Reinstating 4tph off-peak on the Hertford Loop and for Welwyn stoppers

[43074]

In respect of any sort of changes, of course you'd need to path accordingly, and you may need to recast.

This will be the crux of it - if you could line the paths up over the viaduct and through the core without compromising the rest of the ECML south timetable then great, but there will be no appetite for some time for a recast after December.

(* Apart from bailing it out when it turns out it the performance is dire on the long distance stuff after the recast; and the performance modelling already shows that some sort of intervention will likely be needed IMO)

 

[WAB]

GTR I believed don't have enought drivers to run an enhanced services. Covid is just a nice excuse (although I may have slowed down the driver training programme) - They stuggle to run the current timetable with the resources they have so going back to 4tph will give lots of cancelations (I think they should ASAP) - hopefully the May 2026 rumour is true. They may have got the training backlog complete by then.

Would this be the same shortage which WAGN blamed for limited off-peak services in the early-2000s?

 

[Failed Unit]

Would this be the same shortage which WAGN blamed for limited off-peak services in the early-2000s?

Very possible.

I remember back then it was made worse by how the diagrams worked. You often had a train for one service and no driver. Then a driver for another and no train. Same as on the Thameslink side now.

As GTR can’t cope with disruption now - I don’t know if 4 tph would work.

 

[leytongabriel]

The fact that the Slow Line 2 (both up and down) was reinstated, was supposed to enable a decent number of extra services as stuff wasn't now battling to use the slows through the platforms. In theory, all Hertford trains could just not stop at Harringay or Hornsey, and remove all the conflicting moves. Harringay and Hornsey aren't "small" stations but the likelihood of people being agitated at being stood for 90 seconds or 3.5 minutes to Finsbury Park is almost a nonsense.

Given the closeness of stations such as Manor House and Turnpike Lane and their superior frequencies and through connections to the centre of London, you don't need those Harringay and Hornsey calls.

To get to a slightly mismatched (e.g. not quarter-hourly) timetable of 8tph via Hertford, would be very positive. Especially as it would probably allow the Stevenage service to be accelerated, maybe being even fast from Finsbury Park to Palmers Green.

You'd effectively get a sort of service out of Moorgate like this:
- xx:00 Welwyn all stations.
- xx:04 Gordon Hill semi-fast (not Harringay or Hornsey), e.g. also not Grange Park. Benefits Hertford as this will pick up a lot of people after an 8 minute gap.
- xx:09 Hertford North all stations (not Harringay or Hornsey).
- xx:13 Welwyn, fast from Finsbury Park to New Southgate, possibly not Brookmans Park and Welham Green.
- xx:17 Welwyn all stations.
- xx:21 Stevenage semi-fast, non-stop from Finsbury Park to Palmers Green and perhaps not Grange Park, Crews Hill or Bayford.
- xx:26 Hertford North all stations (not Harringay or Hornsey).
And then again with 30 minutes added.

The xx:00 off Moorgate leaves Finsbury at about xx:14, and the xx:17 off Moorgate leaves Finsbury at about xx:31. Slot the Cambridge / Letchworth / Royston 'stopper' in just in front of that xx:00 Moorgate / xx:14 Finsbury, and add in stops at Ally Pally and New Barnet during high peak, and it won't quite catch the Welwyn in front. You've now got the right mix of traffic, a few extra big station stops, and less trains running around with 2 or 3 minutes of pathing time.

You also get the benefit of redeploying 8/700s off the Welwyn semi-fast from Sevenoaks and into a path departing Finsbury straight onto the fast lines and non-stop to Welwyn North, to be the high-peak Royston / Letchworth fast-ish.

Hornsey and Harringay aren't small stations as you say. They used to be quiet when half the trains didn't stop but usage at Hornsey is now comparable to Alexandra Palace. And the road to Turnpike Lane gets very congested. Bowes Pk is less used but shouldn't inner suburban services be frequent all stations. Easy to use and passenger orientated.

 

[BranstonJnc]

Hornsey and Harringay aren't small stations as you say. They used to be quiet when half the trains didn't stop but usage at Hornsey is now comparable to Alexandra Palace. And the road to Turnpike Lane gets very congested. Bowes Pk is less used but shouldn't inner suburban services be frequent all stations. Easy to use and passenger orientated.

If you have to make services run reliably, well, and to suit the needs of every customer overall, you get to a point where you have to accept that maybe some trains can't stop there. The very make-up of the Slow Lines / Slow Line 2s means that naturally Hertford trains not stopping is a good idea.

 

[rmHawk765]

Hornsey and Harringay aren't small stations as you say. They used to be quiet when half the trains didn't stop but usage at Hornsey is now comparable to Alexandra Palace. And the road to Turnpike Lane gets very congested. Bowes Pk is less used but shouldn't inner suburban services be frequent all stations. Easy to use and passenger orientated.

I have to agree, they have gotten busier - but I feel if the service gets more frequent not all trains will have to stop there. Having Hertford bound trains skip it makes sense. Interchange is always available at Finsbury Park and Ally Pally after all.

 

[Hadders]

Don't fall for the trap of think that giving the Moorgate inner-suburban services to TfL will solve everything because the chances are it won't.

The service does need improving and it's dreadful to think that 11 years after taking over and apparently launching the largest ever driver recruitment campaign ever seen in the railway GTR still don't have sufficient drivers to run the full service. Yes, covid did get in the way, but I suspect what we're seeing is the deadhand of the DfT at work.

 

[Transilien]

Don't fall for the trap of think that giving the Moorgate inner-suburban services to TfL will solve everything because the chances are it won't.

The service does need improving and it's dreadful to think that 11 years after taking over and apparently launching the largest ever driver recruitment campaign ever seen in the railway GTR still don't have sufficient drivers to run the full service. Yes, covid did get in the way, but I suspect what we're seeing is the deadhand of the DfT at work.

Does TFL have a recruitment problem?

 

[Hadders]

Does TFL have a driver recruitment problem?

I've no idea, but where will they get the money from to recruit and train more drivers. They're not exactly flush with cash and the DfT isn't going to give them money that they wouldn't give to GTR.

Also splitting potentially reduces efficiency as inter working across the wider GN network will no longer happen.

 

[rmHawk765]

GTR I believed don't have enought drivers to run an enhanced services. Covid is just a nice excuse (although I may have slowed down the driver training programme) - They stuggle to run the current timetable with the resources they have so going back to 4tph will give lots of cancelations (I think they should ASAP) - hopefully the May 2026 rumour is true. They may have got the training backlog complete by then.

I honestly doubt this is true, they don't appear to be pushing for new applications at the minute. It could be true but I would put it down to other factors personally. If they truly had a shortage wouldn't they have launched a big campaign after? I don't remember anything like that.

 

[Failed Unit]

I honestly doubt this is true, they don't appear to be pushing for new applications at the minute. It could be true but I would put it down to other factors personally. If they truly had a shortage wouldn't they have launched a big campaign after? I don't remember anything like that.

I think they are so backlogged on training they don’t have enough instructors.

Currently have training for the 379 (granted this shouldn’t take long). Plus the new signalling systems. Add more recruitment something has to give.

 

[rmHawk765]

I think they are so backlogged on training they don’t have enough instructors.

Currently have training for the 379 (granted this shouldn’t take long). Plus the new signalling systems. Add more recruitment something has to give.

Well I do understand they have other things to be doing at the minute, but I feel they've had a pretty large window to sort this out if I'm being honest, even if it's not possible right at the minute.

Anyway, thanks to all for the replies.