Reddish Junction - Brinnington Junction (GC / Mid Joint)

[Sir Felix Pole]

I had an enjoyable cycle-ride on the trackbed of this line today through Reddish Vale Country Park - it was also interesting to see the impressive Reddish Vale Viaduct on the Marple line from ground level. Cursory examination of t'internet has revealed little about this line or indeed any images of it in operation. As far as I can tell it was intended as rival route from Manchester to Stockport, with a branch to Marple. The Midland, however, expressed an interest in the Marple section from the outset to gain access to Manchester and so it became the main-line instead. The Stockport link never appears to have had a passenger service and was closed sometime in the 1960s - my 1974 (revised1972) OS 1:50 000 map shows it lifted. It is a fascinating area - I also rode under the LNW Stockport- Stalybridge line which unbelievably today was quadruple at that point. There were also several collieries in the the area until the 1920s, each with their own connecting railways.

Does anyone know any 'further reading' about this line, and particularly the traffic operated over it? Thanks.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is this the mile or so of former track, to the west of Brinnington, and once connecting the line still in place between Reddish North and Bredbury with that (now largely lifted) between Stockport Tiviot Dale and Woodley?

 

[daodao]

The Great Central Railway ran regular passenger services every 1-2 hours from M/c London Rd to Stockport Tiviot Dale via Reddish North and this line before WW1. The services are shown on pages 637 and 639 of the April 1910 Bradshaw, of which I have a 50 year old reprint.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

"Lost Railways of Merseyside & Greater Manchester" by Gordon Suggitt published in 2004 mentions the link from Reddish Junction to Brinnington Junction in passing.

Initially used by CLC (Cheshire Lines Committee) trains heading east from Stockport Tiviot Dale heading to Manchester London Road station from Liverpool Brunswick.

This ended with the opening of (Manchester?) Central station in 1880.

By 1903, the chief use was for fifteen GCR (Grand Central Railway) weekday trains from Tiviot Dale to London Road, but such services ended by 1918.

The line then stayed in use for freight until c. 1965 but was then lifted and the trackbed is now a footpath.

 

[Senex]

The passenger service ended in a series of reductions down to zero during the cuts in the latter stages of WW1 as Mcr Warrior says. However, as things got back to normal after the war one service was restored, and this ran right up to the cuts in September 1939 (after which it never came back). The 0005 departure from St Pancras split at Derby, with one portion then running non-stop to Manchester Central. The second portion called at Matlock then Stockport Tiviot Dale where (Mondays excepted) it divided again, with the front portion going forward to Liverpool and the back portion running via Brinnington Jn and Reddish Jn to Manchester Victoria (where the D&C reprint of a 1938 Bradshaw shews it arriving 25 minutes after the main train had arrived in Central).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably the local name of the "Dead line" was acquired post-closure?

 

[S&CLER]

The mileages on this line were measured from Liverpool Central HL via Cheadle and continued beyond Reddish Junction as far as Ashburys East Junction. That's why the old Midland mileage from St Pancras via Matlock ends at the former Reddish Junction.
The Dead Line is a nice walk, with some good rock cuttings, but it peters out near Brinnington and then you have to emerge into a dull housing estate.
Bob Pixton's book The Cheshire Lines Railway between Glazebrook and Godley touches on this line but only incidentally; it has a photo of Reddish Junction.

 

[Senex]

The mileages on this line were measured from Liverpool Central HL via Cheadle and continued beyond Reddish Junction as far as Ashburys East Junction. That's why the old Midland mileage from St Pancras via Matlock ends at the former Reddish Junction.

Not so. The distance from Liverpool Central to Brinnington Jn via Warrington station was 38m 23ch, with another 1m 22ch to Reddish Jn giving 39m 45ch. But the current Sectional Appendix gives the handover as 181 m = 42m 77ch. The 42m 77ch (and the continuation of this series to Ashburys) is in fact the old Midland mileage measured from Ambergate North Jn, from the days when each line was individually mileposted. The 181 m is the new Midland mileage measured through from London St Pancras. By the time the Midland re-measuring of the system was done, the dividing-point for maintenance responsibilities on this joint line was at Reddish Jn, with the GC taking over at that point, and so the Midland posts stop there, conveniently at a full mile. The GC never got round to replacing the old mileposts.

 

[S&CLER]

Not so. The distance from Liverpool Central to Brinnington Jn via Warrington station was 38m 23ch, with another 1m 22ch to Reddish Jn giving 39m 45ch. But the current Sectional Appendix gives the handover as 181 m = 42m 77ch. The 42m 77ch (and the continuation of this series to Ashburys) is in fact the old Midland mileage measured from Ambergate North Jn, from the days when each line was individually mileposted. The 181 m is the new Midland mileage measured through from London St Pancras. By the time the Midland re-measuring of the system was done, the dividing-point for maintenance responsibilities on this joint line was at Reddish Jn, with the GC taking over at that point, and so the Midland posts stop there, conveniently at a full mile. The GC never got round to replacing the old mileposts.

Thanks for the correction. I was misled by the information given in the Quail track maps. It had puzzled me that a CLC mileage should appear to continue off the CLC proper and on to the GC & Midland Joint line, and your explanation solves the mystery.

 

[Senex]

Thanks for the correction. I was misled by the information given in the Quail track maps. It had puzzled me that a CLC mileage should appear to continue off the CLC proper and on to the GC & Midland Joint line, and your explanation solves the mystery.

I find mileposts and mileposting (and the continental equivalent with the km-markers and hectometre-markers) fascinating and only wish there was a full study of it all somewhere. Quite often the posts still point back to earlier stages in the story of a route. And that's quite apart from the interest in their design as well. At least in this country (=state) we don't have political considerations to take into account as well!

PS I've just had a look at the early OS 25" maps and they shew that the mileposts on the CLC main line read from Manchester in the 1890s with those on the Godley to Glazebrook line reading from zero at Godley Junction. That raises the questionof when the CLC ws re-measured to read from Liverpool.

 

[S&CLER]

I find mileposts and mileposting (and the continental equivalent with the km-markers and hectometre-markers) fascinating and only wish there was a full study of it all somewhere. Quite often the posts still point back to earlier stages in the story of a route. And that's quite apart from the interest in their design as well. At least in this country (=state) we don't have political considerations to take into account as well!

PS I've just had a look at the early OS 25" maps and they shew that the mileposts on the CLC main line read from Manchester in the 1890s with those on the Godley to Glazebrook line reading from zero at Godley Junction. That raises the questionof when the CLC ws re-measured to read from Liverpool.

Same here. Do you know if another bit of the GC & Midland Joint, the Widnes loop off the CLC, in which the GN presumably chose not to take an interest, had its own mileage or was measured from Liverpool Central? The Railway Year Book for 1921 gives the total (track?) mileage of the GC & Midland Joint Committee as 40.2 miles, rather more than I expected.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not so. The distance from Liverpool Central to Brinnington Jn via Warrington station was 38m 23ch, with another 1m 22ch to Reddish Jn giving 39m 45ch. But the current Sectional Appendix gives the handover as 181 m = 42m 77ch. The 42m 77ch (and the continuation of this series to Ashburys) is in fact the old Midland mileage measured from Ambergate North Jn, from the days when each line was individually mileposted. The 181 m is the new Midland mileage measured through from London St Pancras. By the time the Midland re-measuring of the system was done, the dividing-point for maintenance responsibilities on this joint line was at Reddish Jn, with the GC taking over at that point, and so the Midland posts stop there, conveniently at a full mile. The GC never got round to replacing the old mileposts.

Trackmaps shows the mileage up to Ashburys as "Miles from Liverpool Central (CLC) via Cheadle and Stockport TD".
But there does seem to be a discontinuity of about 2 miles in the expected Liverpool mileage from Reddish Jn.
It's a strange coincidence that two completely different mileage runs are confusingly similar in the same small area.
The RCH diagrams show the distance between junctions, but not cumulative mileages or origins.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Altrincham%2C_Broadheath_%26_Timperley_Apethorne%2C_Bredbury%2C_Brinnington%2C_Godley%2C_Marple_%26_Woodley_RJD_73.jpg

I find mileposts and mileposting (and the continental equivalent with the km-markers and hectometre-markers) fascinating and only wish there was a full study of it all somewhere. Quite often the posts still point back to earlier stages in the story of a route. And that's quite apart from the interest in their design as well. At least in this country (=state) we don't have political considerations to take into account as well!

On my first trip through CZ, I noted a km-post in the 530 range near the German border at Děčín and wondered where it was measured from.
I was intrigued to find that it was measured as built from Vienna, and CZ has not re-measured the route.
However there are small discontinuities where the modern route diverges from the original around Brno and Prague.
The ex-Yugoslav states still have km posts measured from Belgrade, and the other successors in the Austro-Hungarian Empire were also re-measured from new origins.
I think Poland had the hardest job, with railways derived from 3 former Empires and with repeated border changes since.

Planning ahead, the Caledonian and Cambrian started their mileage near the Scottish/Welsh borders at Carlisle and Whitchurch.

 

[Senex]

Trackmaps shows the mileage up to Ashburys as "Miles from Liverpool Central (CLC) via Cheadle and Stockport TD".
But there does seem to be a discontinuity of about 2 miles in the expected Liverpool mileage from Reddish Jn.
It's a strange coincidence that two completely different mileage runs are confusingly similar in the same small area.
The RCH diagrams show the distance between junctions, but not cumulative mileages or origins.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Altrincham%2C_Broadheath_%26_Timperley_Apethorne%2C_Bredbury%2C_Brinnington%2C_Godley%2C_Marple_%26_Woodley_RJD_73.jpg

With all due deference I think Trackmaps is simply wrong here. If you look back at the old OS maps you'll see the CLC main line mileposts shewn up to the start o fthe 1890s as measured from zero at Manchester and the Stockport line as measured from Godley Junction. It appears that some time during that decade the CLC was re-measured and posted to start from a zero at Liverpool with the Liverpool-origin figures running to both Manchester and over the line through Stockport. But as has been noted, the line from Reddish Jn to Brinnington Jn was not CLC but S&M, like the Widnes Loop. As is well known, the Midland Railway produced in its Estate Office definitive distance-maps of it system, with corrections to the sheets being issued annually and new editions of sheets being produced when there were enough changes to justify this. Staff were instructed to keep their copies of the book up to date! The Manchester area appears on Sheet 16, and the tenth edition of this was issued in 1923 (after Grouping). This shews Brinnington Jn as "C.L.C. with G.C. & M.R." at 180m 79ch from St Pancras, 38m 26ch by the milepost mileage (i.e. from Liverpool Central), and 1m 24ch by the milepost mileage from Reddish Jn, in other words measured in the standard Midland fashion from zero for a line that could not be reached by facing junction from London. Reddish Jn is given as 181m 5ch from St Pancras and 0m 0ch for the Brinnington Branch, and the end of Midland maintenance is given as 181m 5½ch. I have never seen any reference to a re-mileposting of the CLC system and should be very interested to hear more about it, and why the zero-point was changed (even though the line remained Down towards Liverpool) to Liverpool Central, is anyone knows any details.

On my first trip through CZ, I noted a km-post in the 530 range near the German border at Děčín and wondered where it was measured from.
I was intrigued to find that it was measured as built from Vienna, and CZ has not re-measured the route.
However there are small discontinuities where the modern route diverges from the original around Brno and Prague.
The ex-Yugoslav states still have km posts measured from Belgrade, and the other successors in the Austro-Hungarian Empire were also re-measured from new origins.
I think Poland had the hardest job, with railways derived from 3 former Empires and with repeated border changes since.

Planning ahead, the Caledonian and Cambrian started their mileage near the Scottish/Welsh borders at Carlisle and Whitchurch.

It was Czechoslovakia (as was) that I was mainly thinking of, where no attempt seems to have been made to change the old mileposting running through from Austria—its existence doesn't seem to have been a matter causing offence. But there are other examples, one, for instance, being the main line from CZ to Dresden, where zero is some 12 km south of the German border in Bodenbach (now Dečin hl.n.) Poland did indeed have the hardest job, but also seems to have been the state most desperate to get away from anything suggestive of the past as far as railway km-posts go. As you say, it inherited lines from three empires (and on two gauges). Whilst it's hard to see just looking at a map where the borders between the Austro-Hungarian and German systems were, it's still surprisingly clear where the Russian border ran. One-time main lines that had their km-posting thoroughly mucked up by political changes rather extensively include the Preußische Ostbahn from Berlin to Königsberg i.P. and the Russian border at Eydtkuhnen and the Erzherzog Johann-Bahn, the Südbahn, from Vienna to Triest.

The Caledonian system is interesting. Its measurement starts well and truly in England, in the middle of Carlisle Joint Station, of which it was one of the two owners, and it then numbers continuously through to Aberdeen, giving it one of the longest runs on Britain's railways. (Only two companies got above 300, but there were several that got above 250.) The Caledonian's mileage to Edinburgh actually does rfeverse at Carstairs rather than going round either the original or the later direct curve. When Scotland become independent, will the mileposts be swept away and a new series of km-posts starting with zero at Edinburgh be installed?

 

[S&CLER]

At the risk of going way off-topic, I recall that I was puzzled by the milepost distances at Holt on the North Norfolk line: they seemed to be too low to be measured from Peterborough or Saxby, and too high to be measured from Norwich. I asked the booking clerk, but he didn't know. Eventually after a few minutes of passing the query up the chain of command, a very smart figure in a peaked cap and immaculate uniform told me "the mileage is from South Lynn, sir". I would never have guessed that.
Weren't there double sets of mileposts, both measured from Manchester, for the L&Y and LNW in the section they shared through Mirfield?

 

[Bevan Price]

At the risk of going way off-topic, I recall that I was puzzled by the milepost distances at Holt on the North Norfolk line: they seemed to be too low to be measured from Peterborough or Saxby, and too high to be measured from Norwich. I asked the booking clerk, but he didn't know. Eventually after a few minutes of passing the query up the chain of command, a very smart figure in a peaked cap and immaculate uniform told me "the mileage is from South Lynn, sir". I would never have guessed that.
Weren't there double sets of mileposts, both measured from Manchester, for the L&Y and LNW in the section they shared through Mirfield?

1. The Midland & Great Northern case is unusual, because a reversal was necessary at Melton Constable to reach Holt & Cromer from South Lynn, so one would normally expect there to be a new mileage series starting zero at Melton Constable. In practice, the series seems to have been South Lynn Jn to Melton Constable West Jn (reversal, and not including the station), then onwards via Holt to Sheringham & Cromer Beach. For anyone travelling by train, you would have to added 2 x 6 chains, representing Melton Constable West Jn to Station & back, to give the distance actually travelled....

2. Yes, two sets of mileposts did (and may still) exist between Heaton Lodge Jn., Mirfield & Ravensthorpe Jn. - and both have zero points at Manchester Victoria.