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Reform UK discussion

brad465

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11 Aug 2010
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Taunton or Kent
At County Council elections, in the council ward in the part of Nottinghamshire where I live, the Conservatives have always won with a large majority. At the last election in 2021 the share of the votes were Conservative 68%, Labour 20%, Greens 7% and Lib Dem 5%. It will be interesting on 1st May to see how the share of the votes may change and what percentage Reform get. The Conservatives have always had big support from the local farmers but this time one of the well known local farmers is standing as the Reform candidate! I think I will probably vote Conservative to hopefully stop him winning for Reform. I don‘t know how much support this man will get from the other farmers, but they certainly won’t be voting Labour!
This set of local elections were contested in the "vaccine bounce", leading to the Tories doing much better than expected. Now they have an awful lot to lose as a result of that high point, a disastrous government track record and no sign of recovery in opposition so far. I can see Labour having a net change of close to zero, or a small decline, but the main headline will be a Tory collapse, followed by Reform, Lib Dems, etc. picking them all up.
 
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Cloud Strife

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I think that part of the problem is that most of the signs are that Kier Starmers is a party that follows right-wing neoliberal economics. This is a policy that has ultimately failed many areas of the country, as skilled industries have been closed down, and the 'hand of the free market' quite simply has not provided the sort of quality jobs that used to exist - instead it's mostly service work, and low-skilled industries without technical progression opportunities.

Absolutely. As my friend says, none of the parties have anything to offer his town, as the problems always hinge on the fact that any future is going to involve a lot of capital investment. They aren't struggling for jobs, but the jobs that exist are essentially either dead-end retail jobs or a dead-end warehouse-type jobs. There is some small-scale industry there, but none of the businesses are financially capable of investing in several hundred new jobs there.

I once asked him what he would do to save the town, and he asked back: "should it be saved?". We got into it, and he explained that the town had developed around the mine and that there was no natural reason for it to exist apart from that. It doesn't have a particularly good geographical location, it doesn't have any industrial potential, there are no raw material resources except coal, and with the town having zero identity except the former mine, it would need a huge amount of investment.

He said that part of the issue is that even though there are still coal deposits there that could be mined, modern technology would mean that it still wouldn't employ the numbers that it did in the past. That's before we discuss the fact that there's simply no market for the coal, and even the locals themselves are against burning coal for their own use.

I'll admit, this combination of right-wing social policies, and left-wing economics that seems to be more present in reform is a little worrying - there is a real risk that the ineffectual immigrant bashing get the credit for positive progress in those sorts of policies.

I would argue that it's very, very difficult to fight against. Law and Justice in Poland ran probably the hardest left-wing economic government since 1989 in the 2015-2023 period, and it's still exceptionally hard to fight against. While they did almost nothing for the 'ordinary man' and many of their large scale projects simply failed miserably, there's no doubting that it was very popular with the electorate.

It goes back to the same story: neoliberalism badly failed many communities. There are certainly jobs and opportunities out there, but I don't think anyone ever explained to these people exactly what was going to happen next and how. There's also the problem that in a wealthy country, people simply don't want to do the jobs that they think they want/need: for instance, if they won't work as a long haul truck driver, they're not going to work down the mines.

I used to work as a teacher in a past life, and part of my job was to do careers-related talks with students. I remember telling one group of 16 year olds that truck driving was a decent industry to get into, that if they got all their qualifications, they could earn a decent amount with a very normal shift pattern. The general consensus was "nah", even among girls who had little prospects once they left school beyond minimum wage jobs. The problem was partially cultural: no-one had ever shown them female role models who earnt a lot of money from trucking. I did manage to swing one soldier to come to us who was a driving instructor for the Army, and she had managed to get all her driving qualifications at 17 from the Army for free. But again, when you got into it with girls, it was always a cultural problem: they were being brought up at home to end up in dead-end minimum wage childcare jobs, not professional careers with decent salaries.
 

Chuffing Heck

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26 May 2022
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England
The problem is the uni party isn’t interested in anyone beyond the M25 people have been sold out and now the uni party are wondering why no one wants to keep voting for same treatment, no doubt if there is any sign of the uni party being voted out they will move the goal post as they usually do.
I also put reform in the uni party they are no different to the others, Farge/Starmer/Kemi make out they are for the people they are not.
 
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DarloRich

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12 Oct 2010
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Fenny Stratford
I expect Reform to win the upcoming Runcorn & Helsby by election.

BTW - the problem Reform have is that many of thier candidates are just cranks and whoppers. Try Reform Exposed on social media for more details. I thought they were "vetting" people...............................

( https://x.com/reformexposed )
 

styles

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7 Dec 2014
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450
Location
Fife (the Kingdom)
Interestingly, most of the comments online I see in support of Reform in the Kent County Council elections don’t seem to understand these are local elections, not national.
For example, many say we need to get Labour out, completely disregarding the fact that Kent County Council is run by the Conservatives. Shockingly, facts don’t seem a particular strong point amongst Reform supporters.
This is a longstanding issue.

I used to canvass with a political party and when you're door knocking about a council by-election you'll get people saying oh no I'll never vote (party X) since (name of party X leader from 20 years ago).

We're asking you to vote for someone to decide how often your bins are collected, not whether we launch air strikes in Syria.

People seemed to be think Farage will be PM in 2029 but TBH because of how FPTP works, it's very hard for a small party to go from single figures to forming a Government.
It is, but only to a point.

Often smaller parties fail to make headroom because people seem their votes for smaller parties as wasted. That's normally the case.

However, if people start to see the smaller party actually win seats, that can change. UKIP ran in 8 general elections and only ever won 1 seat, under Farage. Reform have run in 2 general elections and already won 5 seats. That does signal to voters that it is possible for them to take seats away from the major parties, despite the whole, "This is a two horse race!", and, "Party X can't win here!", leaflets put through the letterboxes.

Reform got more votes than the Lib Dems in the last election, and were effectively punished by FPTP. That doesn't mean they can't tip the scales in a bunch of historically safe seats if the other major parties keep up their current image (Labour ineffectual, Tories chaos, Lib Dems not even taking things seriously).

Whether it's enough cards thrown into the air to make Farage PM is another thing of course, but I'd be cautious about underestimating people like Farage, especially now that he has a seat in the Commons and gets to directly question and challenge the prime minister.

I suspect Badenoch will do an ok job in the end of retaining some voters who would otherwise vote Reform - her public comments are arguably more aligned with Farage than they would've been aligned with Sunak, May, Cameron, even Johnson, etc. Whether Starmer can do anything to keep disenfranchised working class voters on side, I'm less sure.
 
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bleeder4

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19 Jan 2019
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447
Location
Worcester
I voted for them in the general election last year. As I do before any general election, I read through the manifesto pledges of each party with a candidate in my area, put ticks beside the ones I support and crosses beside the ones I don't. The party with more ticks than crosses gets my vote. This time around that was Reform. Yes a few of their candidates are a bit loony, but that's a consequence of such rapid growth in such a short space of time. That will get better over time as they mature and transition from being a party on the sidelines to a party in the mainstream. The Reform candidate in my area ended up getting 14% of the vote, which was pretty good considering he was starting from 0%. The Tory candidate got 25%, so I can definitely see that gap closing even more in the next general election.
 

muz379

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23 Jan 2014
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Reform will probably pick up some seats accross the country on the 1st may . And then herald it as a huge victory . But if any get in on my local council ill be holding them to account every step of the way .

In a few cases some of the councillors reform are now running are former Conservative party councillors campaigning against budgets or decisions they approved during their time as Conservative councillors . Its just absurd , and nobody really engages with local politics despite it in many cases have direct impacts upon peoples daily lives . Protest votes in local government are just a total act of self harm imo .

Ive also found this talking locally to people that support Reform that actually they have a lot of greivances about the areas they live in but none of them have ever contacted their councillor about any of them or engaged in any scrutiny of what the council is doing . Then I ask them what will be different with a reform councillor if they won't engage with the council they just shrug their shoulders and go back to the "well they are all the same anyway aint they" routine . One recently told me that our local council needed a "DOGE style audit because we don't really know where our money is going", when I pointed out that audited accounts including a record of any spending over £100 is publicly available he told me to "shut up" and that "I dont know what i'm going on about". Now I am the first to be critical of the poor value of money some of the contracts my local council has with private sector organisations . But if you aren't going to accept the reality and scrutinise it in the correct way then you aren't going to be able to do anything about this . Of course we also know that most people involved in senior positions in Reform UK wouldn't be against rinsing the public purse with private sector contracts .

Reform’s biggest hurdle will be in finding a swathe of people who can equal Farage’s capabilities as an unflappable snake oil salesman, or as his own bank (Coutts) called him, ‘a disingenuous grifter’, something that most would consider libellous but which Farage never took them to court for.
The thoughts that Reform would be able to form a government that could stay loyal to Farage is quite frankly laughable . Not only does the party not have any real talent or experience in government , but the sorts of people it attracts dont have loyalty or integrity in their makeup so there would just be constantly infighting .

I dont think Farage wants to attract people like him , he wants to attract people that will do what he says and won't question him .
 

Cloud Strife

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25 Feb 2014
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Whether Starmer can do anything to keep disenfranchised working class voters on side, I'm less sure.

I don't think he can. While they have a mandate for meaningful social reform, I'm not convinced that Labour have the willingness to do it, especially after the failed Corbyn experiment. It leaves the door wide open to a Reform-type party who will promise the world, even though they fundamentally have no interest whatsoever in the actual issues in ex-mining towns and so on.

Ive also found this talking locally to people that support Reform that actually they have a lot of greivances about the areas they live in but none of them have ever contacted their councillor about any of them or engaged in any scrutiny of what the council is doing .

Unfortunately, this alienation from public life is a common problem among the working classes. It would take a lengthy essay to explain it all, but there has been a very clear erosion of their participation in public life over the past 30-40 years, including no longer having any sort of real say in schools

A very bread-and-butter working class friend supports Reform. I asked her why not that long ago, and she said that she was sick and tired of unelected school bureaucrats making her child's life a living hell. We got into it, and she has a very valid point: the school is run by a random MAT, there is a clear pattern of them minimising or denying SEN provision where they can, the MAT has a distant board of trustees which are clearly "friends of the boys", and there are many issues in the school as a whole.

The critical thing? The local Reform leader actually responded to her cry for help and got stuck in. He's a bit unhinged, but he jumped into her case with enthusiasm, he pestered the MAT in some very effective ways,

The other parties? Labour were silent, the local Tory MP said "it's a matter for the MAT", the Lib Dems sympathised but didn't help, and so she was left with a Reform guy who spent his time and effort taking up her case against the school. There are some very real issues being uncovered, including that the "celebrity CEO" of the school has been steadily increasing his salary while SEN spend is down as a percentage, and the Reform guy has been really pinning the school down on numerous issues. And to the credit of the Reform guy, he also built bridges with individual teachers who are acting as whistleblowers, which is how they discovered that there were orders to cut back on SEN provision "where possible".

While the simple answer is "the other parties must do more", we shouldn't forget that Reform are saying what people are thinking.
 

styles

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Fife (the Kingdom)
Unfortunately, this alienation from public life is a common problem among the working classes. It would take a lengthy essay to explain it all, but there has been a very clear erosion of their participation in public life over the past 30-40 years, including no longer having any sort of real say in schools

While the simple answer is "the other parties must do more", we shouldn't forget that Reform are saying what people are thinking.
Indeed.

The difference is, the working class used to feel they had a voice in the form of Labour.

For a long time time now I feel Labour has tried too hard to do PR and trying to please anyone and everyone.

Now that they're in government again, they're not using their position to bring about positive change. I appreciate that there's an element of 'steadying the ship' after the Tories running through prime ministers like supply teachers, and to an extent I think there are voters who are happy to just have somebody boring but stable at the helm; but ultimately so many people voted for Reform because they wanted change, and if Labour don't deliver it, I wouldn't want to be in Starmer's boots at the next general election.

We had a by-election recently after an MSP became an MP. People walked into the polling station, asked who the Reform candidate was, found out there wasn't one, and walked out. This was in an area with a very high level of deprivation and they just don't see the opportunities coming or things getting better. They wanted 'reform' last year, and they'll want it in 4 years time if Labour don't deliver.
 

Cloud Strife

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They wanted 'reform' last year, and they'll want it in 4 years time if Labour don't deliver.

Couldn't agree more. The dynamics are perhaps a bit different in Scotland, but there's no doubting that Reform have become the voice of working class communities who were left behind in some way. Labour can't and won't make massive structural changes, but they need to hurry up and make some changes that will result in meaningful change for those left behind communities in England.

The strength of Reform is that they're untainted with neoliberalism, at least on the surface. A Reform candidate can attack schools for many of the idiotic and stupid policies put in place as a result of the government obsession in England with school performance, and they will score points among working class voters who can clearly see that the education system there is not for the masses. As my friend says: her son's school uniform costs are completely out of control, with tiny logos being used to justify massive costs from "favoured suppliers". No-one from Labour, the Lib Dems, Greens or the Tories showed any interest whatsoever in this topic, it took the Reform guy showing interest for the "celebrity CEO" to admit that it was ethically wrong to demand several hundred pounds for school uniform when the same items can be bought in Tesco for less than a hundred.

Labour need to address these issues, and they are very low lying fruits. A simple and straightforward regulation that schools cannot require anything more than a generic uniform with the exception of a tie would work wonders, and show that they're in touch with ordinary families. Of course, neoliberalism has meant that school uniforms are a very effective backdoor way of financing schools without requiring local or central government financing.
 

m0ffy

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24 May 2022
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Leicestershire
Couldn't agree more. The dynamics are perhaps a bit different in Scotland, but there's no doubting that Reform have become the voice of working class communities who were left behind in some way. Labour can't and won't make massive structural changes, but they need to hurry up and make some changes that will result in meaningful change for those left behind communities in England.

The strength of Reform is that they're untainted with neoliberalism, at least on the surface. A Reform candidate can attack schools for many of the idiotic and stupid policies put in place as a result of the government obsession in England with school performance, and they will score points among working class voters who can clearly see that the education system there is not for the masses. As my friend says: her son's school uniform costs are completely out of control, with tiny logos being used to justify massive costs from "favoured suppliers". No-one from Labour, the Lib Dems, Greens or the Tories showed any interest whatsoever in this topic, it took the Reform guy showing interest for the "celebrity CEO" to admit that it was ethically wrong to demand several hundred pounds for school uniform when the same items can be bought in Tesco for less than a hundred.

Labour need to address these issues, and they are very low lying fruits. A simple and straightforward regulation that schools cannot require anything more than a generic uniform with the exception of a tie would work wonders, and show that they're in touch with ordinary families. Of course, neoliberalism has meant that school uniforms are a very effective backdoor way of financing schools without requiring local or central government financing.

Additional controls on school uniform affordability are going through Parliament at the moment:


These will place limits on branded items, and require schools to implement a secondary market on uniforms. It follows legislation from 2021 on suppliers of uniform items.

Governing boards have final say on uniforms, but the implementation of academy trusts has weakened them somewhat and moved power to the trustees. On the bright side, the new government has removed the financial incentives for academy conversion.
 

Purple Train

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The critical thing? The local Reform leader actually responded to her cry for help and got stuck in. He's a bit unhinged, but he jumped into her case with enthusiasm, he pestered the MAT in some very effective ways,

The other parties? Labour were silent, the local Tory MP said "it's a matter for the MAT", the Lib Dems sympathised but didn't help, and so she was left with a Reform guy who spent his time and effort taking up her case against the school. There are some very real issues being uncovered, including that the "celebrity CEO" of the school has been steadily increasing his salary while SEN spend is down as a percentage, and the Reform guy has been really pinning the school down on numerous issues. And to the credit of the Reform guy, he also built bridges with individual teachers who are acting as whistleblowers, which is how they discovered that there were orders to cut back on SEN provision "where possible".

While the simple answer is "the other parties must do more", we shouldn't forget that Reform are saying what people are thinking.
Which, irrespective of the political persuasion of the man, or the lunatics in his party, or the shadiness of his superiors in the Parliamentary party, is fantastic work and should be applauded. Certainly more work than his party leader has ever done in his life.

Sadly for the fate of the country as Reform gains traction, I suspect this man is an outlier - but nevertheless, hearing stories of politicians genuinely doing their best to serve really brightens up my day. Thank you for sharing that :)
 

DarloRich

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Fenny Stratford
I voted for them in the general election last year. As I do before any general election, I read through the manifesto pledges of each party with a candidate in my area, put ticks beside the ones I support and crosses beside the ones I don't.
But not the likelihood of being able to fund them...............

Also I don't understand how you can "choose" each time - surely you pick a side and stick with it!

This was in an area with a very high level of deprivation and they just don't see the opportunities coming or things getting better. They wanted 'reform' last year, and they'll want it in 4 years time if Labour don't deliver.
They might get Reform but they wont get the promised improvements. What is worrying is that people are unwilling to see what's what!
mines aren't going to reopen, shipyards aren't going to reopen, steel works aren't going to reopen.

When the foreins are gone and things are still awful then what?
Sadly for the fate of the country as Reform gains traction, I suspect this man is an outlier - but nevertheless, hearing stories of politicians genuinely doing their best to serve really brightens up my day. Thank you for sharing that
My local labour councillor who is now the MP for the adjacent city constituency was very responsive is sorting out local problems. The current crop have carried that on. They sorted out bins, parking problems ( even though that got me a parking ticket!) some minor anti social behaviour, a rat problem and other general small scale local issues.

As said above - you are voting for someone to sort this sort of stuff out not bomb Syria!

BTW - Reform couldn't run a bath. Most of them are cranks, salon bar bullies and golf club bores.

The establishment, it doesn’t matter who you vote for, nothing changes, they are exactly the same been like it for over 30 years now they might wear different colours but when they get voted in they sell out our souls.
Aye, whatever. This is exactly the kind of nonsense that gets cranks like Farage elected.
 

brad465

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Taunton or Kent
The establishment, it doesn’t matter who you vote for, nothing changes, they are exactly the same been like it for over 30 years now they might wear different colours but when they get voted in they sell out our souls.
Then back a systemic reform that gets rid "the uni party", such as proportional representation. Apathy only benefits the status quo and makes you complicit in retaining it.
 

Bald Rick

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28 Sep 2010
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BTW - Reform couldn't run a bath. Most of them are cranks, salon bar bullies and golf club bores.

I do wish that the local Reform candidate would pop round to do some canvassing. I’d really enjoy it. However I suspect I’m on a list of ‘not to be visited…’
 

Bevan Price

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22 Apr 2010
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When the economy is in a bit of a mess, and they think that traditional parties do not have the right solutions, history tells us that there are sometimes enough gullible voters to elect a (currently minor) party that seems to offer different solutions. Whilst I don't think Mr Farage would create a situation like 1930s Germany, I would be worried about what came later.......
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Surrey
When the economy is in a bit of a mess, and they think that traditional parties do not have the right solutions, history tells us that there are sometimes enough gullible voters to elect a (currently minor) party that seems to offer different solutions. Whilst I don't think Mr Farage would create a situation like 1930s Germany, I would be worried about what came later.......
Indeed which it is why its incumbent on the main parties to not ignore history and recognise the concerns people have however poorly informed and address them and not cede the space to Reform.
 

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