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Refused Off-Peak Day Return

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joncombe

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This does seem to be a bit of an issue. I came across a similar issue a couple of years ago when trying to take a train home after midnight. I know that the "railway day" generally runs until 4am so peak prices should not apply before that time. I was trying to get home from Heathrow Airport and my flight was delayed departing and got further delayed on arrival as it was windy and had to abort the first landing, go around and then wait in a holding pattern The result was I missed the last National Express coach so had opted to go home by train via London instead, knowing I still had time to make the last train and that would be significantly cheaper than a taxi.

However on arrival at Waterloo the ticket machines were not letting me buy an off peak ticker or use my Network Card, only offering peak fares. Fortunately the ticket office was still open so going there the member of staff was very helpful and when I asked for a single ticket quoted me the expected price. It was only when I looked at the ticket I realised they'd actually issued me a ticket for the day before (since it was just after midnight)! Of course that was I believe the correct ticket here as I believe it's valid until 4am the next day and I was making a single journey so no issues about the return portion being for the wrong date. I was grateful to them as they obviously understood the issue I was having and were very helpful. However I've no idea what the official policy here is and whether the staff member did the right thing by selling a ticket dated the previous day, but it is a similar issue in that the ticket machines were unable to sell me the fare I wanted, which was valid at that time.

In fact the fact the "railway day" generally ends around 4am does cause some confusion. The SWR timetables for Monday - Friday show trains after midnight with codes like SO or SX even though it's the weekday timetable. The reason is because these trains run at different times after midnight on a Friday (which is of course then Saturday), but they are still shown on the Monday - Friday timetable and by way of comparison the train times for Saturday don't show the departures in the early hours of the morning, but only those from about 4:30am.

There are similar issues when the peak period ends at 10am and you want to take a train at (say) 10:01am but the machine won't sell off peak tickets until 10am, leaving insufficient time to buy the ticket and get to the right platform. I know you can solve some of these issues if you know in advance by buying a ticket on your phone for example, but that isn't always possible.
 
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robbeech

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Slightly OT with regard to Network Railcard but on topic of the railway day. One of the TV programs (Channel 5 perhaps) showed some footage of gateline staff refusing literally dozens of passengers at a gateline on the GWR line, it might have been at Reading because they'd bought day returns and it was after midnight. I meant to look at the time if there was a special "evening" ticket that expired at midnight but i did find it odd at the time. Very smug attitude iirc too. It's entirely possible they were just wrong but i'm sure they wouldn't have broadcast a member of staff rejecting dozens of valid tickets so i can only assume there is a ticket i don't know about. Sadly i can't remember the flow.
 

Bletchleyite

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Slightly OT with regard to Network Railcard but on topic of the railway day. One of the TV programs (Channel 5 perhaps) showed some footage of gateline staff refusing literally dozens of passengers at a gateline on the GWR line, it might have been at Reading because they'd bought day returns and it was after midnight. I meant to look at the time if there was a special "evening" ticket that expired at midnight but i did find it odd at the time. Very smug attitude iirc too. It's entirely possible they were just wrong but i'm sure they wouldn't have broadcast a member of staff rejecting dozens of valid tickets so i can only assume there is a ticket i don't know about. Sadly i can't remember the flow.

I half recall it was actually after 0430. Paddington to Reading operates all night, or did.
 

maniacmartin

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I watched the TV program robbeech is referring to and thinking that staff were just plain wrong and they didn't think to check this before broadcasting their smug telling off so-called fare evaders on TV (who actually had valid tickets). I recall they specifically said the tickets aren't valid after midnight
 

Paul Kelly

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Slightly OT with regard to Network Railcard but on topic of the railway day. One of the TV programs (Channel 5 perhaps) showed some footage of gateline staff refusing literally dozens of passengers at a gateline on the GWR line, it might have been at Reading because they'd bought day returns and it was after midnight. I meant to look at the time if there was a special "evening" ticket that expired at midnight but i did find it odd at the time. Very smug attitude iirc too. It's entirely possible they were just wrong but i'm sure they wouldn't have broadcast a member of staff rejecting dozens of valid tickets so i can only assume there is a ticket i don't know about.
I think possibly the rules were changed and nobody thought to tell the staff checking tickets. There are definitely old forum threads about the need to buy an off-peak ticket dated the day before if making a journey in the early hours. I think this has changed relatively recently.

Brfares.com is not an official website; the official website, linked above by myself, says valid for travel at or after 10:00.
To be fair, BR Fares also says that too, as quoted above by robbeech in post #16. I'm not sure the data is mean to say valid before 04:30. I think someone may have changed the data and not thought it all through properly. I've just had a quick look and at least in 2017 the data still said the Network Railcard was not valid to depart on an outward journey 0001-0959 and on a return journey 0230-0959.
 
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kieron

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The National Rail Enquiries web site (another official one) states:

Network Railcard is not valid between 04:30 and 09:59 Monday to Friday and no discount will be applied on journeys to start between those times, unless easements apply to your journey.

Their planner applies the restriction to journeys which start in that period, or which involve a change of train during it. It also applies some restrictions which bear no relation to the displayed terms. For example, it doesn't show discounted tickets between Worcs Parkway and Heathrow at all.

I suppose the web sites and planner data are maintained by two or three different sets of people who rarely talk to one another.

If I was in iamthekareem's situation, I would definitely complain.
 
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This has implications for bus and tube as well. If you buy a Network Railcard-discounted Off Peak Day Travelcard from Reading taking the 0018, can you then ride around on Night buses until 0430?
 

RJ

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The National Rail Enquiries web site (another official one) states:



Their planner applies the restriction to journeys which start in that period, or which involve a change of train during it. It also applies some restrictions which bear no relation to the displayed terms. For example, it doesn't show discounted tickets between Worcs Parkway and Heathrow at all.

I suppose the web sites and planner data are maintained by two or three different sets of people who rarely talk to one another.

If I was in iamthekareem's situation, I would definitely complain.

Is the correct answer. I’d have just sold the OP the off peak ticket with the Network Railcard discount. Life is too short to irritate customers with unfavourable interpretation of the rules.

As a ticket seller I’m not supporting the viewpoint of not allowing that discount.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is the correct answer. I’d have just sold the OP the off peak ticket with the Network Railcard discount. Life is too short to irritate customers with unfavourable interpretation of the rules.

As a ticket seller I’m not supporting the viewpoint of not allowing that discount.

But then if they later met an RPI who wrote them up for prosecution...
 
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