Received a Pre-court Action but would like to contest it

[Miafey]

Effectively, yes. That is why your story - which involves a very conveniently timed, self-deleting message - is unlikely to be believed if this case gets as far as court.

And also why most TOCs are investing in ticket machines and barriers where they can, in order to close this (and other) loopholes that collectively result in many hundreds of millions in lost revenue.

the deleting part was due to other problems and I could ask my friend for screenshots. If it is just the case of proving that there was a plan on that day and it was changed later during a time roughly about when I was on my journey then I should have no problem.

However I have no way of proving when I actually read the message do I....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We are going off topic somewhat but yes, that is possible, or there may not be many boarding at Oldfield Park and the RPI remembers exactly who boarded there.

Obviously there are other ways the railway companies use to catch fare evaders, such as the station blocks and the token system some companies use, where everyone boarding at certain stations (usually short-fare hotspots) would have to pass manual barriers to either collect a token and or be sold a ticket, so anyone claiming to have come from those stations but not in possession of a token or a valid ticket would obviously be lying and give the train company solid evidence of intent to avoid paying the correct fare, hence highly likely a criminal record should it go to court. The random nature of these blocks also add to their effectiveness.



I don't think it would be relevant to your case, only the fact that such a mechanism exists. If you are interested in further reading, I attach a copy of the Excess Fare Procedures for over-riding for your reference. Note that there is also some leeway regarding the interpretation of "opportunity to pay" before boarding.

Thank you for the document - I shall read it

Bath spa and oldfield park are really just walking distance apart. Thanks to the lesson taught by the train company, in the future I'll just walk up to oldfield park train station and catch the train there. Until they install ticket machines at oldfield park I'll be waiting for my opportunity to get a ticket on the train.

 

[najaB]

However I have no way of proving when I actually read the message do I....

Nope. And therein lies the problem. This is why I have suggested from the start that you don't want to let this case get into court - the time window for having received, read and reacted to the message is just too narrow to be convincing.

 

[talltim]

Can any explain to me what the difference between jumping off and reboarding the same train and jumping off, waiting an hour and boarding the next train is with specific regard to 5(c)?
Bear in mind it contains no concept of journeys or mention of time limits.

 

[najaB]

Can any explain to me what the difference between jumping off and reboarding the same train and jumping off, waiting an hour and boarding the next train is with specific regard to 5(c)?
Bear in mind it contains no concept of journeys or mention of time limits.

You are falling into the trap of thinking that a specific, literal (mis)reading of the precise wording of an article of legislation is enough to find a loophole that can be used to escape prosecution.

It is not. Legislation is intended to be interpreted using a common sense approach.

It is fairly plain to see that there is no practical difference between remaining seated when a train arrives at an intermediate station, and stepping out onto the platform momentarily and reboarding the the train. In either case the passenger has paid his fare for a certain distance and is knowingly and wilfully proceeding beyond that distance.

This is qualitatively different to alighting from one train, watching it disappear into the distance and waiting for the next train to arrive - be it in 5 minutes or an hour. That cannot be said to be proceeding beyond the distance paid for.

This particular act dates from 1889 and one would think that, were there such a basic flaw as the one you are attempting point out, it would have been rectified at some point in the last 116 years.

 

[87electric]

The OP gets off at Oldfield Park onto the platform as his ticket contract has finished. The RPI must see this?

What if Scenario:
If he boards the same train and another passenger/customer does so as well is
it fair to call the OP a short farer while the other person is sold a ticket on board? Both need a ticket and ask for one. First opportunity and all that.

 

[bb21]

Please refer to my Posts 106, 141, and 150 for potential complications regarding the interpretation of "first opportunity" given the OP's circumstances.

It is irrelevant the circumstances of other people because they are completely different.

As for talltim's question, I do not believe it makes any difference in theory, and it is irrelevant to the OP's case in any case. The OP encountered the RPI before he got off the train at Oldfield Park. Whether that is an opportunity will depend on the court's interpretation of what happened that day, based on available information. Taking it to the extreme, it could be argued that it were indeed an opportunity even if the OP alighted at Oldfield Park and waited for the train an hour later, should the OP know about the change in circumstances, but that is straying off into irrelevant territory as it will bring its own set of for and counter arguments.

 

[talltim]

You are falling into the trap of thinking that a specific, literal (mis)reading of the precise wording of an article of legislation is enough to find a loophole that can be used to escape prosecution.

It is not. Legislation is intended to be interpreted using a common sense approach.

In which case why are we even having this conversation? The commonsense approach to this is there should be no problem in buying a further ticket to continue a journey in exactly the same way as everyone else who starts there. It is no different from catching the next train, the TOC gets the same money (a greater amount than buying one ticket for the whole journey) and the same amount of space is taken on the train

 

[najaB]

In which case why are we even having this conversation? The commonsense approach to this is there should be no problem in buying a further ticket to continue a journey in exactly the same way as everyone else who starts there.

No. This legislation exists to prevent short faring. The OP travelled further than their ticket allowed them to - that is the definition of short faring.

You may think that short-faring and paying only when challenged is okay, but I do not.

 

[talltim]

I'm not saying that only paying when challenged is not wrong. I'm saying why is it treated any differently from simply boarding at a station with no ticket facilities?

 

[bb21]

I'm not saying that only paying when challenged is not wrong. I'm saying why is it treated any differently from simply boarding at a station with no ticket facilities?

Because he did not simply board at a station with no ticket purchasing facilities. Context is everything.

 

[talltim]

But what difference does that make? Its not about whether they would only pay when challenged, someone starting at the station could equally do that.

 

[Bayum]

the deleting part was due to other problems and I could ask my friend for screenshots. If it is just the case of proving that there was a plan on that day and it was changed later during a time roughly about when I was on my journey then I should have no problem.

However I have no way of proving when I actually read the message do I....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thank you for the document - I shall read it

Bath spa and oldfield park are really just walking distance apart. Thanks to the lesson taught by the train company, in the future I'll just walk up to oldfield park train station and catch the train there. Until they install ticket machines at oldfield park I'll be waiting for my opportunity to get a ticket on the train.

Assuming your friend does have the conversation, it is possible for them to use the original conversation to show times of messages and the like.

All they need do is tap the message they sent you and it will come up with a sent, and read time.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Based on the fact I live around this area and travel between Keynsham, Oldfield Park and Bath Spa very often, I am very interested in this.

First things first, there is no TVM at Oldfield Park. Simple fact. There is a small hut where a member of staff with an Avantix machine sits during the morning peak but that is it. Because of the lack of facilities GWR are usually fairly relaxed when it comes to ticketing and buying on board etc in regards to Oldfield Park and Keynsham, even in cases where technically the passenger is in the wrong.

Personally I'd be interesting to know what someone should do in the OP's situation. Certainly I have been travelling between the stations before where plans have changed, but it is usually the other way around (finishing short rather than staying on for longer). Presumably the OP should have approach the member of staff as soon as they reboarded the train and explained the situation then and there? Otherwise what is someone in that situation supposed to do? Wait an hour or more for the next service?

 

[bb21]

But what difference does that make? Its not about whether they would only pay when challenged, someone starting at the station could equally do that.

If you cannot see that the context makes a difference then there is very little I can say to help you understand my point of view, sorry.

Otherwise what is someone in that situation supposed to do? Wait an hour or more for the next service?

In the OP's case, probably asking before getting off as I suggested earlier, or as you say, approach the member of staff on reboarding asap.

There is no one-size-fit-all answer, and sometimes you may simply have to reboard the service but it is my understanding that all services that call at Oldfield Park have a guard onboard, so approaching him before reboarding may be a good suggestion. If the guard notes that you made an effort to speak to him first, even if there was not enough time to listen to your whole story before telling you to just get on, you are more likely to see discretion being exercised in your favour.

May I suggest that if you wish to explore this point further, please start a separate thread.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I think that after 164 posts, as others have repeatedly said, allowing this case to go to prosecution will be a very high risk strategy.

At risk of being accused of being unsympathetic, or 'stating the bleeding obvious', it's always the case that we only see one version of events from one of the people involved in the incident and it's always the person who feels they have been hard done by.

Only the OP and the inspector know what actually happened, but Magistrates will be asked to consider only the relevant facts

The OP recalls boarding the train with a ticket valid to the first stop of that train, having the ticket checked, beginning to alight at the point paid for, seeing a phone/text message from a colleague, makes a decision to re-board the same train and travel to a further destination to which no ticket is held. The OP recalls waiting for the ticket inspector to approach and then asks to pay the additional fare to a further destination, but this is declined.

What if the inspector remembers a slightly different version of events?

Inspector passes through train doing a ticket check and sees OP holds a ticket for the cheapest journey possible to the first stop of that train just as the train approaches that stop. The ticket is checked and the inspector moves on continuing a routine ticket examination into the next compartment.

After the stop the inspector recalls coming back into that carriage selling tickets as appropriate to those who boarded at that stop. After dealing with a traveller who had just been seen to board the inspector reaches the OP who is recognised as the traveller who held a ticket only to the first stop, but who is still on the train. After an initial question or two the inspector forms the genuinely held belief that the OP intended to travel beyond validity of the ticket held thereby avoiding the correct fare to the eventual destination.

The inspector alights with the OP at the newly declared destination, continues a brief P.A.C.E compliant interview, making contemporaneous notes and offering these to the OP for confirmation, then on completion advises the OP that a report will be made.

The matter reaches Court and to cut a long scenario short we reach the point at which the defendant (the OP) offers the explanation of the phone/text message, but cannot produce any evidence of its' existence and there is no evidence of this being offered, viewed or confirmed in the inspector's version of events.

Those are the details the Court will be asked to consider and why the advice given by so many is that it very well might not be a good idea to let it get that far.

 

[Miafey]

Assuming your friend does have the conversation, it is possible for them to use the original conversation to show times of messages and the like.

All they need do is tap the message they sent you and it will come up with a sent, and read time.

suppose i could but what good it would do to me? i still have to prove i did not READ the message until i was getting off the train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope. And therein lies the problem. This is why I have suggested from the start that you don't want to let this case get into court - the time window for having received, read and reacted to the message is just too narrow to be convincing.

when you have to analyse it in such details everything seems suspecious. But in reality this is just what people normally do. You have arranged to meet someone at one place.and you are travelling to that place, would you check you phone every second to see if the plan has somehow changed? when you are about to or just arrived the place, would you normally take out your phone thinking i should let him know i am here? is it that strange that this was when i saw the message? i had the phone out on my way off the train but the rpi asked to check my ticket. If it were you would you just show him your ticket ir would you say hang on a min i will need to check my phone to see if my destination has changed??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the OP's case, probably asking before getting off as I suggested earlier, or as you say, approach the member of staff on reboarding asap.

i did not even know yet before getting off so keep suggesting i could ask for a ticket before getting off is really meanless.

The second option is possible but i dont even know there was a guard on the train and certainly would never thought of doing so as i have never done so before. I have never spoken to a guard on a train before. Things seem obvious to someone who is familiar to this country may not be so to me. A lot of times I learn my way by observing. When you travel to a different country would you not see what natives do and, when in similar situation, do what you have seen others have done before?

Again it is not an excuse of not knowing or obeying the law, but it explains why i did what i did.

 

[talldave]

suppose i could but what good it would do to me? i still have to prove i did not READ the message until i was getting off the train

WhatsApp logs a Delivered time and a Read time for every message, so that might offer some interesting input into the discussion.

 

[Miafey]

The matter reaches Court and to cut a long scenario short we reach the point at which the defendant (the OP) offers the explanation of the phone/text message, but cannot produce any evidence of its' existence and there is no evidence of this being offered, viewed or confirmed in the inspector's version of events.

I can prove the existence of the text messages, but I cant prove THE PRECISE TIME of me.reading it. Again is it something proveable? If I ask you to prove when you read this post how would you do it?

I explained there was a change of plan to the RPI but he did not listen. I did not show him the messages because they are in a different language!! I am not an native english speaker my friend is not either we dont even talk in English. What good would it do if I show him some messages in a language he could not understand and say see there was a change of plan??

What kind of luck do I have if it were all made up and there was indeed a delayed train on that day at that time... For gods sake I didnt even know before i came here that you could check the time of past trains....

I surely understand this and it is true that you only get my side of the story. But thought Id explain this bit as others might have the same question

 

[bb21]

i did not even know yet before getting off so keep suggesting i could ask for a ticket before getting off is really meanless.

It is not meaningless.

It is the most appropriate course of action when you have a change of plan. Of course it is possible that you only realised this when you were getting off, but it is not us, rather the court, that you have to convince it is indeed what happened should the matter proceed that far, rather than you already knowing about the change of plan but did nothing about it.

The second option is possible but i dont even know there was a guard on the train and certainly would never thought of doing so as i have never done so before. I have never spoken to a guard on a train before. Things seem obvious to someone who is familiar to this country may not be so to me. A lot of times I learn my way by observing. When you travel to a different country would you not see what natives do and, when in similar situation, do what you have seen others have done before?

Again it is not an excuse of not knowing or obeying the law, but it explains why i did what i did.

I think you just answered your own question.

When in a new country, the last thing I do is assume. I do my research beforehand, and if unsure about things when there, I ask. No doubt it is not helped in your case that railway legislation in this country is complex and gives the train companies a lot of power (too much power some might say but that is neither here nor there for your dilemma), but to answer your question, no that is absolutely not what I do in a foreign country.

I think just about every corner is covered in this thread. At the end of the day, you will have to make the difficult decision as to which way you consider to be the least damaging going forward. I would have liked to be a bit more positive about the outlook but there is just too much uncertainty for my liking.

 

[Miafey]

WhatsApp logs a Delivered time and a Read time for every message, so that might offer some interesting input into the discussion.

Just checked the app and no it doesnt

It does not even have a precise time stamp for each message. If you send a massage now it will have a time stamp of, say 0937, and if you send a couple of more messages in the next couple of minutes it will not give it separate time stamps. If you wait for like 10 mins before the next message then you will get a new time stamp. It is a very simple app for instant message never meant to be something that could go through the most strict scrutiny.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you just answered your own question.

When in a new country, the last thing I do is assume. I do my research beforehand, and if unsure about things when there, I ask. No doubt it is not helped in your case that railway legislation in this country is complex and gives the train companies a lot of power (too much power some might say but that is neither here nor there for your dilemma), but to answer your question, no that is absolutely not what I do in a foreign country.

I think just about every corner is covered in this thread. At the end of the day, you will have to make the difficult decision as to which way you consider to be the least damaging going forward. I would have liked to be a bit more positive about the outlook but there is just too much uncertainty for my liking.

What you have said here is certainly correct but easier said than done. This is a specialised forum so people here have extraordinary knowledge about this aspect of the law. If you ask other native people I would be surprised if half of them would ever read the TOC. And I assume even in your own country you yourself have areas you are not familiar with. When it comes to things serious for example buying a house you may well take the time to do the research but when it comes to simple things like taking buses and trains people hardly do. I am sure a lot of people travel to other European countries and I would be very surprised if they all read all terms and conditions very carefully in those countries beforehand unless they have a specific interest in this area.

I think I get enough information to conclude that it is not a good idea to let it go to court. And considering that I have had a very comprehensive lesson about UK transport system I cant say a 80 pound fine is not worthwhile. What made me feel bad is never the money, but the fact that I have been accused of something I have not done, not only once but twice (the intention bit and giving wrong information) and I have been pretty much denied a chance of defending myself. Yes there is still court but it is not an affordable option. I have no problem with small claim court but I dont want to mess around about criminal court. As a foreigner here I simply cant afford a criminal record. Sending such stronger letter with no intention to discussion/negotiation whatsoever and with thread to bring court proceedings to someone who has never had any records of wrongdoing in travelling before shows what a strong position railways companies are at. No wonder it is them who put up price every year.

And I am sorry to say that but given the current running conditions of the railway system (the extent of delays and cancellations), the conditions of the trains (old), the unnecessarily over complicated network and system, the facilities of the stations (poor), I would be laugh out loud if this is the system that other countries "envy with ". What for? I dont travel that much but all other European countries I have been to has better/modern trains, more punctual services, better ticketing facilities and less confusing system than the UK do. The only positive part with my experience with railway in the uk was customer service and now it is gone. In my particular case I did not see honesty has got me any reward. Just by simple calculation, if I in the future travel from oldfield park to keynsham without being checked for more than 25 times I will be saving up pretty much the fine I will be paying. So I could knowingly travel without a ticket without being fined while being punished for absolutey having no such intention.

I guess I could see what I will do. Having been through all the discussion here I really dont want to repeat all these again with the train company and certainly would not want to have any contact whatsoever with the particular RPI. I am going to accept the offer on a "without prejudice basis" (new thing learned from their letter) so that it wont make me feel that bad as I am not admitting to the accusation.


And with very refreshed knowledge about the system I will certainly travel smarter in the future. The ultimate aim will be to protect myself from any possible accusation rather than being faithful.

 

[simonw]

If I was the magistrate hearing your case, unless there was hard evidence that you read the message as you left the train, I would find against you as the story just doesn't sound plausible. Even if you could prove you read it as you left the train it would of itself not sway me as there is too much else that doesn't hang together. At the end of the day it is for you to decide but I would have thought the chances of a criminal conviction are so high, and the potential consequences for you in terms of getting a criminal record,would mean that the rational thing to do, no matter if you think you are in the right, is to come to an out of court settlement.

 

[bnm]

Conversely, I find the blackmail of "Pay us £80 or will take you to court to pursue a criminal conviction" perverse in the extreme.

The OP ended one journey at Oldfield Park and wished to start another. I believe their account as to why this happened. It's perfectly possible, in less than a minute, to step off a train, read a text message that says their friend won't be there, and decide to go home instead.

 

[simonw]

Conversely, I find the blackmail of "Pay us £80 or will take you to court to pursue a criminal conviction" perverse in the extreme.

The OP ended one journey at Oldfield Park and wished to start another. I believe their account as to why this happened. It's perfectly possible, in less than a minute, to step off a train, read a text message that says their friend won't be there, and decide to go home instead.

Possible but IMHO unlikely. The OP has as far as I can see never offered an explanation of why they were originally going to meet at oldfield park rather than Bath or Keynsham which would seem more suitable. I know it is entirely up to him why they decided that but it just seems a little odd that he has not mentioned that at all.

 

[najaB]

The OP ended one journey at Oldfield Park and wished to start another.

As I said earlier in the thread, he boarded a train at Bath Spa and alighted from the same train at Keynsham. It is less than clear that momentarily stepping on the platform at Oldfield Park makes this two journeys.

 

[talldave]

Just checked the app and no it doesnt

It does not even have a precise time stamp for each message. If you send a massage now it will have a time stamp of, say 0937, and if you send a couple of more messages in the next couple of minutes it will not give it separate time stamps. If you wait for like 10 mins before the next message then you will get a new time stamp.

It's your friend's WhatsApp that will have the delivered and read times for their sent message. You press and hold on the specific message, then click the"i" icon at the top of the screen.

I also think the approach should be pay up and complain, but keep the complaint factual and succinct. I'd certainly be asking more about the call from the police officer being part of normal operating procedure.

 

[Miafey]

Possible but IMHO unlikely. The OP has as far as I can see never offered an explanation of why they were originally going to meet at oldfield park rather than Bath or Keynsham which would seem more suitable. I know it is entirely up to him why they decided that but it just seems a little odd that he has not mentioned that at all.

I did not mention because no one asked and I did not think it was important. If you think it is then please ask. Of course the more I explain, there is a risk that people would think "no everything just sounds more and more fishy". Like I said when you look at things in such detail everything becomes suspecious.

I do not have any problem with people asking questions, but please don't assume I'm concealing anything just because there is something I did not mentio

He came from my home country for a very brief visit in Bath (to UWE) and had brought things from home for me. His journey on that day to UWE begins from and ends in Oldfield Park and because he was not here for leisure I offered to come to a place closest to him to pick things up to save him the trouble of coming for me. Does this sound a little odd as well?

As I said I missed the opportunity in the morning. Entirely my fault. When I took trains to Bath before I normally took the 8:48 train which stops at Oldfield park but I was running late that morning so I took the train 10 min later, which turned out to be a direct train from Keynsham to Bath. So I missed him in the morning. I had other arrangements for that morning and he did as well. And he would still come back in the evening so no big deal. We rearranged it to later that day in the evening.

In the evening when he told me his train was late and suggested to meet up at Keynsham, if I had the time and opportunity to discuss with him I would have suggested I'd wait for him at oldfield park. Because I don't mind waiting a bit there. There is not much to do in Keynsham and as he would have finished his day I would ask him whether he had time for dinner. There are not many places we could go in Keynsham anyway.

However, the situation was, both of us were travelling, towards each other. H e suggested one thing and I just did not have time to counter-propose. That moment I was just thinking if I could not stop him from getting off at Keynsham and I myself stopped at Oldfield park, my train to him will be in 1 hour's time and I had no idea how much longer he would need to wait for his train to me. We would be stranded at different stations and he was in a foreign country he is not familiar with. To me at that time it seemed the best option would be to take that train to avoid any more alteration to the plan.

Of course if I could travel back in time I would perhaps wait at oldfield park for even a million years for the next train. But I couldn't. That was a decision made in seconds without the opportunity to carefully weighing the pros and cons. Even if I had immediately regretted it as soon as the train moved as I realised I did not have a ticket and I would be in trouble, I would had no choice but to purchase a ticket. What else could I do? Press the emergency stop button or jump off the train as I should not have boarded in the first place? And the reality was I knew I would need to buy a ticket but as the RPI was already walking in my direction I stayed and waited for him. He was still the length of the carriage away. I did not move to the next carriage or hide myself or anything. I waited because I thought it would be OK.

With the benefit of hindersight I would certainly do things differently but at that time I did not think there was anything wrong with that.

I believe such things may happen to everyone and what happened to me was not that "novel". It's just if you do not get confronted by a RPI you would perhaps never think it is something special or something you need to spare more thoughts with.

 

[bb21]

What you have said here is certainly correct but easier said than done. This is a specialised forum so people here have extraordinary knowledge about this aspect of the law. If you ask other native people I would be surprised if half of them would ever read the TOC. And I assume even in your own country you yourself have areas you are not familiar with. When it comes to things serious for example buying a house you may well take the time to do the research but when it comes to simple things like taking buses and trains people hardly do. I am sure a lot of people travel to other European countries and I would be very surprised if they all read all terms and conditions very carefully in those countries beforehand unless they have a specific interest in this area.

No they wouldn't study all the little technicalities normally because it is mostly common sense, and it is the same in this country, but as I said before, it is pretty unfortunate that the way things panned out in your case resembled one that could quite easily be misinterpreted as one of a deliberate fare dodger. I don't know how other countries deal with cases like that, but their policies are likely to be different so unlikely to help with your case here.

I think I get enough information to conclude that it is not a good idea to let it go to court. And considering that I have had a very comprehensive lesson about UK transport system I cant say a 80 pound fine is not worthwhile. What made me feel bad is never the money, but the fact that I have been accused of something I have not done, not only once but twice (the intention bit and giving wrong information) and I have been pretty much denied a chance of defending myself. Yes there is still court but it is not an affordable option. I have no problem with small claim court but I dont want to mess around about criminal court. As a foreigner here I simply cant afford a criminal record. Sending such stronger letter with no intention to discussion/negotiation whatsoever and with thread to bring court proceedings to someone who has never had any records of wrongdoing in travelling before shows what a strong position railways companies are at. No wonder it is them who put up price every year.

I don't think prices have anything to do with that, but you are right in that they are in a very strong position, and I can totally understand your frustrations this time.

And I am sorry to say that but given the current running conditions of the railway system (the extent of delays and cancellations), the conditions of the trains (old), the unnecessarily over complicated network and system, the facilities of the stations (poor), I would be laugh out loud if this is the system that other countries "envy with ". What for? I dont travel that much but all other European countries I have been to has better/modern trains, more punctual services, better ticketing facilities and less confusing system than the UK do. The only positive part with my experience with railway in the uk was customer service and now it is gone. In my particular case I did not see honesty has got me any reward. Just by simple calculation, if I in the future travel from oldfield park to keynsham without being checked for more than 25 times I will be saving up pretty much the fine I will be paying. So I could knowingly travel without a ticket without being fined while being punished for absolutey having no such intention.

I don't think I have ever said that we have a railway system that is the envy of Europe, so unless you are quoting from some industry propaganda I don't really know where you got that from. In fact, on the contrary, I agree that many things should be changed, but I don't run the railway companies so I can only go by my understanding of the current system and advise accordingly. What I think should happen matters nought in this case.

I guess I could see what I will do. Having been through all the discussion here I really dont want to repeat all these again with the train company and certainly would not want to have any contact whatsoever with the particular RPI. I am going to accept the offer on a "without prejudice basis" (new thing learned from their letter) so that it wont make me feel that bad as I am not admitting to the accusation.

Good luck.

And with very refreshed knowledge about the system I will certainly travel smarter in the future. The ultimate aim will be to protect myself from any possible accusation rather than being faithful.

Yes it would be a smart move.

Conversely, I find the blackmail of "Pay us £80 or will take you to court to pursue a criminal conviction" perverse in the extreme.

I quite agree, but what can we do to change that?

 

[martinB]

And I am sorry to say..<snip>

I have to agree with this para., and very much sympathise with your pedicament - all over £3.70. I know others will say that its the principle and that revenue protection is important. But we also read of so many contra-examples where exceptions are made: the "attitude test", allowed to travel FOC because you've got on the wrong train, the "Christmas spirIt", etc. I suppose that discretion is a two-edged sword with the TOC losing income when it is applied!

 

[najaB]

I suppose that discretion is a two-edged sword with the TOC losing income when it is applied!

Yes, it is. And that means that sometimes innocent people get caught in the net. The OP is just unfortunate that his actions match those of a fare dodger and there is no way to prove that he wasn't.

 

[Miafey]

And like I said I'm upset because I don't feel I had the chance to explain at all. If I had the chance to explain, like I do here, then if at the end of the day they say "sorry but you don't have convincible evidence there so we will have to fine you" or "we believe what you said but unfortunately what you did is construed as travelling without a ticket so we will have to fine you", then that'll probably be fine. Several minutes of interrogation, to me, should not count as I did not even get to finish what I would like to say.

As everyone said it might be difficult to predict what a judge would say. It is the precise reason why I should have the right to give my statement before a case is brought to court. For example if a police officer thinks someone is shoplifting, will they ask them for statement first and then decide whether to prosecute or will they say we saw what we saw we will prosecute you and your chance to make your case will be at the court before the judge? They'd say "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. " But to remain silent is my RIGHT, I should also have the right to speak.

I was reading other posts in this forum and other companies do send letters to travellers for explanation. I never had that opportunity. Sending a letter to me and say "pay or you have the risk of being prosecuted" is just... I cant even find a proper adj to describe this. So they know you won't take the risk of going to court because they can afford losing a small court action but you can't.
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I don't think I have ever said that we have a railway system that is the envy of Europe, so unless you are quoting from some industry propaganda I don't really know where you got that from. In fact, on the contrary, I agree that many things should be changed, but I don't run the railway companies so I can only go by my understanding of the current system and advise accordingly. What I think should happen matters nought in this case.

Sorry I was quoting #58, nothing to do with you but just thought about that comment.

I think my frustration largely comes from being slapped on the face with this letter while hoping wholeheartedly that that I would have an opportunity to explain.

Because of the frustration I don't think I've got the best attitude here while I should do because a lot of you are trying to help me, regardless of whether they are optimistic or not about what a judge or a third party would say.

I should apologize for that as it is definitely not the best of me and I'm not proud of it.

This is the first time I am accused of something criminal in my entire life so found it hard to accept. But at the end of the day life is life we all have to carry on.