Refused travel at Waterloo with Travelcard

[MikeWM]

I was just blocked from travelling from Waterloo to Wandsworth Town on a Cambridge to London super off peak travelcard (GA only).

The gates on 21-22 wouldn’t accept my ticket, and the barrier staff (all 3 of them) were insistent that I couldn’t travel between 4 and 7pm as I had a ‘super off peak ticket’. Any attempt at explaining that this referred to the journey to/from London fell on predictably deaf ears.

Sadly the ticket office then backed them up, telling me that this is what they’ve been told by management, and just giving me a typical complaint form.

I’m right to be fairly annoyed by this, am I not? What would be the best course of action to hopefully prevent this happening again?

 

[gazthomas]

As I understand it the Travelcard element of your ticket should be valid any time after 9.30am.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46575.aspx

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is unquestionably valid. Certainly pursue your complaint, including for a refund of any fare paid if you did pay to travel.

 

[furlong]

You could report the incident both to the ORR as a breach of the consumer regulations and to the DfT as a breach of their franchise agreement. The number of staff you claim were unaware of the basic validity of what is a very common type of ticket might make this particularly worthy of an external investigation - how many people might have paid for unnecessary new tickets?

 

[Hadders]

Unquestionably valid. This needs taking up with SWR. If staff have genuinely been told this by management (rather than making up their own rules) then it is totally unacceptable.

Staff making their own rules up isn’t acceptable either.

 

[bb21]

I was just blocked from travelling from Waterloo to Wandsworth Town on a Cambridge to London super off peak travelcard (GA only).

The gates on 21-22 wouldn’t accept my ticket, and the barrier staff (all 3 of them) were insistent that I couldn’t travel between 4 and 7pm as I had a ‘super off peak ticket’. Any attempt at explaining that this referred to the journey to/from London fell on predictably deaf ears.

Sadly the ticket office then backed them up, telling me that this is what they’ve been told by management, and just giving me a typical complaint form.

I’m right to be fairly annoyed by this, am I not? What would be the best course of action to hopefully prevent this happening again?

Could you PM me the names of the individuals involved please?

Did you have to pay extra to travel?

 

[GarethW]

Scarcely believable, that has to be just about the worst ever refusal of a valid ticket.

Virtually everyone in the London area knows the validity of a Travelcard.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought this was all hammered out when SWT first introduced their super off peak, and it was quickly established that travelcards were still valid at the relevant time.

Mind you there was also a time when barrier staff were refusing any travelcard which mentioned a “TOC only” restriction, it was usually Southern that got highlighted by posts here. The GA only restriction was possibly the basic cause of the barrier not opening, although I thought this had been reported fixed?

 

[MikeWM]

Could you PM me the names of the individuals involved please?

Unfortunately I was so surprised and astonished by the experience that I didn’t think until afterwards to take names.

Did you have to pay extra to travel?

No, as I instead took the Tube to Vauxhall and picked up a later train from there. (My ticket was ‘seek assistance’ at Vauxhall gateline too, but then I noticed the gateline was open anyway...) No problem getting out at Wandsworth.

(In retrospect, there were of course quicker options, but I wasn’t expecting to have to think of them!)

I was 25 minutes delayed by doing so though. In this case it didn’t matter all that much, fortunately, but I wouldn’t want someone to have the same experience when it is more important.

 

[MikeWM]

I’m really not sure where to take this first. Should I fill in a ‘How did we do?’ form first and see what response I get, or is something a little more dramatic justified from the off?

I’m not surprised that the three barrier staff agreed with each other - that’s human nature, unfortunately. What did strike me was how similar the response I got from each of them - basically ‘your ticket says offpeak so you can’t travel between 4 and 7’ - can’t remember the exact form of words but it was oddly similar between them.

Then to get again a very similar form of words from the ticket office, and on querying it a comment along the lines of ‘this is what our management have said to say’, makes me rather suspicious that this may be some company line.

(and yes, I asked the ticket office ‘cold’ what restrictions there were on the ticket. I didn’t mention I’d already been turned away at the ticket gates until after he’d also told me the ticket wasn’t valid between 4 and 7)

 

[bb21]

I’m really not sure where to take this first. Should I fill in a ‘How did we do?’ form first and see what response I get, or is something a little more dramatic justified from the off?

TBH if you didn't catch any names, probably not a lot you can do. Feel free to lodge a complaint but don't hold your breath.

Then to get again a very similar form of words from the ticket office, and on querying it a comment along the lines of ‘this is what our management have said to say’, makes me rather suspicious that this may be some company line.

(and yes, I asked the ticket office ‘cold’ what restrictions there were on the ticket. I didn’t mention I’d already been turned away at the ticket gates until after he’d also told me the ticket wasn’t valid between 4 and 7)

Could you PM me an image of your ticket if that's OK. I will get a contact to see what he could do. It is unfortunately always going to be more effective with a name and a more targeted effort but we will see. It is most disappointing to hear your experience.

 

[MikeWM]

TBH if you didn't catch any names, probably not a lot you can do. Feel free to lodge a complaint but don't hold your breath.

No, I won't expect too much! I'll be interested in the reply anyway, so I'll probably start with the 'how did we do?' form (err... not terribly well) and take it from there.

Could you PM me an image of your ticket if that's OK.

No problem - PM on the way.

It is most disappointing to hear your experience.

I think I'm most concerned that the ticket office repeated - without any prompting or clues from me - the same wrong information as the ticket barrier staff. To me that means it seems likely something has (recently?) been communicated from above - either poorly, incompletely, or just plain wrong. If so, I'm keen to try to get that rectified ASAP so that no-one else has the same issue.

 

[greyman42]

If staff are just repeating something that has been communicated from above, then surely some of the more experienced/informed staff would know the communication was wrong. Would they then not inform the person responsible for the communication that there has been an error, and would that person then correct the error by sending out another communication stating that the tickets are valid?

 

[Silver Cobra]

Here's something useful for the next time you're in this situation. I found the page on SWR's website with information about Super Off-Peak fares, and the key bit of info that helps prove that you can use a Super Off-Peak travelcard at that time. They can't deny what is on their own official website.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/find-the-best-fare/weekend-super-off-peak

Travel towards London Waterloo:

• Weekend Super Off-Peak tickets are not valid on trains arriving into London Waterloo and any station in London Zones 1-6 between 09:31 and 11:59.

Travel from London Waterloo:

• Weekend Super Off-Peak tickets are not valid if you board a train departing London Waterloo between 04:30 and 10:59 or 16:00 and 18:30; Vauxhall between 04:30 and 11:05 or 16:03 and 18:35; Clapham Junction between 04:30 and 11:05 or 16:09 and 18:40.

• If you have a Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard and you are travelling wholly within the London Zones 1-6 area, these restrictions do not apply.

I also assume that the issue of the barriers rejecting the ticket is specific to those at platforms 21/22. On Sunday 18th March I used a Biggleswade to London Zones 1-6 Super Off-Peak day travelcard to travel on an SWR service from Waterloo to Wimbledon during the morning 'restriction time', and it was accepted by the barriers at platform 8.

 

[greyman42]

This obviously been the case, then how do we have barrier staff AND ticket office staff telling passengers otherwise?

 

[ainsworth74]

This obviously been the case, then how do we have barrier staff AND ticket office staff telling passengers otherwise?

Because TOC retail training is abysmal will no doubt play a large part.

 

[swt_passenger]

Shame their isn’t a similar page to that linked above specific to the weekday version, but this page gives details for all fare types:

Super Off-Peak – Weekdays

Travel towards London Waterloo:

• Not valid on trains arriving into London Waterloo and any station in London Zones 1-6 between 04:30 and 11:59.

Travel from London Waterloo:

• Not valid on trains departing London Waterloo between 16:00 and 19:00; Vauxhall between 16:04 and 19:04; Clapham Junction between 16:07 and 19:09.

If you have Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard and your journey is wholly within the London Zones 1-6 area, these restrictions do not apply.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/find-the-best-fare/ticket-types

Just in case staff try and make out weekday rules are different...

 

[Hadders]

If staff are just repeating something that has been communicated from above, then surely some of the more experienced/informed staff would know the communication was wrong. Would they then not inform the person responsible for the communication that there has been an error, and would that person then correct the error by sending out another communication stating that the tickets are valid?

Management often don’t understand the restrictions themselves. I was refused entry to a train at Kings Cross during the evening peak by a member of VTEC staff manning the barriers despite my Off Peak ticket being perfectly valid for the journey I was making. A manager was called who also claimed my ticket wasn’t valid as I needed a Peak Ticket to travel at that times and went on to say that the barriers are intelligently programmed to reject tickets that aren’t valid.

This was witnessed by several forum members. Eventually I managed to blag by way through to make my journey.

Even worse was the reply from VTEC customer services who also erroneously claimed the ticket wasn’t valid and the letter to David Horne that despite a reply promising an investigation and reply yielded absolutely nothing.

With this sort of thing happens no wonder passengers are confused.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Management often don’t understand the restrictions themselves. I was refused entry to a train at Kings Cross during the evening peak by a member of VTEC staff manning the barriers despite my Off Peak ticket being perfectly valid for the journey I was making. A manager was called who also claimed my ticket wasn’t valid as I needed a Peak Ticket to travel at that times and went on to say that the barriers are intelligently programmed to reject tickets that aren’t valid.

This was witnessed by several forum members. Eventually I managed to blag by way through to make my journey.

Even worse was the reply from VTEC customer services who also erroneously claimed the ticket wasn’t valid and the letter to David Horne that despite a reply promising an investigation and reply yielded absolutely nothing.

With this sort of thing happens no wonder passengers are confused.

They are apart from the barriers at Kings Cross which are basically updated via GTR as VTEC only have the one set of barriers from that supplier.

 

[Hadders]

They are apart from the barriers at Kings Cross which are basically updated via GTR as VTEC only have the one set of barriers from that supplier.

I'd still expect a manager responsible for the gate line at Kings Cross to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of ticket restrictions.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'd still expect a manager responsible for the gate line at Kings Cross to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of ticket restrictions.

Indeed.

 

[Paul Kelly]

went on to say that the barriers are intelligently programmed to reject tickets that aren’t valid

No matter how intelligently the barriers have been programmed, they can't make decisions on the basis of information that isn't there on the magnetic stripe. This means neither the restriction code nor the ticket type code (i.e. CDR, SVR, ODT etc.) are available for them to make decisions on. In relation to the ticket type all they have on the magnetic stripe is the first two characters of the CAPRI code, which is often the same for many different ticket types, e.g. various types of Off-Peak Day Return, Off-Peak 1st Class Return, TOC-specfic day returns like VTEC's GDR Super Off-Peak Day Returns all have the same CAPRI code of BDY.

 

[bb21]

If anyone has any further issues at Waterloo, please make a note of the name of the individuals involved, and send me the details. I will then pass them onto a contact for resolving. Thanks.

 

[greyman42]

I'd still expect a manager responsible for the gate line at Kings Cross to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of ticket restrictions.

How would you get a position as a manager with gate line responsibilities without having an excellent knowledge of ticket restrictions?

 

[MikeWM]

Thanks to all for your advice and help in this one.

I’ll let you all know what SWR say if/when they reply to the complaint form...

 

[sheff1]

How would you get a position as a manager with gate line responsibilities without having an excellent knowledge of ticket restrictions?

Presumably the same way that you can get a position as a booking office manager without having an excellent (or in some cases, even a middling) knowledge of ticket restrictions. An ability to shamelessly back up staff who are lying to customers is clearly an advantage.

The case in the OP is the sort of thing that should definitely fall within the scope of the new ombudsman if/when they commence operation.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Presumably the same way that you can get a position as a booking office manager without having an excellent (or in some cases, even a middling) knowledge of ticket restrictions. An ability to shamelessly back up staff who are lying to customers is clearly an advantage.

The case in the OP is the sort of thing that should definitely fall within the scope of the new ombudsman if/when they commence operation.

Not unusual at all unfortunately

 

[Clip]

Presumably the same way that you can get a position as a booking office manager without having an excellent (or in some cases, even a middling) knowledge of ticket restrictions.

You dont need an excellent nor encyclopedic knowledge of ticketing matters to become a manager of a booking office - indeed when i started out running 20 odd stations i wasnt such an expert either and still am not after doing it for many years - what a good manager/supervisor of a booking office must possess is the ability to use their head and if unsure then to look it up - its not that hard to actually do when they have everything at their fingertips inside the booking office. However

An ability to shamelessly back up staff who are lying to customers is clearly an advantage.

This ^^ should never happen due to what i outlined above.

The case in the OP is the sort of thing that should definitely fall within the scope of the new ombudsman if/when they commence operation.

I believe they have already started up

 

[Haywain]

I'd still expect a manager responsible for the gate line at Kings Cross to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of ticket restrictions.

I'm afraid I would not expect that.

 

[Haywain]

No matter how intelligently the barriers have been programmed, they can't make decisions on the basis of information that isn't there on the magnetic stripe. This means neither the restriction code nor the ticket type code (i.e. CDR, SVR, ODT etc.) are available for them to make decisions on. In relation to the ticket type all they have on the magnetic stripe is the first two characters of the CAPRI code, which is often the same for many different ticket types, e.g. various types of Off-Peak Day Return, Off-Peak 1st Class Return, TOC-specfic day returns like VTEC's GDR Super Off-Peak Day Returns all have the same CAPRI code of BDY.

While not perfect, the gating logic uses the CAPRI code in conjunction with the origin/destinationto establish which set of time restrictions to apply. It does not simply decide on the basis of the CAPRI code alone.