Reported for possible prosecution - problems paying at destination (Preston)

[farwa]

Hi
i basically got accused of fare dogeding and now have recieved a letter saying they want to prosecute me and asking me for my side of the story. what do i do in order for them to not take this to court?

 

[northwichcat]

What type of card did you have and did it have enough funds on it to make the transaction?

If the card was rejected because it's online use only e.g. Visa Electron cards or because there wasn't enough funds on it then it would be seen as you didn't have means of making the transaction.

 

[farwa]

yes it was a visa card but just a 2 or 3 days before the incident happened i had used it and it worked but only when he swiped it. but when i tried this time i mean the day of teh incident he asked me to enter my pin but the card did have enough funds and ahve my bank statements to show that

 

[northwichcat]

yes it was a visa card

Do you mean a Visa card which doesn't say Electron underneath Visa and doesn't say 'Electronic use only' or similar on the reverse?

 

[farwa]

it only says visa not electronic use only

 

[northwichcat]

it only says visa not electronic use only

What I think may have happened with your card is your card allows off-line use (such as a transaction at a portable machine that doesn't check how much money is in your account first) but there's a limit to the value of transactions that can be taken off-line and you'd gone over that limit.

 

[farwa]

yes but what do i do in order to convince these people that it wasnt my fault or to setle the matter out of court?

 

[Yew]

My Natwest Visa card does not say electronic use only, however it does not allow offline transactions.

 

[northwichcat]

yes but what do i do in order to convince these people that it wasnt my fault or to setle the matter out of court?

There's numerous people on here that are very good at advising what to do in such circumstances but all the facts need to be established first.

The first thing I thought of is having valid means of purchasing a ticket which is why I enquired if you had a card that should take off-line transactions.

 

[farwa]

it should because it worked a few days before so i dont see why it didnt on the day of teh incident. Also i wasnt aware about off line transactions as i said iv never travelled on a train before and this was the 3rd day. i didnt deny to pay for the ticket infact i begged the guy to allow me to pay but he refused

 

[RPI]

The point when you committed an offence was when you tried to walk off "to go to the bank", now, i'm very cynical at the best of times but if you were the inspector and you had just asked someone to go to the ATM to get money but then they walk off then what would you be thinking? Now all you can do is wait to see what the TOC writes to you and when you recieve a letter let us know what it says and we can then advise further. I am assuming that it is Northern Rail (were you stopped by G4S staff?) or possibly Transpennine?

 

[maniacmartin]

If the Visa was an online-only type (and not all of them are labelled as such, so you may not know if you have one), then it would have worked at the ticket office in Preston, just not on the portable Avantix ticket machines that staff have.

Does the letter say which law they intend to prosecute under (e.g. Railway Byelaws or Regulation of Railways Act)?
Also which company was the letter from?

 

[RPI]

Sorry ignore most of my last post, that will teach me not to read the entire post! Offer to pay their costs pluss the fare and apologise in order to stay out of court.

 

[farwa]

i know it occurred to me later on aswell that was wrong of me to walk off. and yes it is the northern rail but when i insisted that he let me pay shouldnt he have let me pay? if i didnt come back with the money he could have sent my report off. yes i did recieve a letter na it says that it will be under both. RPI should i say to them i am sorry for any problems that this may have caused you and i was ready pay for the ticket then and i am ready to pay for it now along with any extra costs and i would much appreciate it if this matter could be solved outside the court room? or should i word it differently?

 

[reb0118]

Just for clarification I will state my interpretation of your scenario as this may help you in the future.

You stated that you boarded at an unstaffed station without facilities to purchase a ticket prior to travel, you were unable to purchase a ticket on board the train due to train being busy and the conductor was not able to get to you in time. At your destination station (Preston) there was a revenue block (ticket check on the platform) and you requested a ticket from your boarding point. So far so good. As you have not had the opportunity to purchase a ticket then you have not committed any offence.

Now, upon processing the transaction on the platform your card has been declined (the reason for the card being declined is immaterial). Therefore, and as I am assuming that you had no other means to pay, you did not have the means to purchase a ticket. It is at this point that you have committed an offence as you have travelled on the railway without a ticket & without the means to purchase a ticket. You may think that you intended to pay but as you did not have the means to pay you could not, therefore it was your intent to avoid the fare. Note it is not your ability or willingness to pay at a later date that counts but your ability to pay when challenged for your fare.

That said the railway can give you the opportunity to pay at a later date by issuing an Unpaid Fares Notice or similar. An individual member of staff may show discretion also by e.g. allowing you to visit an ATM on the station to obtain cash. You were shown discretion as you were allowed to visit the ATM but your actions in your unauthorised leaving of the station premises without previously paying the correct fare (however altruistic your actions may have seemed to you) have reinforced the member of staff's view that your intent was to avoid payment.

Remember it is your responsibility to ensure that you have a valid ticket prior to travel if facilities are available or to ensure that you have the means to pay when requested if there are no facilities prior to boarding.

I am not judging you but merely stating my interpretation of your actions from the railway's point of view. It can sometimes help to look at the other side of the argument - no doubt others will be along to comment on the difficulty in purchasing tickets and the reasons behind declining card transactions. However valid these topics may be for discussion I feel that they will not help the OP in his case. The onus is rightly or wrongly on the passenger to ether show a valid ticket or purchase one when asked.

 

[northwichcat]

The National Rail map of Preston appears to only show one cash machine:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/PRE/plan.html?rtnloc=PRE
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/PRE/images/photos/800/o2782-0000102.jpg

Someone should be able to confirm if that is the case.

farwa - you've mentioned leaving the station to go to the bank instead, was the time you left the station between 9am and 4pm on Monday-Friday or 9am and 12pm on Saturday which would have allowed you enough time to use the bank before it closed?

 

[bb21]

i know it occurred to me later on aswell that was wrong of me to walk off. and yes it is the northern rail but when i insisted that he let me pay shouldnt he have let me pay?

He is under no obligation to do so, seeing that you attempted to walk off railway premises, therefore appearing to attempt fare evasion.

You say that this is only your third time travelling on the railway. Is this because you have only arrived at this country not long ago? This might help us understand your card situation.

If you have no means to pay and need to walk off railway premises in order to obtain cash, it sounds like you have committed an offence.

 

[snail]

The National Rail map of Preston appears to only show one cash machine:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/PRE/plan.html?rtnloc=PRE
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/PRE/images/photos/800/o2782-0000102.jpg

Someone should be able to confirm if that is the case.

Yes, it's on platform 4. Ironically, you have to walk past the ticket office to get to it, presuming the OP got off a Blackpool South train on P1/2 and was stopped by the G4S staff on the overbridge.

 

[farwa]

yes thats what heppend but i got stopped by one of the staff okay i understand now that it was my own fault but what i want to know is what can i say that they will not take me to court?

 

[snail]

I'm going to leave someone else to answer that but one more question comes to mind - you say you couldn't pay on the train because it was busy. But if the card was all you had it probably wouldn't have worked on the train either. Had you used it on a train previously or only at a bank machine?

 

[farwa]

i had used it before to buy a train ticket and it did work

 

[sheff1]

i had used it before to buy a train ticket and it did work

.. and therefore you would quite reasonably expect it to work the next time as well.

I recommend that you include this fact in your reply.

 

[farwa]

can someone delete this thread please iv noticed in other threads people become pretty crtitical annd judgeing an d i cant bear it so please someone do me this favour because i cant remove it my self thankyou

 

[bb21]

If you have any concerns regarding this thread please contact the staff team. We do not normally delete threads as the information contained within could be useful to other members.

 

[dggar]

Now, upon processing the transaction on the platform your card has been declined (the reason for the card being declined is immaterial). Therefore, and as I am assuming that you had no other means to pay, you did not have the means to purchase a ticket. Remember it is your responsibility to ensure that you have a valid ticket prior to travel if facilities are available or to ensure that you have the means to pay when requested if there are no facilities prior to boarding.

.

If the card is declined because of a failure of the ticket machine I would think that is material, especially if there are sufficient funds in the account to cover the cost.

 

[Lampshade]

Did they escort you to the cash machine, or did you just offer to go and get some cash out?

I ask because the cash machine is a fair way from the bridge.

 

[northwichcat]

If the card is declined because of a failure of the ticket machine I would think that is material, especially if there are sufficient funds in the account to cover the cost.

Indeed. Although, hopefully another RPI would have a working machine - if not there's no point of them being there unless they are right by the ticket office and watch ticket-less people buy tickets from there.

 

[reb0118]

Now, upon processing the transaction on the platform your card has been declined (the reason for the card being declined is immaterial).

If the card is declined because of a failure of the ticket machine I would think that is material, especially if there are sufficient funds in the account to cover the cost.

Yes, I would have to agree to that as well. However, it is my belief that if it gets to the stage of declining a transaction then the card reader has done its job so to speak.

I'm going to leave someone else to answer that but one more question comes to mind - you say you couldn't pay on the train because it was busy. But if the card was all you had it probably wouldn't have worked on the train either. Had you used it on a train previously or only at a bank machine?

i had used it before to buy a train ticket and it did work

Did the guard swipe the card? Some guards, even though they should not, still swipe cards through their machines. Passengers regularly tell me that I will have to swipe their cards as our machines don't read their chips. This is a no - no. (I will however swipe after verifying the pin via the card reader & obtaining a pre-authorisation code from the card helpline. This can be a time consuming process and it is not always possible to do so). As an aside I do not know why RPIs on the platform do not verify via the card helpline for declined transactions IMO this would save a lot of trouble later - declined card holders to the back of the queue though.

Once again I say to the OP that this is an open forum and that you will come across lots of different views. Some will be helpful others not so. You will learn something here if you read through all the posts. As a student you will have to use your own intelligence and judgement to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Remember just because you do not want to read something it does not stop that statement from being helpful or informative to you and possibly to others.

Now, you have received a letter from Northern? asking for your side of the story. My advice to you is this: firstly, try to stay calm this may be a serious matter but it is not life threatening - there are lots of bad things happening out there - so try to put this in perspective (I know it is easy to say that when it is not me in your situation). Secondly, when responding stick to the facts of the matter. Be clear and concise and do not let emotions get in the way. Thirdly, before sending off your reply get somebody to proof read it. You could ask back on the forum (recommended) or ask for help at your college or at the CAB (citizens advice bureau).

Once Northern have your response they will match that to the RPI's report and decide what action to take. This can take several months so you will have to be patient. You will then receive a decision from Northern and you can post back here for more advice then.

 

[SussexMan]

Now, upon processing the transaction on the platform your card has been declined (the reason for the card being declined is immaterial). Therefore, and as I am assuming that you had no other means to pay, you did not have the means to purchase a ticket. It is at this point that you have committed an offence as you have travelled on the railway without a ticket & without the means to purchase a ticket. You may think that you intended to pay but as you did not have the means to pay you could not, therefore it was your intent to avoid the fare.

I have to challenge this statement. Not having the means to pay does NOT prove intent.

Next time you are on a train, ready to pay with a credit card but it is declined because the bank have put a stop on it because of some suspicious transactions, can I assume you would be happy to accept that you have committed the offence of travelling with intent to avoid a fare. You did say that "the reason for the card being declined is immaterial".

 

[455driver]

I am just curious why everyone tries to pay by card for small value fares, what is wrong with boring old cash?

Most of these threads seem to come about because a card has been declined and carrying cash would prevent any problems.
Okay I dont mean walk around with £500 in your pocket but £20-£30 of readies isnt too difficult is it?