Remaining Class 365s leaving GN - What next for the 365s?

[Bald Rick]

What none of this captures of course is the amount of extra time added due to allowances, which in the up direction can be quite substantial and has become more common presumably as the railway has got busier.

As I said, there’s a 1min performance allowance in each direction. (Woolmer Green). I think this was added a few years ago.

Clearly allowances vary depending on pathing etc.

 

[Hadders]

Just checked the May 2011 GBTT which I have a copy of.

In the down direction, typical off peak pattern was:

KGX d. xx23 and xx53
FPK d. xx28 and xx58
SVG a. xx46 and xx16

In the up direction:

SVG d. xx05 and xx35
FPK d. xx25 and xx54
KGX a. xx02 and xx32

There were some faster trains in the peak that appear to be a minute faster between SVG and KGX.

 

[bramling]

As I said, there’s a 1min performance allowance in each direction. (Woolmer Green). I think this was added a few years ago.

Clearly allowances vary depending on pathing etc.

Apologies I was thinking more about pathing. There’s quite a few pathing minutes to be found in up services nowadays compared to the early 2000s.

Having had a few moments to look further at this, I’m even more of the view that it’s more station dwell times that’s the extending factor nowadays rather than pathing time though. It tends to be LNER, and even more so the open access, which gets hit with pathing time more so than GTR.

 

[Ianno87]

Apologies I was thinking more about pathing. There’s quite a few pathing minutes to be found in up services nowadays compared to the early 2000s.

Having had a few moments to look further at this, I’m even more of the view that it’s more station dwell times that’s the extending factor nowadays rather than pathing time though. It tends to be LNER, and even more so the open access, which gets hit with pathing time more so than GTR.

GTR (and predecessors) have moved from 30/60 second dwells to 60/90 seconds at busier stations. E.g. Stevenage and Finsbury Park are both 90 seconds minimum.

Some dwells at Finsbury Park are slightly longer still for pathing between the Thameslink Core and the ECML fasts.

 

[Chiltern006]

365508 has been debranded ahead of storage

credit to Stephen Palmer on FB

 

[365 Networker]

365508 has been debranded ahead of storage

credit to Stephen Palmer on FB

That confirms it then. Very sad. I do hope there will be an opportunity to have one more ride on them.

 

[Envy123]

Shame. I liked them.

Oh well, I also like the C2C and Gatwick Express units too. As long as there will be some fasts at peak times, I'll be fine.

 

[Chiltern006]

will the GX units be put in a new livery or just have logos applied?

 

[Skimble19]

That confirms it then. Very sad. I do hope there will be an opportunity to have one more ride on them.

There should be some in service until around Mid May

will the GX units be put in a new livery or just have logos applied?

Whilst it appears to be the case that some of the GX 387s will be moving over, it hasn’t actually been officially announced yet, so highly unlikely anyone will be able to answer that accurately just yet.

However, the GN 387 that went south temporarily only got a few decals, plus the existing GN 387s aren’t actually in GN livery.

 

[Fincra5]

will the GX units be put in a new livery or just have logos applied?

Probably a new Logo, or they'll leave it as is. Technically there are no GX Services during the Gatwick Works (Until 2023) but they're still branded as GX, even though, they are used as Southern services on the Mainline and to Hastings/Ore (and some Peak additonals).

 

[Skimble19]

Probably a new Logo, or they'll leave it as is. Technically there are no GX Services during the Gatwick Works (Until 2023) but they're still branded as GX, even though, they are used as Southern services on the Mainline and to Hastings/Ore (and some Peak additonals).

Confirmed today that they’re effectively “borrowed” and will be returning to GX at some point, so indeed, likely to be a new logo at most.

 

[jon0844]

Confirmed today that they’re effectively “borrowed” and will be returning to GX at some point, so indeed, likely to be a new logo at most.

And if new stock is needed afterwards, they'll look to source other stock - so potentially 379s? More likely than a run on order of 700s I'd imagine. Even extending some 8 car to 12 car trains would seem unlikely now.

 

[bramling]

Confirmed today that they’re effectively “borrowed” and will be returning to GX at some point, so indeed, likely to be a new logo at most.

Just the LTS 6x387 is going to leave them properly short in the medium term. There were originally from memory 17x 365 diagrams from May 18. 6x 387 for 17x 365 is a reduction of 11, perhaps one or two below than even if we allow for a little bit of efficiency brought by having one type of train - however there comes a point when all your trains are running towards London at a particular time, so this efficiency isn’t going to yield too much. So we’re still going to be down perhaps 9 diagrams. That’s 3x 12-car peak flow services, or various combinations of short formed and missing ones.

379s aren’t a ready solution as even if it were decided to send 387s back to GX and perhaps half the GN fleet to SN to replace 313s, GN then ends up with a mixed 387/379 fleet. I suppose if not work to stick 379 on the Kings Lynn service, and keep the remaining 387s for Peterborough and Baldock. 11x GN ones plus 6x LTS ones would just about cover the 365 work.

Another possibility is of course the 365s making a return if passenger numbers bounce back quicker than expected. The biggest issue there is crew knowledge lapsing.

 

[Aictos]

Confirmed today that they’re effectively “borrowed” and will be returning to GX at some point, so indeed, likely to be a new logo at most.

Indeed as far as I'm aware the Class 365s will be retired in May so makes sense from the start of the May TT that they will no longer be in use with the GatEx Class 387s coming over temporarily which will be in use until the Gatwick Airport works are completed which bring benefits as they are air conditioned.

As to what will replace them, I've been advised that the company is in talks with the DfT.

So this may mean extra Class 700s, at this point nobody knows

 

[jon0844]

I think there's more chance of more 700s being built than the 365s ever coming back. It solves a number of issues for GTR I'd imagine, although I love the 365s (bar the lack of air con!) and spent years travelling on them in preference to 317s, 321s and 313s at the time. I would hope to see something being done to them to keep them in service somewhere. Make them bi-mode, battery powered, hydrogen, nuclear (!) but don't scrap them!

However, they've outgrown their usefulness and I can see the company making a big deal of the fact they now have no trains on GN without air con, or even CCTV from a safety point of view. The lack of gangways and SDO must also be issues.

 

[Aictos]

I think there's more chance of more 700s being built than the 365s ever coming back. It solves a number of issues for GTR I'd imagine, although I love the 365s (bar the lack of air con!) and spent years travelling on them in preference to 317s, 321s and 313s at the time. I would hope to see something being done to them to keep them in service somewhere. Make them bi-mode, battery powered, hydrogen, nuclear (!) but don't scrap them!

However, they've outgrown their usefulness and I can see the company making a big deal of the fact they now have no trains on GN without air con, or even CCTV from a safety point of view. The lack of gangways and SDO must also be issues.

Equally more Class 387s could be built as to the Class 365s, could use them for freight eg like what is proposed with the Class 319s and Class 769s.

 

[Chiltern006]

Bombardier (now alstom) closed the electrostar production line a few years ago to allow for the aventras to be built. if GN will get any new stock, it'll be something Siemens

 

[Aictos]

Bombardier (now alstom) closed the electrostar production line a few years ago to allow for the aventras to be built. if GN will get any new stock, it'll be something Siemens

You say that though but the last of the original batch of Class 390s were built in 2004 with the second batch not built until 2010 a good 6 years later.

So no reason why Bombardier couldn't start building the Class 387s again especially if the tender to build them was worded in such a way that the only possible trains would be more Class 387s.

It's similar to how the second batch of Class 390s were built.

But if they went for more Class 387s, they would ideally build enough for Great Northern to use on the King's Lynn services but also may be a opportunity to build some with batteries to use by Southern which would in turn free up the Class 171s on the Uckfields and Ashford Int services.

Failing that, a second order of Class 700s would make sense from a operational point of view as it would mean the Great Northern would only have two fleets to manage, the Class 717s on the Inner Suburban services and the Class 700s on the Outer Suburban services with the Great Northern brand being retired with services for simplicity being branded as Thameslink.

But if they were to consider a second batch of Class 700s then it would make sense to order enough to not only displace the GN Class 387s but it might be worthwhile to place a order for a fleet of 8 car Class 700s on top of the GN order to cascade the Southern Class 455 fleet to the scrapyard in fact a fleet of 26 Class 700s would enough to retire the Class 455s and still have one being maintained etc so you get a smaller fleet but one that offers air conditioning, up to date information and toilets.

We will see though as to the GatEx Class 387s being used, I think they will remain in a general pool to be used on both GN and SN services with no GN branding added to them.

 

[Chiltern006]

GN **CANNOT** disappear as they are contractually obilgated to run a service under that brand still

390s were a bit of a different story. the production line has been closed for the electrostar, to allow for the aventras to be built

 

[Wolfie]

You say that though but the last of the original batch of Class 390s were built in 2004 with the second batch not built until 2010 a good 6 years later.

So no reason why Bombardier couldn't start building the Class 387s again especially if the tender to build them was worded in such a way that the only possible trains would be more Class 387s.

It's similar to how the second batch of Class 390s were built.

But if they went for more Class 387s, they would ideally build enough for Great Northern to use on the King's Lynn services but also may be a opportunity to build some with batteries to use by Southern which would in turn free up the Class 171s on the Uckfields and Ashford Int services.

Failing that, a second order of Class 700s would make sense from a operational point of view as it would mean the Great Northern would only have two fleets to manage, the Class 717s on the Inner Suburban services and the Class 700s on the Outer Suburban services with the Great Northern brand being retired with services for simplicity being branded as Thameslink.

But if they were to consider a second batch of Class 700s then it would make sense to order enough to not only displace the GN Class 387s but it might be worthwhile to place a order for a fleet of 8 car Class 700s on top of the GN order to cascade the Southern Class 455 fleet to the scrapyard in fact a fleet of 26 Class 700s would enough to retire the Class 455s and still have one being maintained etc so you get a smaller fleet but one that offers air conditioning, up to date information and toilets.

We will see though as to the GatEx Class 387s being used, I think they will remain in a general pool to be used on both GN and SN services with no GN branding added to them.

Doubtless Alstom could reopen the Electrostar production line, assuming that all of the components are still actually available and the design meets the latest safety standards, if someone was prepared to throw enough ££££££s at them (and l seriously doubt that it would be cheap).

 

[Bald Rick]

You say that though but the last of the original batch of Class 390s were built in 2004 with the second batch not built until 2010 a good 6 years later.

Alstom still had all the jigs etc for fabricating the correct body shells

So no reason why Bombardier couldn't start building the Class 387s again especially if the tender to build them was worded in such a way that the only possible trains would be more Class 387s.

Bombardier don’t have the jigs Etc to fabricate the correct body shells.

GN **CANNOT** disappear as they are contractually obilgated to run a service under that brand still

Contracts can change, and indeed have. Albeit not on the matter of GN branding.

 

[Energy]

Bombardier don’t have the jigs Etc to fabricate the correct body shells.

Why would they keep them? They haven't produced an electrostar in years, its an older platform, if you want a train from them they will promote the Aventra.

 

[southern442]

There are perfectly good, not-particularly-old 379s lying around, if they don't get used then that just seems bizarre to me (unless there are other plans for them of course)

 

[Felixkoch2312]

Off-Topic, but since they are now the only 10-car trains in this fleet and they will be going to a separate operator to the rest, and will have separate ownership, would it not make more sense to renumber them back to a separate class?

Exactly!!!

 

[D365]

Exactly!!!

What's "exactly"? Changing the Class 720/6 TOPS designation would waste time and money for no good reason. Not that it's relevant to 365s, mind.

 

[physics34]

Yeh, 'dft' to work with gtr in replacing the gat ex units when they return' was basically the wording on the staff brief.
I have heard other rumours that the 379s will end up at GN with all the 387s and 377/5 transferring to Southern to replace the 313 and 455s fleets by December. Same place i heard about the remaining 365 being retired a couple of weeks ago, so there maybe legs in it.

 

[Chiltern006]

so what happens with finding a replacement for the 377/5s on SE? 707s aren't a viable replacement btw

 

[bramling]

Yeh, 'dft' to work with gtr in replacing the gat ex units when they return' was basically the wording on the staff brief.
I have heard other rumours that the 379s will end up at GN with all the 387s and 377/5 transferring to Southern to replace the 313 and 455s fleets by December. Same place i heard about the remaining 365 being retired a couple of weeks ago, so there maybe legs in it.

There’s a lot of sense in that happening, as the 29x GN 387, plus the 6x LTS ones, plus the Gatwick units and plus the 377/5 would just about be enough to get rid of the 313s and 455s. The 707s could displace Networkers (10 car vice 8 car giving a slight capacity boost on the metro network) which could backfill the 377/5s.

This would leave GN about 20x units short though. Could the 365s then find themselves being re-leased on dirt cheap terms on the basis that any lease is better than storage costs, perhaps with bodyside cameras thrown in (the need for wayside DOO equipment being their biggest bugbear at the moment)? Just a thought.

GN can manage without the 20 units now and still run two peak Peterborough services. They might just be able to squeeze another in, perhaps another if they drop them all to 8-car, but beyond that they will struggle. They could do the Baldocks with the surplus 700/0s, but only until the peak Welwyns return. One way or another, GN won’t be able to manage with just the 379s in the medium term, unless passenger numbers remain badly down.

To give some context:
313+455 is 65 units
365 is 21 uni
387/1+387/2+LTS is 62 units
377/5 is 23 units
379 is 30 units

If the 313, 455 and 365 fleets go this is 86 units.

If the LTS 387s, 377/5 and 379s join this is 59 units joining. Quite a shortfall, even allowing for reduced numbers.

Add in the fact that the 365s are unlikely to find use elsewhere (the only pre-1990s EMUs remaining would be the Scotrail 318/320 fleet), and it does kind of make sense to have them back on GN and focus on binning the 313/455 instead.

A lot depends on passenger numbers of course.

 

[physics34]

so what happens with finding a replacement for the 377/5s on SE? 707s aren't a viable replacement btw

Maybe after lockdown if the expected reduction in ridership takes place they might be.

There’s a lot of sense in that happening, as the 29x GN 387, plus the 6x LTS ones, plus the Gatwick units and plus the 377/5 would just about be enough to get rid of the 313s and 455s. The 707s could displace Networkers (10 car vice 8 car giving a slight capacity boost on the metro network) which could backfill the 377/5s.

This would leave GN about 20x units short though. Could the 365s then find themselves being re-leased on dirt cheap terms on the basis that any lease is better than storage costs, perhaps with bodyside cameras thrown in (the need for wayside DOO equipment being their biggest bugbear at the moment)? Just a thought.

GN can manage without the 20 units now and still run two peak Peterborough services. They might just be able to squeeze another in, perhaps another if they drop them all to 8-car, but beyond that they will struggle. They could do the Baldocks with the surplus 700/0s, but only until the peak Welwyns return. One way or another, GN won’t be able to manage with just the 379s in the medium term, unless passenger numbers remain badly down.

Im a little bit lost north of the river to be honest, but yeh i was thinking those surplus 700s maybe adequate. I have no idea about the peak time requirements up there. Maybe some 387s could stay. Gatwick Express may never get back to the service levels it had.

 

[Wolfie]

Maybe after lockdown if the expected reduction in ridership takes place they might be.


Im a little bit lost north of the river to be honest, but yeh i was thinking those surplus 700s maybe adequate. I have no idea about the peak time requirements up there. Maybe some 387s could stay. Gatwick Express may never get back to the service levels it had.

So why is it that South Eastern is expected to cope while Southern (which also must be subject to the same drop in ridership) apparently gets preferential treatment?