Renaming Ticket Types to avoid confusion

[Titfield]

There have been a number of posts in the Disputes and Prosecutions section where the naming of the "advance" and "anytime" ticket types appear to have caused confusion resulting in action being taken against passengers who were travelling without a ticket valid for that specific train.

It has been suggested that the plethora of ticket types should be reduced and renamed to make ticket validity clearer to customers.

For the purposes of discussion I have suggested:

Fixed Off Peak Single
Fixed Peak Single
Flexible Off Peak Single
Flexible Peak Single

A return is two singles (one in each direction).

Fixed means it can only be used on the specific train it is booked for, can not be changed and can not be refunded.

Flexible means it can be used on any train (subject to the time restrictions of peak and off peak) and can not be refunded*.

Is the word anytime better than peak ? The problem being you cant say Fixed Anytime ..... because that confuses when it can be used with how it can be used.

The remaining problem you have got is how do you communicate which tickets have to be purchased in advance (and which can be bought on the day) and whether they are capacity controlled.

*The problem with refunds is being able to tell if a ticket has been used.

 

[Gwr12345]

Would it really be necessary to make a distinction between off- peak and peak advances? It's effectively the same ticket after all, it can only be used on a select train.

 

[Titfield]

Would it really be necessary to make a distinction between off- peak and peak advances? It's effectively the same ticket after all, it can only be used on a select train.

That is a good point.

Just thinking a bit further should the ticket names be:

Fixed Single
Flexible Off Peak Single
Flexible Peak Single

Is the word "time" required to make the context of Peak / Off Peak clear?

 

[Gwr12345]

That is a good point.

Just thinking a bit further should the ticket names be:

Fixed Single
Flexible Off Peak Single
Flexible Peak Single

Is the word "time" required to make the context of Peak / Off Peak clear?

And peak tickets in my opinion, would sound too much like they were only valid in the peaks for commuting etc, not valid all the time, I much prefer the word anytime as it gets the message across clearly and succinctly.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That is a good point.

Just thinking a bit further should the ticket names be:

Fixed Single
Flexible Off Peak Single
Flexible Peak Single

Is the word "time" required to make the context of Peak / Off Peak clear?

My preferred naming would go something like

Fixed - you can only use for the journey as shown i.e. current advances
Semi flexible - not available on all trains, please check details i.e. all of the various tickets with some restrictions including off-peak
Flexible - any train i.e. current anytime

 

[pdq]

The semi flexible idea is good, as it can encompass any combination of TOC, route or time restriction

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How about 'fully flexible', 'semi-flexible' and 'inflexible (booked train(s) only)'?

 

[Titfield]

And peak tickets in my opinion, would sound too much like they were only valid in the peaks for commuting etc, not valid all the time, I much prefer the word anytime as it gets the message across clearly and succinctly.

I take the point about anytime but then that raises the questions what is the name for the type of ticket which can only be used off peak ie not anytime.

It is always helpful to clearly communicate to use "opposite" type wording for example in and out, entry and exit. Anytime and off peak doesnt sound correct.

My preferred naming would go something like

Fixed - you can only use for the journey as shown i.e. current advances
Semi flexible - not available on all trains, please check details i.e. all of the various tickets with some restrictions including off-peak
Flexible - any train i.e. current anytime

Yes. My sort of concern is can the message about "semi flexible" delivered to avoid confusion.

Fixed and Flexible are good because the meaning can be communicated very simply. Semi-flexible is more ambiguous.

Do you need actually need semi-flexible tickets?

Is the real challenge the price differential between the current advance and anytime fares?

 

[avid2424]

Would the word “Timed” work better than “Fixed”. To mirror a timed admission to various events etc

 

[Titfield]

Would the word “Timed” work better than “Fixed”. To mirror a timed admission to various events etc

TBH I do not think so. Fixed and Flexible are terms more widely used (and therefore understood) than timed.

You could of course use "Changeable" and "Non-Changeable" as arguably that is more precise.

Part of the issue is that Advance Tickets do have the time and date printed on them so the meaning of calling it Fixed or Non Changeable is very clear.

But on a ticket which doesnt have a time on it, the meaning of Changeable is unclear.

If you said Fixed Time and Flexible Time that would help

I suppose the holy grail is are two single word terms that are unambiguous in meaning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Airlines would call Advances semi flexible as they are changeable for a fee and fare uplift.

TBH using brand names might make more sense, as people can develop the association with them. Everyone knew what a Saver was.

Full Flex, (Super) Saver Flex, APEX?

 

[gaillark]

I would personally keep the name "Anytime" as anytime means any time. Also keep "off-peak" as that clearly means outside of the rush hour, however the name "Advance" is very misleading and causes many issues as some people think it is a flexible ticket that simply is cheaper if you buy it before day of travel. Advance tickets need to be remaned to what they were when BR first introduced them - APEX. Majority of people understand that Apex is bargain basement with no flexibility of booked train (unless amended before departure). The term "advance" must be dropped.
(Some people still buy flexible tickets in advance of travel, other term being advance purchase and this does cause confusion hence the need for APEX as a term to come back).

 

[superalbs]

How is APEX a better name than Advance?

"apex"
noun
1.
the top or highest part of something, especially one forming a point.
"the apex of the roof"

2.
the highest point of achievement; a climax.
"the apex of his career was in 1966 when he hoisted aloft the World Cup for England"

Just call them 'fixed' or even 'booked trains only'. Maybe something a little more catchy.

---

Down on SWR they have ridiculously named 'Evening Out' tickets, which are valid after midday. Definitely not helpful, and very often people seem to think it's only valid in the evening.

 

[hexagon789]

How is APEX a better name than Advance?

"apex"
noun
1.
the top or highest part of something, especially one forming a point.
"the apex of the roof"

2.
the highest point of achievement; a climax.
"the apex of his career was in 1966 when he hoisted aloft the World Cup for England"

Just call them 'fixed' or even 'booked trains only'. Maybe something a little more catchy.

It's an acronym not a word itself -

APEX

Advance
Purchase
EXcursion

 

[superalbs]

It's an acronym not a word itself -

APEX

Advance
Purchase
EXcursion

I know what it meant, but it is also a word that means something completely different.

And with Advances today used on stupidly short routes, even sold on the day, it doesn't really help imo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an acronym not a word itself -

APEX

Advance
Purchase
EXcursion

The reason it's better is that it's a brand - a non word - so any concepts necessary can be associated with it.

Another option is Value. The concept was started by Virgin Trains and they called them Virgin Value tickets.

 

[Titfield]

It's an acronym not a word itself -

APEX

Advance
Purchase
EXcursion

APEX tickets were only available as returns. (Likewise Super Apex, Pex and Super Pex).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

APEX tickets were only available as returns. (Likewise Super Apex, Pex and Super Pex).

I've given my suggestion above so I am not hugely keen on anyone else having a better idea, but I am not convinced that because APEX branded tickets used to only be returns when the name was last used twenty (?) years ago that doesn't mean that the name couldn't be used now for single tickets as well / instead.

Also keep "off-peak" as that clearly means outside of the rush hour,

Not convinced by this one. The range of different restrictions covered by 'off-peak' can't be usefully simplified to 'not rush hour' (Network rule? Morning only or evening as well? Blanket 0930 arrival or trains leaving before 0845? Exceptions for specific trains? etc.) That's why I would argue for a generic term (I would use 'semi-flexible') with a clear instruction to check the details.

 

[Bletchleyite]

APEX tickets were only available as returns. (Likewise Super Apex, Pex and Super Pex).

There was no ticket just called "pex".

 

[Deerfold]

Fixed means it can only be used on the specific train it is booked for, can not be changed and can not be refunded.

Flexible means it can be used on any train (subject to the time restrictions of peak and off peak) and can not be refunded*.

*The problem with refunds is being able to tell if a ticket has been used.

This seems a massive step backward for passengers. I understand there being a fee and having to pay to a higher tier if I need to change an advance, but losing everything if I circumstances change is likely to see me travelling less by train.

Is the problem with refunds new?

I'd say my journeys are recorded more than ever with tickets being scanned by guards and ticket gates.

APEX tickets were only available as returns. (Likewise Super Apex, Pex and Super Pex).

I recall my first Apex purchase being a Saturday service from Leeds to London Kings Cross and return when I was 17. It was only valid on the 0505 or 0605 from Leeds but on any train that day to return - so the flexibility varied by direction (that was my first night sleeping at a rail station too, as there was no train early enough to connect into those early trains)..

 

[Tayway]

I'd go with

Fixed (Advance)
Saver (Off-Peak)
Flexible (Anytime)

plus Carnets and Seasons

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'd go with

Fixed (Advance)
Saver (Off-Peak)
Flexible (Anytime)

plus Carnets and Seasons

I'd go with that.

 

[Dave91131]

How about "one way" and "return".

 

[Fawkes Cat]

How about "one way" and "return".

Doesn't really tackle the problem though, does it?

 

[ainsworth74]

My view would tend to be that the issue is with the name "Advance" which has always caused confusion even before they were available just before departure. We've had more than a few people on here talking about having bought and "advance Anytime ticket" when what they meant was they'd bought an Anytime in advance of travel.

I think Fixed probably makes sense, absent a branding initiative (industry wide), as it follows the same logic as Anytime and is fairly self-explanatory. It certainly avoids any confusion with a ticket bought in advance which is actually flexible!

The bigger issue with flexible tickets isn't the names, as I say I think they actually work fairly well on the whole, it's the edge cases where the only ticket available is an Off-Peak when in reality it's valid at anytime (I assume this is part of the reason why ScotRail have kept Anytimes on sale just at the same price as the Off-Peak). Or its where you've got a "Valid On TOC X Only" restriction which the industry has decided can only be dealt with by the purchase of a new ticket. Generating considerable aggro and legal liability on the passenger when a simple excess should be the only sanction.

 

[Hassocks5489]

APEX tickets were only available as returns. (Likewise Super Apex, Pex and Super Pex).

Just as an aside, and apologies for veering off-topic, but I have a number of Apex Singles in my ticket collection, dating from between 1994 and 2005 and for journeys in various parts of the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd go with that.

Problem is that Advances are a semi-flexible ticket in the terminology of most other transport operators, i.e. it's changeable for a fee. The suggestion above to remove this flexibility is a bad one and would make the tickets significantly less attractive.

I genuinely think a recognisable but nonspecific brand name for them to which people can come to associate its properties is the best bet. Apex works and always did, but Value would also work and did in Virgin days.

Something like this might work:

Value
Leisure Flex
Business Flex/Full Flex (or just keep Anytime as it's accurate and not confusing)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'd go with

Fixed (Advance)
Saver (Off-Peak)
Flexible (Anytime)

plus Carnets and Seasons

I'd go with that.

Problem is that Advances are a semi-flexible ticket in the terminology of most other transport operators, i.e. it's changeable for a fee. The suggestion above to remove this flexibility is a bad one and would make the tickets significantly less attractive.

Although @Tayway's terminology avoids the term 'semi-flexible' with the potential confusion with other modes of transport.

In passing, it's a confusion which had passed me by (although I think @Bletchleyite has pointed it out before): I guess the problem is that I think of a train as being a glorified bus rather than as some sort of airline on rails...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although @Tayway's terminology avoids the term 'semi-flexible' with the potential confusion with other modes of transport.

I think "fixed" creates the same confusion, though. That's why I'd go for a meaningless or tangential "brand" (Apex, Value etc) rather than one describing how the ticket acts, as it's too hard to describe in one or two words what it is (unlike say Anytime where that's really easy).

In passing, it's a confusion which had passed me by (although I think @Bletchleyite has pointed it out before): I guess the problem is that I think of a train as being a glorified bus rather than as some sort of airline on rails...

Trains that are like glorified buses should really stick to a simple fare structure without any Advances in my view anyway. Northern's Advances cause much more trouble than they are worth, typically offering a very small discount over half a return, and if they can afford to offer them as a way of making singles closer to half a return, just cut the price of the singles so they are half a return.

LNER is an airline on wheels to most users.

(OK, there are some halfway houses like Avanti Brum-Euston or TPE).