Refusal to give up space for wheelchair

[jimbo99]

I was with my paralysed 83-year old mother who is in a wheelchair hoping to board TfL's SL5 service. When it arrived, the driver got off the bus and said he couldn't take my mother because there was a pushchair in the wheelchair space. I asked him to ask the person to move, the space is coloured blue with a wheelchair logo. There is also a sign (attached). He asked the person who then refused - the driver asked us to get the next bus, saying it wouldn't be long. (It was 15mins.)

I've heard recorded announcements saying (something like) "Please move out of the wheelchair area to make space for a wheelchair. The bus will wait until the area is clear." - the implication is the bus will not move until the area is clear.

What do people think and anyone know the policy? My view is the bus should indeed wait for the space to be clear. Eventually the passenger concerned would then move and know for next time that "wheelchair priority" means that.

I think the driver's approach was totally wrong in the first place - he should have told the PAX to move first. Instead, he asked my mother to get the next bus. (He might have played the announcement - I might not have heard it.)

 

[hexagon789]

I understood that, after a test case, wheelchair users effectively had priority by law on public transport?

I'm sure I've seen 'priority by law' signage on certain operators too.

 

[Spsf3232]

Wheelchairs have priority and the driver should ask for the space to be made a available for them.

It's law in Scotland for wheelchair users to be given access to those spaces however not much can be done other than ask someone to move and if they won't then that's as much as they can be expected to do. The driver will report a failure to uplift wheelchair to the depot upon return making note of the incident.

It's pointless going any further and threatening to have police involved as it takes longer than the next bus to arrive usually, if they show at all. Best thing to do is to say thank you to the driver for trying and understand that some humans don't have any care towards people and put in a complaint with the company. The driver is simply trying to do his best and get home to his family at the end of the day without any stress or incident

 

[K4016td]

Once I had witnessed a driver who refused to move from the bus stop when some mum didn't want to fold the buggy in the peak time for a wheelchair user (one of then Slough's Citaros with airport luggage racks which only had one space for the buggy/wheelchair) and I guess that's either down to individual company's policy or maybe just that driver wanted to teach her a lesson. Nevertheless it worked and about 2 minutes of huffing and puffing by other passengers we finally managed to depart with mum folding the buggy.

 

[Nawm8]

Paulley Vs First Bus is the relevant test case. Basically states that drivers must ask but can not remove a passenger with pushchair from occupying the wheelchair space.

The recorded announcement is nothing more than an empty threat, sadly.

 

[jkkne]

Go North Esst operate an Easy Access taxi guarantee. If they cant take the wheelchair they’ll order you a taxi through control to your end destination.

Seen it happen quite a lot of times, mainly due to massive buggies laden with shopping blocking the spaces

 

[Busaholic]

Go North Esst operate an Easy Access taxi guarantee. If they cant take the wheelchair they’ll order you a taxi through control to your end destination.

Seen it happen quite a lot of times, mainly due to massive buggies laden with shopping blocking the spaces

That's a good policy, but would never be introduced in London because TfL don't run the buses themselves, instead contracting them out. The bus driver's service controller works for one of these companies, so would have no responsibity for, or interest in, calling a taxi. They'd just want to keep the bus moving at all costs.

 

[greenline712]

That's a good policy, but would never be introduced in London because TfL don't run the buses themselves, instead contracting them out. The bus driver's service controller works for one of these companies, so would have no responsibity for, or interest in, calling a taxi. They'd just want to keep the bus moving at all costs.

Actually, that's not quite the case.
TfL also have a control room, CENTRECOMM, which deals with emergencies of all kinds, and drivers can be connected directly with them if necessary.
It would be possible for a wheelchair-enabled taxi to be ordered via them if appropriate.

If TfL wanted to, they could instruct for this to be done ... they don't .... yet!

 

[richw]

Go North Esst operate an Easy Access taxi guarantee. If they cant take the wheelchair they’ll order you a taxi through control to your end destination.

Seen it happen quite a lot of times, mainly due to massive buggies laden with shopping blocking the spaces

Other operators do too, however if the next bus is in 15 minutes as mentioned by the OP then that bus is likely to show quicker.
As drivers we can ask, but have no power to physically remove a pushchair. Peer pressure normally works if you say you will be delaying the bus. I’ve never had a refusal yet.

 

[mb88]

As others have said, the driver is required to request that the pushchair be folded down to allow the wheelchair user to board, however we have no power to remove them if they refuse. It’s a sad state of affairs. I do wish people would be a bit more sensible when buying buggies if they plan to take them on buses. Some of them these days are the size of a light aircraft. The sense of entitlement is unreal and they just expect that they are always going to be able to take it on unfolded. Either buy a smaller one that is able to be folded, or be prepared to wait for the next bus.

 

[Geordie driver]

Go North Esst operate an Easy Access taxi guarantee. If they cant take the wheelchair they’ll order you a taxi through control to your end destination.

Seen it happen quite a lot of times, mainly due to massive buggies laden with shopping blocking the spaces

That's fab and how it should be.

One thing of note, not all pushchairs are equal, some are for a disability and it might not be obvious to the driver and passengers shouldn't be asked about their disability status.

I have known passengers say the buggy is broken and can't be folded. Minefield.

 

[LordCreed]

One thing I wish is that operators order vehicles with separate wheelchair and pushchair bays. With the exception of rural routes using tiny vehicles, it really shouldn't be one or the other.

Luckily many of the bigger companies use vehicles to this specification, but London is probably the worst example here.

 

[Qwerty133]

One thing I wish is that operators order vehicles with separate wheelchair and pushchair bays. With the exception of rural routes using tiny vehicles, it really shouldn't be one or the other.

Luckily many of the bigger companies use vehicles to this specification, but London is probably the worst example here.

The problem when they do that is it significantly reduces the number of seats accessible without needing to climb a step which impacts on accessibility for many elderly and ambulant disabled people.

 

[danbarjon]

Go North Esst operate an Easy Access taxi guarantee. If they cant take the wheelchair they’ll order you a taxi through control to your end destination.

Seen it happen quite a lot of times, mainly due to massive buggies laden with shopping blocking the spaces

Having had issues with Go North East's ex London buses I can confirm they do not order you a taxi. Instead they say "due to the frequency of the bus route there would not be a point in ordering one on this occasion" the bus service was every 30 minutes, I managed to get an Uber Access booked and arrived within 10 minutes. So in my opinion their policy is lies but oh well.

 

[TUC]

It seems a very odd, selfish person who refuses to fold up a pushchair so that a wheelchair user can get on the bus. Yes, you need to take the child on your knee, and carry them and the pushchair off the bus, but plenty of us who are parents have done that over the years.

 

[jon0844]

It seems a very odd, selfish person who refuses to fold up a pushchair so that a wheelchair user can get on the bus. Yes, you need to take the child on your knee, and carry them and the pushchair off the bus, but plenty of us who are parents have done that over the years.

When we used a buggy, if a bus started to get busy - it was folded before anyone asked. If we approached a stop with a wheelchair (you can see ahead from the area) then it was folded. Again, not needing to be asked.

Same for the Underground and trains in general.

It wasn't difficult.

 

[mangad]

When we used a buggy, if a bus started to get busy - it was folded before anyone asked. If we approached a stop with a wheelchair (you can see ahead from the area) then it was folded. Again, not needing to be asked.

Same for the Underground and trains in general.

It wasn't difficult.

It's more of a challenge to fold a buggy if you are by yourself and have a baby that needs holding. Most buggies are not easy to fold one handed. Arguably most buggies are not designed with public transport in mind full stop!

 

[LordCreed]

It's more of a challenge to fold a buggy if you are by yourself and have a baby that needs holding. Most buggies are not easy to fold one handed. Arguably most buggies are not designed with public transport in mind full stop!

And even harder if you're on your own, travelling with a baby and another young child like I do.

Obviously I'd fold the pushchair if a wheelchair needed the bay (and have done on several occasions), but it is difficult especially when the youngest is asleep.

Luckily my local operator has a separate pushchair bay on all vehicles except one batch.

 

[TUC]

It's more of a challenge to fold a buggy if you are by yourself and have a baby that needs holding. Most buggies are not easy to fold one handed. Arguably most buggies are not designed with public transport in mind full stop!

It's a challenge , but it can be done, and used to be done by parents regularly. We had a cheap 2nd buggy that we used just for bus travel and which folded up umberella-like, making it easier to manoeuvre.

 

[LBMPSB]

Simply, the Driver or even the company should insist that any "buggies" must be of the folding type and be folded before boarding the bus. Seems that some people just do not think about anyone else but themselves. But unfortunately it is the way of a lot of people in Britain these days. Just looking at the train I am traveling on at the moment, there is a guy with the soles of his shoes up on the edge of the seat in front of him. There is another guy who obviously has just been to B&Q and has loaded up one of the seating bays with his materials whilst sittting in another seating bay, and the unattended bicycle against the doors on the opening side!

 

[mangad]

It's a challenge , but it can be done, and used to be done by parents regularly. We had a cheap 2nd buggy that we used just for bus travel and which folded up umberella-like, making it easier to manoeuvre.

It can be done. I always did it when needed. My other half tended to use a back carrier because it was far easier than struggling with with it. But let's not pretend it's always going completely easy for parents to do it, especially when one parent is travelling with their children. Hey, on a crowded London bus, you'd be lucky to even know there was a wheelchair user at waiting at the bus stop. And as for where you put the folded buggy given buses have so little storage space these days.

 

[Towers]

Simply, the Driver or even the company should insist that any "buggies" must be of the folding type and be folded before boarding the bus. Seems that some people just do not think about anyone else but themselves. But unfortunately it is the way of a lot of people in Britain these days. Just looking at the train I am traveling on at the moment, there is a guy with the soles of his shoes up on the edge of the seat in front of him. There is another guy who obviously has just been to B&Q and has loaded up one of the seating bays with his materials whilst sittting in another seating bay, and the unattended bicycle against the doors on the opening side!

In practice this would only serve to cause significant delays as the driver argues the toss at every second or third stop. The majority of bus journeys are made without need of the accessible bay by a wheelchair user, and it does make sense for other passengers to be able to use them in those circumstances. There is no ideal answer here, bus drivers are not bouncers and kicking small children and their parents off of the bus isn’t a great look either. The ‘taxi policy’ mentioned above seems a good compromise, although not in the case where a taxi was refused on a 30 minute frequency.

 

[Spsf3232]

Unfortunately that's the world we live in today! I totally understand there is reasons sometimes that you don't want to fold it for example the baby is asleep. We all know never wake a sleeping baby! I will usually ask them to fold the buggy and if I can see it being a struggle will offer help and we can all work together to get people home

 

[jon0844]

It can be done. I always did it when needed. My other half tended to use a back carrier because it was far easier than struggling with with it. But let's not pretend it's always going completely easy for parents to do it, especially when one parent is travelling with their children. Hey, on a crowded London bus, you'd be lucky to even know there was a wheelchair user at waiting at the bus stop. And as for where you put the folded buggy given buses have so little storage space these days.

I should perhaps follow up by saying that a lone parent on a bus with more than one child in a buggy would be somewhat harder than having just one child.

 

[londonbridge]

I saw a story on social media once along the lines of a woman with a buggy who arrived at the bus stop and found two other women with buggies already waiting, so she walked back to the previous stop and boarded there. When the bus reached her original stop, sure enough the driver said he could only take one of the two others that had already been waiting. She was then slammed online as being selfish, a queue jumper, a see you next Tuesday, etc.

 

[75A]

I'd congratulate her for using initiative.

 

[Typhoon]

The general points, particularly regarding the taxi alternative, are well made but there may be very good reasons why this driver is unable to persuade the mother to fold the buggy - @jon0844 made an excellent point in #24, double buggies are far from unknown, equally there may be one or more young children as well as the buggy (#18). it is also possible that the baby has disabilities which would make holding it more difficult. As far as the driver goes, he might have already tried to get the mother to fold the buggy, unsuccessfully. I sympathise with the OP but the driver is in an awkward position; that he got out of the cab did show that there was concern. It is alright suggesting that the bus waits until the buggy is folded but that may result in disquiet among other passengers, the last thing that is needed is one of them taking matters into their own hands. Drivers have a difficult enough job as it is without additional grievance, they clearly can't physically intervene or not discourage others from doing so. Even if it was the law that buggies had to give way to wheelchairs, what does the driver do? Wait for police? The wheelchair user will probably got on one of the buses that had pulled up behind by the time they turn up.

Edit

I saw a story on social media once along the lines of a woman with a buggy who arrived at the bus stop and found two other women with buggies already waiting, so she walked back to the previous stop and boarded there. When the bus reached her original stop, sure enough the driver said he could only take one of the two others that had already been waiting. She was then slammed online as being selfish, a queue jumper, a see you next Tuesday, etc.

She was running the risk of a bus turning up while she walked from one stop to the previous one so, as @75A writes, she was using her initiative and it may have rebounded on her. Equally she doesn't know that there may be mothers with buggies already on when she gets to the previous stop but who get off at the stop she left.

I'm afraid the responses are the very reason I avoid most forms of social media.

 

[RogerOut]

Simply, the Driver or even the company should insist that any "buggies" must be of the folding type and be folded before boarding the bus. Seems that some people just do not think about anyone else but themselves. But unfortunately it is the way of a lot of people in Britain these days. Just looking at the train I am traveling on at the moment, there is a guy with the soles of his shoes up on the edge of the seat in front of him. There is another guy who obviously has just been to B&Q and has loaded up one of the seating bays with his materials whilst sittting in another seating bay, and the unattended bicycle against the doors on the opening side!

The driver can’t be expected to enforce that unless it’s a TFL rule which I believe it isn’t . You don’t know if the buggy folds or not, as a driver.

When I worked in London, I don’t remember having a pushchair refuse to move for a wheelchair. But if they did I would politely use the announcement followed by a polite request on the intercom.

If that didn’t work I’d simply call Ibus for instructions, stating that I’d done everything I could reasonably do to ask the buggy user to move.

Not much else a driver can do.

I suppose the whole bus would by now hate the buggy user for being so selfish and for holding up the entire bus. You’ll probably find that the buggy user would be secretly filmed or have their photo taken and posted on social media for further embarrassment to them.

 

[richw]

I saw a story on social media once along the lines of a woman with a buggy who arrived at the bus stop and found two other women with buggies already waiting, so she walked back to the previous stop and boarded there. When the bus reached her original stop, sure enough the driver said he could only take one of the two others that had already been waiting. She was then slammed online as being selfish, a queue jumper, a see you next Tuesday, etc.

Used to get this on a service that passed a college, at busy times some of the smarter students would walk the 1/4 mile to the previous stop to avoid the queues and possibly a full bus being unable to load everyone. I call it initiative

 

[Busaholic]

Used to get this on a service that passed a college, at busy times some of the smarter students would walk the 1/4 mile to the previous stop to avoid the queues and possibly a full bus being unable to load everyone. I call it initiative

Indeed, but if every student did that it would have achieved nothing, and in any case we are talking about a 'level playing field' in your example. The whole point of the Disability legislation is to let the disabled person achieve the level playing field as of right and without having to make a song and dance about it. Not every wheelchair user has the personality of the redoubtable Doug Pauley and would hate confrontation. It is one, but not the most important, reason why I won't contemplate using a wheelchair until I absolutely have to.