Reducing the risk of people using expired Railcards by accident

[Bletchleyite]

One common prosecution or settlement is where Railcards have expired and people haven't noticed. I think we could do more to avoid this.

How about:

* For accreditation, sites and apps (and maybe even TVMs) must ask for the Railcard number and expiry date when selling a discounted ticket. When buying an advance-dated ticket they could also have an option "I haven't bought the Railcard yet", but it could be clearly printed on the ticket that the passenger selected this which could then be used to determine whether they were being truthful or not. Nothing for the time being would stop someone lying and entering a false date, but doing so would be evidence of fraud if caught.

* Add barcodes to Railcards which should be scanned alongside the relevant e-ticket when a human is scanning in person?

* Have Railcards where entitlement doesn't need to be re-proven renew automatically by Direct Debit?

Any more suggestions?

 

[stuu]

* For accreditation, sites and apps (and maybe even TVMs) must ask for the Railcard number and expiry date when selling a discounted ticket. When buying an advance-dated ticket they could also have an option "I haven't bought the Railcard yet", but it could be clearly printed on the ticket that the passenger selected this which could then be used to determine whether they were being truthful or not. Nothing for the time being would stop someone lying and entering a false date, but doing so would be evidence of fraud if caught.

* Add barcodes to Railcards which should be scanned alongside the relevant e-ticket when a human is scanning in person?

Having to input the number would make a lot of sense, it's a bit odd that it isn't asked for already. The number of people buying a ticket but not planning on getting the railcard until nearer the date must be pretty small I would have thought, so perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to insist on having a valid railcard when the ticket is purchased

Do TVMs have any scanning ability? Digital railcards already have a barcode, so it wouldn't be much of a leap to insist they are scanned when buying a ticket

 

[James H]

* Add barcodes to Railcards which should be scanned alongside the relevant e-ticket when a human is scanning in person?

This would be too fiddly when people will likely have railcard and ticket on the same device but different apps

 

[jfollows]

Having to input the number would make a lot of sense, it's a bit odd that it isn't asked for already. The number of people buying a ticket but not planning on getting the railcard until nearer the date must be pretty small I would have thought, so perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to insist on having a valid railcard when the ticket is purchased

I certainly do, but I have to admit it was only when I realised I could.
The downside probably being that if I couldn’t buy the ticket first I’d probably not bother making the trip. The upside is that I’d probably renew my railcard when it expires rather than waiting for my next trip.
I don’t have much sympathy with people who forget their railcard has expired today, there are many other annual things that people have to remember, nothing special about a railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having to input the number would make a lot of sense, it's a bit odd that it isn't asked for already. The number of people buying a ticket but not planning on getting the railcard until nearer the date must be pretty small I would have thought, so perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to insist on having a valid railcard when the ticket is purchased

Up until the early 2000s when Trainline became a thing, and a bit later when planner based TVMs allowed purchase for a different date, this was the case anyway - to buy a ticket at a booking office with a Railcard discount required producing the Railcard.

It has however become a more common use-case now people typically buy more in advance than they did. There are a few options, though. One might be to allow post-dated Railcards to be issued, another might be that the ticket isn't sent to the ToD system/the e-ticket issued until the details are supplied when the Railcard is purchased. A third is allowing the customer to simply say "I've not bought it yet", but that would remove them any protection from it being assumed an error if caught without.

Do TVMs have any scanning ability? Digital railcards already have a barcode so it wouldn't be much of a leap to insist they are scanned when buying a ticket

No, but adding this doesn't seem a bad idea. It might also be able to be used to offer other things like excesses, refund applications etc on barcoded tickets. A general principle I'd like to see is that all railway transactions can be completed at all sales points by all operators, and this would help to work towards this.

This would be too fiddly when people will likely have railcard and ticket on the same device but different apps

Given that you are supposed to show the Railcard when you show the ticket (other than at gatelines), then I don't see how this is any different to now. Many staff don't ask for it, but they aren't doing their job correctly.

 

[jfollows]

Given that you are supposed to show the Railcard when you show the ticket (other than at gatelines), then I don't see how this is any different to now. Many staff don't ask for it, but they aren't doing their job correctly.

I show mine automatically for on-train ticket checks, but I've noticed that a lot of people don't and that they're often not asked to either. If this were done properly - presumably it's part of the ticket checking job description - then people would be more aware of the expiry date of their railcards.

Otherwise, there are "technology" solutions which the person responsible for the railcard can employ - it's not hard to add a calendar reminder for the expiry date of course. I don't feel trying to make the ways of using railcards more complicated to be the right solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I show mine automatically for on-train ticket checks, but I've noticed that a lot of people don't and that they're often not asked to either. If this were done properly - presumably it's part of the ticket checking job description - then people would be more aware of the expiry date of their railcards.

I normally only show mine on request, and it is hardly ever requested. Maybe one in 20 times.

You've then got journeys on Chiltern's Met line services and a lot of south WCML journeys when the only check is a gateline. (I've been using the Chiltern Met Line a fair bit of late, and I've never had an on-board ticket check - do they completely rely on the gatelines at Marylebone or is it just a very occasional RPI sting I've just not encountered yet?)

 

[Schweir]

Why should people have to enter their railcard number every time they purchase a ticket, just because a minority of people are not organised enough to know when they need to renew their railcard. Surely a reminder email(s) that an indiviuals railcard is about to expire can be sent as a less intrusive alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should people have to enter their railcard number every time they purchase a ticket, just because a minority of people are not organised enough to know when they need to renew their railcard.

Because humans are flawed. Good to see you're perfect and never forget anything!

Surely a reminder email(s) that an indiviuals railcard is about to expire can be sent as a less intrusive alternative.

This should be done additionally. As well as the option for direct debit renewal.

 

[Schweir]

Because humans are flawed. Good to see you're perfect and never forget anything!



This should be done additionally. As well as the option for direct debit renewal.

People need to start taking more responsibility and not expected to be spoon fed. Asking everyone to enter their railcard number each time they purchase a ticket, just because their railcard might have expired seems very over the top, however this makes more sense to help ensure that a person buying a ticket is entitled to the discount.

 

[wilbers]

Why should people have to enter their railcard number every time they purchase a ticket, just because a minority of people are not organised enough to know when they need to renew their railcard. Surely a reminder email(s) that an indiviuals railcard is about to expire can be sent as a less intrusive alternative.

I'd suggest they not need to do that for just purchasing 1 ticket, but do so if they want the website/app to remember the railcard for future purchases as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd suggest they not need to do that for just purchasing 1 ticket, but do so if they want the website/app to remember the railcard for future purchases as well.

Curiously Trainline, which has Railcards in its app, doesn't manage to tally the two! (Yes, I know, don't use....)

Yes, the app/website could remember it. It could also add a question "Is this ticket for you?" and if you picked no remove the details for that purchase (another thing that seems to come up quite often is people inadvertently buying Railcard tickets for others).

 

[jfollows]

I agree that stored railcards in apps/websites could be clearer than they seem to be, at least to put up some sort of warning, a bit like the (slightly annoying) "are you sure" when I want to transfer money through online banking which panders to the people who couldn't get this right.

It also made me think that the DVLA might like to send out helpful reminders for the car tax thing (whatever it's really called, I don't care) in the form of something you could attach to your car to remind you when it expires. What amuses me about this one is they stopped doing it to save money, but ended up losing far more in unpaid tax because of the vast number of people who then forgot, of course many of whom ended up fined for their ignorance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that stored railcards in apps/websites could be clearer than they seem to be, at least to put up some sort of warning, a bit like the (slightly annoying) "are you sure" when I want to transfer money through online banking which panders to the people who couldn't get this right.

Trainline and Trainline-based apps seem to randomly keep or drop them. I'm yet to notice a pattern, and it's quite annoying because it's nearly caused me to buy an undiscounted ticket by accident more than once. (OK, the "penalty" for that is rather smaller!)

It also made me think that the DVLA might like to send out helpful reminders for the car tax thing (whatever it's really called, I don't care) in the form of something you could attach to your car to remind you when it expires. What amuses me about this one is they stopped doing to save money, but ended up losing far more in unpaid tax because of the vast number of people who then forgot, of course many of whom ended up fined for their ignorance.

At least that offers a Direct Debit option so you have an option that can't be forgotten.

I think they should reinstate MoT expiry date stickers, though, the prompt you'd see every time you got in the car was quite useful.

 

[SynthD]

Given that you are supposed to show the Railcard when you show the ticket (other than at gatelines), then I don't see how this is any different to now. Many staff don't ask for it, but they aren't doing their job correctly.

I can easily flip from one app to another for the two barcodes a guard wants to see, but copying a long code from one app to the other is difficult. Even if there was a clipboard icon at both ends, many won’t know what that means.

Ticket apps could scan a physical railcard. Digital railcards could make themselves available to ticket apps. But you’ll have to account for people who don’t know, don’t want to, or can’t. The ‘bad people’ will slip into the necessary cracks, while the good people suffer annoying extra steps.

If you wanted to solely target ‘bad people’, you’d need to have a way of knowing them. If someone had a Trainline account, and an official warning about unproven railcards, then require that account to give the railcard number of any railcard they want to use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can easily flip from one app to another for the two barcodes a guard wants to see, but copying a long code from one app to the other is difficult.

It's really not. Long press, copy, long press, paste. Once. Then it would remember it.

 

[Buzby]

Why should people have to enter their railcard number every time they purchase a ticket, just because a minority of people are not organised enough to know when they need to renew their railcard. Surely a reminder email(s) that an indiviuals railcard is about to expire can be sent as a less intrusive alternative.

I fully agree - and looking at the list of folk who complain that their card had unknowingly expired or had been pre-selected on their chosen booking site I can see where they are coming from. The vendor should be prevented from EVER allowing a railcard discount scheme to be pre-selected (by looking up their customer’s parameters).

It may make a few miss a lower priced ticket but at least they can never be prosecuted - it’s a valuable lesson for the future. By making it always OPT-IN to select a discount the user is then responsible for such a declaration and would not be legally liable unless they made a misleading claim. Surely this would address the problem instantly?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I fully agree - and looking at the list of folk who complain that their card had unknowingly expired or had been pre-selected on their chosen booking site I can see where they are coming from. The vendor should be prevented from EVER allowing a railcard discount scheme to be pre-selected (by looking up their customer’s parameters).

It may make a few miss a lower priced ticket but at least they can never be prosecuted - it’s a valuable lesson for the future. By making it always OPT-IN to select a discount the user is then responsible for such a declaration and would not be legally liable unless they made a misleading claim. Surely this would address the problem instantly?

I quite like it being preselected, because I only ever buy tickets for myself.

However, what I would like is for it to deselect when the Railcard expires unless I've updated the date. Then I can't make a costly error.

However removing the preselection doesn't solve the problem, because is everyone going to get their card out and check the date on it before they select it while rushing to the station? Of course they aren't, unless asked to enter the expiry date.

 

[jfollows]

However removing the preselection doesn't solve the problem, because is everyone going to get their card out and check the date on it before they select it while rushing to the station? Of course they aren't, unless asked to enter the expiry date.

I think that's exactly right, it parallels the "are you sure" banking thing, it's just another annoying step in the process which didn't have to be done before and people will simply click on something automatically without thinking, just like I do with the banking one. It could ask for the expiry date, which would trap some errors, and presumably require the user to enter the details including the expiry date at first use and remember this.

It's also like the "cookie" thing, what might have been well-intentioned is now a complete pain which murders usability of the Internet everywhere. Be careful what you wish for, sort of thing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My Two Together railcard expires next week and I have received an email reminder about this from National Railcards.

It's a start.

I wouldn't mind pre-selection on a website if it asks you for the full number and the expiry date before you can store it to the website, in exactly the same way you have to for a credit card. A small are you sure? pop-up at purchase would be sufficient after that. It would also assist in preventing people buying railcard-discounted tickets unless they have a railcard- they would either have to submit false details (e.g. making up a railcard number and expiry) or they would have to tick a box along the lines of 'I've not bought one yet'.

I think that's exactly right, it parallels the "are you sure" banking thing, it's just another annoying step in the process which didn't have to be done before and people will simply click on something automatically without thinking, just like I do with the banking one.

But the banking one has a lot of good stuff hidden under the bonnet, the biggest one being the checking of bank account and payee details. If they don't match you don't get an "are you sure" box, you get a big warning to tell you to really check.

 

[stuu]

Why should people have to enter their railcard number every time they purchase a ticket, just because a minority of people are not organised enough to know when they need to renew their railcard. Surely a reminder email(s) that an indiviuals railcard is about to expire can be sent as a less intrusive alternative.

Can you think of any other circumstances where a business offers a discount without asking you to prove you are entitled to it? You get asked to show a railcard at a ticket office - they don't take it on trust

 

[Buzby]

I quite like it being preselected, because I only ever buy tickets for myself.

However, what I would like is for it to deselect when the Railcard expires unless I've updated the date. Then I can't make a costly error.

My point was that everyone should be required to opt-in. There will be folk who prefer the status quo, but it’s only a matter of moments. Further, since you cannot guarantee all your (expected) preferences to be pre-populated, is it that much of a hardship to check? When compared with being stopped on a train or gate line by an unsympathetic RPI inspector I know what I’d prefer!

As for auto-deselection - this would assume a central registry exists and I don’t believe it does so this would be a non flyer. Further this would discriminate against anyone buying a (say) discounted Advsnce ticket who planned to purchase a railcard closer to the date of travel - which makes sense.

 

[AM9]

Given that forcing everybody who has a railcard when booking online or at a TVM to enter their railcard serial number, inconveninces everybody, maybe use the opposite measure of a confirmation to buy screen that says something like:
I understand that I may be liable for a penalty or prosecution if I do not present a valid railcard which I require when travelling on this ticket.
followed by an accept and not accept buttons.
Only the 'accept' button delivers the ticket. This would clarify the position and the traveller shows that they accept the terms of the contract that they have bought into.

 

[jfollows]

Given that forcing everybody who has a railcard when booking online or at a TVM to enter their railcard serial number, inconveninces everybody, maybe use the opposite measure of a confirmation to buy screen that says something like:
I understand that I may be liable for a penalty or prosecution if I do not present a valid railcard which I require when travelling on this ticket.
followed by an accept and not accept buttons.
Only the 'accept' button delivers the ticket. This would clarify the position and the traveller shows that they accept the terms of the contract that they have bought into.

That's just a backside-covering exercise by the people who issue tickets.
I know what you're saying, but anyone who buys tickets regularly will automatically choose "accept" and won't check their railcard's validity at the same time.
Just like the "are you sure" things from my banks which I ignore and automatically click "yes".
In theory, what you're saying is sensible in a way, but it won't make any real difference to the problem. The only end result is that the prosecution will be able to say "we told you so, and you agreed, so there".
EDIT And makes the entire TVM booking process even more annoying, unpleasant and convoluted for the 99% of us whose railcards are always valid.

 

[800Travel]

When a season ticket is purchased, a photocard number has to be added each time. Therefore needing to add a railcard number to a ticket would have some precedent, but seems quite over the top and time consuming. Would only be good if you added the card details in the profile section of the app, and then it was automatically applied (and told you each time it was) until it expired or was removed. An automated reminder of expiry email laying out options for renewal would be good - surprised to hear it isn’t a thing already!

 

[TheTallOne]

I think I’d prefer a reminder email rather than need to find the pass and enter the number to buy a ticket.

Maybe the reminder email could have a calendar appointment file attached to it, which I could save to my calendar.

 

[Helvellyn]

How much will it cost to update all those TVMs to add scanners?

How much tonipdate every retailer website to capture all those railcard details?

How much to link the whole lot to a validation database, that would need to handle digital railcards, centrally issued plastic ones and the paper ones issued at stations?

Will it cover Gold Cards and Gold Card Record cards?

Will it handle regional railcards?

What happens when someone forgets their railcard, gets a Penalty Fare and argues that they shouldn't have had to show a railcard if they had to have one registered to buy a ticket?


It's personally why I would rather all railcards were scrapped and a flat reduction of fares happened. All that administration cost saved. All that extra time checking tickets reduced. All those arguments with staff avoided because someone can't produce a railcard or produces an invalid one.

(Largely playing devil's argument with much of the above but how much is this really making life easier and how much is mitigating lack of some personal responsibility?)

 

[snalty]

This would be too fiddly when people will likely have railcard and ticket on the same device but different apps

This could be sorted by allowing people to put their railcards in Apple Wallet or Google Wallet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This could be sorted by allowing people to put their railcards in Apple Wallet or Google Wallet.

This really does need to happen, but would require the Railcards to be more like e-tickets (i.e. verified centrally via a barcode) rather than the way they are now which is more like an m-ticket.

 

[800Travel]

This could be sorted by allowing people to put their railcards in Apple Wallet or Google Wallet.

If we could put them in Apple wallet, I would go for digital rather than physical.

Tbh, given they have a photo, I’m not entirely sure why RDG/ATOC doesn’t permit people to have a digital and a physical. That way, we have a backup version if we lose the physical or if our phone dies or we cannot get signal etc.