was sewage pipes heading towards the Berrylands sewage works, but according to this page you're right and it's water pipes. 'Bulk transfer mains to supply south-west London' suggests flow towards London, I'd guess from the waterworks at Thames Ditton (now closed) or Hampton, or reservoirs further afield in that direction. I'm not sure how 'feed the Surbiton supply zone' fits with that, though, unless 'the Surbiton supply zone' means the zone supplied via Surbiton rather than the one including Surbiton.

I have an idea there used to be a 5th track to the south of the Down Slow from the divergence of the Sutton line near Wimbledon to Raynes Park until fairly recent times (1980-ish?), although I'm not certain of that, and this picture suggests it didn't reach as far as Raynes Park station

 

[Snow1964]

I always thought it was sewage pipes heading towards the Berrylands sewage works, but according to this page you're right and it's water pipes. 'Bulk transfer mains to supply south-west London' suggests flow towards London, I'd guess from the waterworks at Thames Ditton (now closed) or Hampton, or reservoirs further afield in that direction. I'm not sure how 'feed the Surbiton supply zone' fits with that, though, unless 'the Surbiton supply zone' means the zone supplied via Surbiton rather than the one including Surbiton.

I have an idea there used to be a 5th track to the south of the Down Slow from the divergence of the Sutton line near Wimbledon to Raynes Park until fairly recent times (1980-ish?), although I'm not certain of that, and this picture suggests it didn't reach as far as Raynes Park station

Yes, some of the widening was completed, and an extra line ran most of the way to Raynes Park (I think it survived until 1980s), there are also long sidings that ran from Wimbledon to just north of Durnsford Road Bridge (the extra arch is still there, but now blocked by cable trays). During the construction of the Wimbledon flyover the down slow was skewed into this siding and was used as a running line.

The Kingston bypass (A3) over bridge which was built 1924-27 has extra spans to allow for the 6 tracks. A road spur towards Wimbledon (now A298) has a very similar style concrete bridge between Raynes Park and Motspur Park. The abutments for the extra tracks also exist at Raynes Park diveunder, but extra decks were never fitted

The water pipe embankment is owned by Thames Water and they only recently agreed (about 3 years ago) to the cycle path being constructed. It carries mains to some local reservoirs (possibly covered) on hills in South London.

About 10 years ago the rail over bridge at Surbiton (over A243 Brighton Road) was rebuilt with new decking, but anyone passing underneath will see spare abutment for another track. (Another part of the pre WW1 widening)

Anyone interested in the widening should take a walk along the roads under the railway west of Surbiton, Angel Lane is interesting, brick arch for 2 tracks, flanked by steel spans and separate 1915 Hampton Court flyover Line. Claygate Lane has multiple bridges (brick arch for a Hampton Court line, with widening for flyover line at higher level, steel spans for mainline and a concrete bridge for Claygate line.). Not many places you can see 4 over bridges from different decades

 

[Dr_Paul]

I always thought it was sewage pipes heading towards the Berrylands sewage works, but according to this page you're right and it's water pipes. 'Bulk transfer mains to supply south-west London' suggests flow towards London, I'd guess from the waterworks at Thames Ditton (now closed) or Hampton, or reservoirs further afield in that direction. I'm not sure how 'feed the Surbiton supply zone' fits with that, though, unless 'the Surbiton supply zone' means the zone supplied via Surbiton rather than the one including Surbiton. I have an idea there used to be a 5th track to the south of the Down Slow from the divergence of the Sutton line near Wimbledon to Raynes Park until fairly recent times (1980-ish?), although I'm not certain of that, and this picture suggests it didn't reach as far as Raynes Park station

That's an interesting piece on the water-main work. Yes, there was a siding that ran from the down Wimbledon yard on to the up Sutton line, and then ran alongside the South-Western mainline nearly all the way to Raynes Park, where it joined the down slow. A shorter siding came out of the yard, crossed the Sutton lines and then ran alongside the South-Western mainline for a couple of hundred yards, with a crossover to the long siding. This map and this map show some of this. I started using the South-Western line regularly in 1972, and never saw these sidings in use. I don't recall when they were lifted, but I think they went some time before the yard was closed.

 

[181]

Interesting stuff in the previous two posts, thankyou. My recollection is that the up-side siding at Surbiton used to extend some way beyond the Brighton Road bridge, presumbly part of the same widening scheme. Being pedantic (sorry), I think it's Angel Road (rather pleasanter than the recently closed station in NE London!) rather than Lane. Claygate Lane is associated in my mind with childhood visits to the miniature railway.

I presume it's a relic of the earlier quadrupling rather than the later planned further widening, but this discussion reminds me of the archway going part of the way under the line roughly in the middle of this view (although not actually discernible in that picture). My assumption is that it was an underbridge that was no longer required by the time the line was widened.