Regional services in Wales

[Anonymous10]

I personally think that many services could be expanded in rural areas and built up areas with relative ease in Pembrokeshire we have a two hourly service and 3 trains on a Sunday if a second platform was redone most of it is still standing a hourly service could be provided even if it was only for peek times eg 6-9 3-6 and if there was a issue with timings it should be of no more than 5 minutes fixed by holding in Carmarthen or whitland

What do you guys think

 

[LUSOwner]

Are you particularly thinking about Milford Haven, Fishguard Harbour or Pembroke Dock? Or just the three overall?

 

[Anonymous10]

Are you particularly thinking about Milford Haven, Fishguard Harbour or Pembroke Dock? Or just the three overall?

Pembroke Dock mainly as it's my local station but all them I don't know anything about Milford or Fishguard tho as never caught a train from them

 

[LUSOwner]

Pembroke Dock mainly as it's my local station but all them I don't know anything about Milford or Fishguard tho as never caught a train from them

Ah, ok

 

[Anonymous10]

Ah, ok

Ah, ok

If you have experience on those stations I'd be happy to hear your thoughts or any station in Wales tbh

 

[Parallel]

I don’t have much knowledge of the Pembrokeshire lines but it would be good if they could do something with the northern and southern ends of the Heart of Wales line.

From my experience, these parts of the lines are the busiest and 1tp4h isn’t really enough to encourage growth.

The northern part could do with at least one train per two hours which I think would be workable with the current infrastructure and the passing loop at Knighton. Southbound, 1tp2h between Llandovery and Swansea (or if that’s not competitive due to buses, it could run via the District Line to Port Talbot or Bridgend if the infrastructure is available? - Bridgend has a terminal platform too so it would be out the way of the main line during layovers.)

 

[Anonymous10]

I don’t have much knowledge of the Pembrokeshire lines but it would be good if they could do something with the northern and southern ends of the Heart of Wales line.

From my experience, these parts of the lines are the busiest and 1tp4h isn’t really enough to encourage growth.

The northern part could do with at least one train per two hours which I think would be workable with the current infrastructure and the passing loop at Knighton. Southbound, 1tp2h between Llandovery and Swansea (or if that’s not competitive due to buses, it could run via the District Line to Port Talbot or Bridgend if the infrastructure is available? - Bridgend has a terminal platform too so it would be out the way of the main line during layovers.)

That would be good tbh a 2 hourly service is ok but to really encourage growth which I think is possible a hourly peek service is ideal which could be done as I said but yh those areas also need it

 

[clagmonster]

To run hourly to Pembroke, you would likely need to build a new passing loop somewhere around Pembroke, as it is unlikely you could reliably run a train from Tenby to Pembroke Dock and back within an hour in time to pass the next train. I would imagine that there will be a suitable location for this, however it will be costly.

 

[VT 390]

I don’t have much knowledge of the Pembrokeshire lines but it would be good if they could do something with the northern and southern ends of the Heart of Wales line.

From my experience, these parts of the lines are the busiest and 1tp4h isn’t really enough to encourage growth.

The northern part could do with at least one train per two hours which I think would be workable with the current infrastructure and the passing loop at Knighton. Southbound, 1tp2h between Llandovery and Swansea (or if that’s not competitive due to buses, it could run via the District Line to Port Talbot or Bridgend if the infrastructure is available? - Bridgend has a terminal platform too so it would be out the way of the main line during layovers.)

I agree that a service at least every 2 hours on the Heart of Wales line would be good but if you ran some towards Port Talbot direct would it not be better to extend them to Cardiff because then you would not need to change the track layout at Bridgend (to access the west facing bay platform) and more people are likely to want to go to Cardiff than other places along that route.

 

[VT 390]

To run hourly to Pembroke, you would likely need to build a new passing loop somewhere around Pembroke, as it is unlikely you could reliably run a train from Tenby to Pembroke Dock and back within an hour in time to pass the next train. I would imagine that there will be a suitable location for this, however it will be costly.

Would it be possible to have an hourly service with just the passing loop at Tenby if every other train missed Lamphey, Manorbier and Penally out so that they would be slightly quicker at that section?
If this worked but did not allow much turnaround time at Pembroke Dock could it have extra time waiting at Tenby or Carmarthen so it is reliable.

 

[anthony263]

Would it be possible to have an hourly service with just the passing loop at Tenby if every other train missed Lamphey, Manorbier and Penally out so that they would be slightly quicker at that section?
If this worked but did not allow much turnaround time at Pembroke Dock could it have extra time waiting at Tenby or Carmarthen so it is reliable.

It's the level crossings west of Ten y thst slow down services. Youd need to reinstate the passing loop between Whitland and Tenvy for a hourly service

 

[Anonymous10]

To run hourly to Pembroke, you would likely need to build a new passing loop somewhere around Pembroke, as it is unlikely you could reliably run a train from Tenby to Pembroke Dock and back within an hour in time to pass the next train. I would imagine that there will be a suitable location for this, however it will be costly.

Easiest is to hold the train in Pembroke Dock and have that doubt tracked at the platform and hold in Tenby as current till next is in

 

[Anonymous10]

Would it be possible to have an hourly service with just the passing loop at Tenby if every other train missed Lamphey, Manorbier and Penally out so that they would be slightly quicker at that section?
If this worked but did not allow much turnaround time at Pembroke Dock could it have extra time waiting at Tenby or Carmarthen so it is reliable.

I think that's a good idea Pembroke Dock is a easy candidate to have a second platform and I think it's the towns down to Swansea or Cardiff that need hourly or maybe they can scrape stopping at lamphey but idk

 

[Anonymous10]

It's the level crossings west of Ten y thst slow down services. Youd need to reinstate the passing loop between Whitland and Tenvy for a hourly service

I thought given the Tenby loop and the dual Pembroke Dock platform they should be able to go from Pembroke Dock to Whitland in the time but yh I see why

 

[greatvoyager]

I think that's a good idea Pembroke Dock is a easy candidate to have a second platform and I think it's the towns down to Swansea or Cardiff that need hourly or maybe they can scrape stopping at lamphey but idk

I agree, Pembroke Dock would benefit from that.

 

[Anonymous10]

I agree, Pembroke Dock would benefit from that.

Thing is if it was only a hourly peek the area would

 

[greatvoyager]

Thing is if it was only a hourly peek the area would

I still believe it would be a good thing.

 

[Anonymous10]

I still believe it would be a good thing.

Ye it would ok might mean more 153s at first but it still would be better

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm afraid I fail to see how reinstating a second platform at Pembroke Dock would help provide an hourly service on the branch.

It's a half hour journey between Tenby and Pembroke Dock (30~33m down, and 28~29 minutes in the up direction, per the public timetable). If you want an hourly service from Tenby toward Pembroke Dock, the train heading toward Pembroke at (say) 07:30 will need to be off the single-track by 08:30 to make room for the next train. If we accept that there's not enough time to head down to Pembroke Dock, turn around, and get back to Tenby reliably within the hour, are you thinking of having the unit "step back" an hour by using the second platform at Pembroke Dock?

If so, then that 07:30 train from Tenby would pull into Pembroke Dock around 0800. The single track would be occupied by the next (08:30 ex-Tenby) train from 08:30 until 09:00. If you leave at 09:00 on the mark, you'll be at Tenby just before the 09:30 to Pembroke Dock is due to occupy the single track. But what if one of those trains was running late?

Stepping back one hour at Pembroke Dock allows you to plenty of turnaround time, but it doesn't deal with the issue of recovery time, which is needed to deal with late arrivals of incoming trains. And it means you have a train (and staff) sitting idle in Pembroke Dock for an hour, only to be replaced by another idle train.

I agree with @anthony263 that the three level crossings west of Tenby which have stop boards (Beavers Hill, Manorbier Newton and Llanion) are of greater importance. At each of these, the trains has to decelerate (from a linespeed of 50mph) and come to a full stop, before moving off again. It's almost the equivalent of having three extra stations on the line (except the guard doesn't need to release the doors)!

If we take a guesstimate that roughly a minute and a half is lost at each of these stop boards, then closing or automating these crossings would save five minutes each way, or ten minutes on the round trip. That's enough time for crew to change ends, and a little bit of recovery time too. It might be prudent to hold inbound (down) trains at Whitland or Carmarthen for a few minutes' recovery time too.

(There is also the point that the single track between Tenby and Whitland is timed for half an hour each way as well, so there's not much wiggle-space there. You'd also need some time to exchange tokens at Tenby and Whitland. The replacement of 153s with 170s in a few years' time may help with that, as the timetable could be rewritten for a faster-accelerating unit.)

 

[Anonymous10]

I'm afraid I fail to see how reinstating a second platform at Pembroke Dock would help provide an hourly service on the branch.

It's a half hour journey between Tenby and Pembroke Dock (30~33m down, and 28~29 minutes in the up direction, per the public timetable). If you want an hourly service from Tenby toward Pembroke Dock, the train heading toward Pembroke at (say) 07:30 will need to be off the single-track by 08:30 to make room for the next train. If we accept that there's not enough time to head down to Pembroke Dock, turn around, and get back to Tenby reliably within the hour, are you thinking of having the unit "step back" an hour by using the second platform at Pembroke Dock?

If so, then that 07:30 train from Tenby would pull into Pembroke Dock around 0800. The single track would be occupied by the next (08:30 ex-Tenby) train from 08:30 until 09:00. If you leave at 09:00 on the mark, you'll be at Tenby just before the 09:30 to Pembroke Dock is due to occupy the single track. But what if one of those trains was running late?

Stepping back one hour at Pembroke Dock allows you to plenty of turnaround time, but it doesn't deal with the issue of recovery time, which is needed to deal with late arrivals of incoming trains. And it means you have a train (and staff) sitting idle in Pembroke Dock for an hour, only to be replaced by another idle train.

I agree with @anthony263 that the three level crossings west of Tenby which have stop boards (Beavers Hill, Manorbier Newton and Llanion) are of greater importance. At each of these, the trains has to decelerate (from a linespeed of 50mph) and come to a full stop, before moving off again. It's almost the equivalent of having three extra stations on the line (except the guard doesn't need to release the doors)!

If we take a guesstimate that roughly a minute and a half is lost at each of these stop boards, then closing or automating these crossings would save five minutes each way, or ten minutes on the round trip. That's enough time for crew to change ends, and a little bit of recovery time too. It might be prudent to hold inbound (down) trains at Whitland or Carmarthen for a few minutes' recovery time too.

(There is also the point that the single track between Tenby and Whitland is timed for half an hour each way as well, so there's not much wiggle-space there. You'd also need some time to exchange tokens at Tenby and Whitland. The replacement of 153s with 170s in a few years' time may help with that, as the timetable could be rewritten for a faster-accelerating unit.)

So what will work the other service if only one will be a 170

 

[krus_aragon]

So what will work the other service if only one will be a 170

I think you may have misunderstood my post:

The replacement of 153s with 170s in a few years' time may help with that, as the timetable could be rewritten for a faster-accelerating unit.)

The plan is that in a few years time, all West Wales services will be operated by 170s. At that point, there'll be no need to design a timetable for the speed and acceleration of a 150/153, so it may as well be rewritten for the speed and acceleration of a 170.

Note that I'm assuming that a 170 would be faster than a 153 on the kind of stopping services you find in West Wales. I don't have any detailed knowledge on this.

 

[Anonymous10]

I think you may have misunderstood my post:

The plan is that in a few years time, all West Wales services will be operated by 170s. At that point, there'll be no need to design a timetable for the speed and acceleration of a 150/153, so it may as well be rewritten for the speed and acceleration of a 170.

Note that I'm assuming that a 170 would be faster than a 153 on the kind of stopping services you find in West Wales. I don't have any detailed knowledge on this.

Ah I thought they were only using one so will the Manchester to Milford haven and Manchester to Tenby services be no more ?

 

[krus_aragon]

Ah I thought they were only using one so will the Manchester to Milford haven and Manchester to Tenby services be no more ?

I was concentrating on the Pembroke line rather than Milford, and had forgotten about the one-a-day through service from Manchester. If that one-off service still survives in the post-2022 timetable, it'll be operated by the same Class 197s that will be operating Manchester-Milford (and other long-distance services across Wales). The 197s will definitely be faster than 153s, so the possibility of speeding up the timetable to increase time for turnaround and token exchange will still be there. (There's still the need to sort out those level crossings, though.)

 

[Anonymous10]

I was concentrating on the Pembroke line rather than Milford, and had forgotten about the one-a-day through service from Manchester. If that one-off service still survives in the post-2022 timetable, it'll be operated by the same Class 197s that will be operating Manchester-Milford (and other long-distance services across Wales). The 197s will definitely be faster than 153s, so the possibility of speeding up the timetable to increase time for turnaround and token exchange will still be there. (There's still the need to sort out those level crossings, though.)

True I guess