Reliability: TPE 350/4

[harz99]

Probably the time to start a new thread as the original "Construction" one is lengthy and going off topic anyway.

 

[scotraildriver]

They have certainly been causing some pretty major grief in Scotland!

 

[fishquinn]

They have certainly been causing some pretty major grief in Scotland!

How are they?

 

[SkinnyDave]

They have certainly been causing some pretty major grief in Scotland!

You would think with that and some of the problems with 380 at first Siemens must be experiencing squeaky bum time with a big order opportunity coming with Scotrail soon

 

[northwichcat]

Well TPE introduced a number of 350/4 diagrams from the May timetable change and almost every day either the 8 car 350/4 diagram runs as 4 cars or a 185 (nabbed off North TPE) fills in for a 350/4 or both. Today the unit which should be strengthening the 14:50 Scarborough-Liverpool service from Leeds onwards has been taken to replace a failed 350 on the 14:00 Airport-Edinburgh and 18:13 Edinburgh-Airport.

 

[Wolfie]

You would think with that and some of the problems with 380 at first Siemens must be experiencing squeaky bum time with a big order opportunity coming with Scotrail soon

...how so? According to some on this site everything Siemens build is wonderful and it is only Bombardier that has problems...

Seriouly, however, given that London Midland has not had similar problems with their 350s nor SWT with the DC equivalents I think the first area to be looked at should be TPE's maintenance.

 

[northwichcat]

Seriouly, however, given that London Midland has not had similar problems with their 350s nor SWT with the DC equivalents I think the first area to be looked at should be TPE's maintenance.

Given TPE's maintenance at Ardwick is carried out by Siemens Transportation Systems I don't think TPE can be to blame. Siemens have built the 350/3s and 350/4s as a side project while carrying out larger projects due to the order being so small so maybe they didn't dedicate as much resource the the 350 build as was required?

 

[Wolfie]

Given TPE's maintenance at Ardwick is carried out by Siemens Transportation Systems I don't think TPE can be to blame. Siemens have built the 350/3s and 350/4s as a side project while carrying out larger projects due to the order being so small so maybe they didn't dedicate as much resource the the 350 build as was required?

You may be right or it may be as simple as the staff in the maintenance facility are still getting up to speed...

I am sure that had these been Bombardier products some on here would have been MUCH more vociferous...

 

[harz99]

Seriouly, however, given that London Midland has not had similar problems with their 350s nor SWT with the DC equivalents...

I have pondered on that a lot recently (sometimes when marooned on a failed 350/4). I also wonder if it has anything to do with the differing operating environments, such as prolonged high speed, steeper gradients, higher winds etc. etc.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think its just normal refinement of new rolling stock, ironing out any bugs or reliability issues. Its more apparrent because they have a pretty high (perhaps mistakenly high) daily fleet availability requirement, particularly at weekends.

Should also be clear there is quite a difference between a fleet delivered that has one or two out of service in a week with teething troubles, and a fleet delivered that is completely unavailable for service for months after delivery because of design/manufacturing flaws.

 

[starrymarkb]

Should also be clear there is quite a difference between a fleet delivered that has one or two out of service in a week with teething troubles, and a fleet delivered that is completely unavailable for service for months after delivery because of design/manufacturing flaws.

458s?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I agree that this should be squeeky bumb time for those who matter. As others have pointed out, the mayhem caused particularly north of the border by a fleat of 10 new trains that were ordered partly for there abilitty to work streight out of the box is worrying. the big test in my mind will be how well the introduction of the CL700s, given thats there big project now and during the 35↲build time. Equally interesting will be how well or no the first full Aventra goes for Crossrail. Iether way Iv been less than impressed, first by the 380s and now this.↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As an aside, how well have the various 377 add ons been interms of work out of the box reliabilitty?↲

 

[starrymarkb]

As an aside, how well have the various 377 add ons been interms of work out of the box reliabilitty?↲

Not great, Thameslink's 377/5s had a very troubled introduction, the 377/6s were very delayed (not sure if that was union or reliability.

Of course Siemens are not perfect either. On the Continent the Vectron locomotive has been troublesome and the less said about DB's new ICE 407s the better.

Both manufacturers are far in advance of Alsando Breda!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Good point. I was aware of the /5s being a bit tempremental but think if the /6s and /7s were plagued with faults we'd have heard? I hope from a personal POV that we dont see 380 variants on the E and G etc.

 

[Domh245]

There is a difference between having a small order of trains which are based out of a completely different depot, and a mass introduction, with the complementary staff training, experience, and 'warm up'. The 350/4s haven't had the experience (and arguably the warm up) in that the depot they were introduced to was still busy maintaining the 185s. As such, the staff would spend most of their time working on these, not practicing on the new class, as has typically happened with other desiros, where the depot has had a fair lead up time before squadron service where they can refine their skills. I'm not going to talk about the 380s, as I don't know much about them.

Don't forget the e320s for an example of delay

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The fact that most, if not all, of the fairly regular 350/4 failures are caused by either:
◆ Pantograph issues (falling off, bits coming detached, damaged carbons)
◆ TMS (computer) failure when running in multiple
◆ Door faults
Then I would tend to say that at this stage in their life cycle, the problems are to with build and component quality rather than day to day maintenance.

 

[92002]

You would think with that and some of the problems with 380 at first Siemens must be experiencing squeaky bum time with a big order opportunity coming with Scotrail soon

However, the 380 reliability has been second to none in
ScotRail.

Perhaps TPE bought the wrong model of train.

 

[capital12]

Good point. I was aware of the /5s being a bit tempremental but think if the /6s and /7s were plagued with faults we'd have heard? I hope from a personal POV that we dont see 380 variants on the E and G etc.

I'm pretty sure there is a thread somewhere about the faults with the /6s! I saw two sets side by side both experiencing problems with the doors at Victoria a couple of months back and then after finally leaving Victoria it happened to another set at Clapham!

 

[Emblematic]

However, the 380 reliability has been second to none in
ScotRail.

Perhaps TPE bought the wrong model of train.

These would be the 380s that Scotrail refused to accept and suspended commissioning on back in 2010? Not always that reliable, then.

 

[westcoaster]

When we had the introduction of 377/5's a lot of failures were not failures, in most cases it turned out faults could have been sorted by the driver but being new and not the usual 319 whack it and see, drivers were not 100% and were reluctant/ not sure what to do.

This maybe more of a problem for tpe as this is there first ac units and I bet a lot if not all drivers/conductors have never worked with ac units only diesel ( shouldn't be much difference between a 185 and a 350 on major components like doors).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm pretty sure there is a thread somewhere about the faults with the /6s! I saw two sets side by side both experiencing problems with the doors at Victoria a couple of months back and then after finally leaving Victoria it happened to another set at Clapham!

377's use gps for door release and setting up the train at all locations, if it can't find a signal it has a hissy fit and won't open the doors, you then have to go through the emergency door release process. Now at Victoria if an arriving train has to emergency release as soon as the driver keys on at the other end all doors automatically shut and lock, the new driver then has to re release once the train is set up and knows where it is.

 

[SkinnyDave]

However, the 380 reliability has been second to none in
ScotRail.

Perhaps TPE bought the wrong model of train.

Not at the start they weren't

 

[WatcherZero]

If I remember the 380's issues were mainly software. Interesting that the pantographs have been a regularly failing component as they are one of the few bits not off the shelf but the new 110mph design.

Doors tend to be one of those issues that are unreliable off the production line but are eventually ironed out to be reliable after tinkering.

TMS failure in multiple? I am dissapointed to learn thats occuring since they were diverted on arrival so that aspect could be heavily tested by the leasing company and London Midland delaying TPE recieving them. I know for ages the PID data was still off the 185's so the displays thought the the trains had six cars.

 

[Philip]

Did the 185s have any teething problems when introduced? I didn't use them before they started Blackpool and Barrow work but can't recall any problems in their early days working North West and Scotland services.

 

[capital12]

When we had the introduction of 377/5's a lot of failures were not failures, in most cases it turned out faults could have been sorted by the driver but being new and not the usual 319 whack it and see, drivers were not 100% and were reluctant/ not sure what to do.

This maybe more of a problem for tpe as this is there first ac units and I bet a lot if not all drivers/conductors have never worked with ac units only diesel ( shouldn't be much difference between a 185 and a 350 on major components like doors).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


377's use gps for door release and setting up the train at all locations, if it can't find a signal it has a hissy fit and won't open the doors, you then have to go through the emergency door release process. Now at Victoria if an arriving train has to emergency release as soon as the driver keys on at the other end all doors automatically shut and lock, the new driver then has to re release once the train is set up and knows where it is.

This was the opposite! All the doors were open - it was getting them to shut that seemed to be the problem!

 

[Blindtraveler]

A bit off topic but would I be correct in thinking that the 377s GPS is affected by all the concreet etc at Vic?

 

[Grumpy]

However, the 380 reliability has been second to none in
ScotRail.

Perhaps TPE bought the wrong model of train.

Yes. They should have bought the 170 rather than the 185.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think its just normal refinement of new rolling stock, ironing out any bugs or reliability issues. Its more apparrent because they have a pretty high (perhaps mistakenly high) daily fleet availability requirement, particularly at weekends.

.

Most of the Siemens EMU's bought to date have been for commuter routes where the nature of the business means a large proportion of the fleet are only required to work for a couple of hours or so 5 days/week. Not overly demanding and plenty of opportunity to work on faults.
The TPE units are being worked much harder-in service all day and doing high mileages.
Perhaps they aren't as robust enough

 

[northwichcat]

Did the 185s have any teething problems when introduced? I didn't use them before they started Blackpool and Barrow work but can't recall any problems in their early days working North West and Scotland services.

With 185s TPE had the option of hanging on to some of the 158s for a bit longer if there were teething problems (so they could have easily gone unnoticed), with the 350/4s TPE have done an internal cascade of the 185s used on Scottish services so it's obvious if too many 350/4s are out-of-service.

 

[swt_passenger]

A bit off topic but would I be correct in thinking that the 377s GPS is affected by all the concreet etc at Vic?

Yes, but any GPS based SDO system would be affected by being under a concrete and steel raft. But it was fairly quickly fixed by adding subsidiary balises where necessary with onboard readers on the train fleet.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks. Maybe should have pointed out that I wasnt having a go at 377s as I am quite fond of them.

 

[The Planner]

But is it the trains or the OLE? I doubt the knitting is quite as good as the southern end where the LM ones seem to cope fine.