Reported for using Railcard discount before 10am

[Tedb]

Hoping somebody can provide some thoughts around the below story. I'm confused and would appreciate any feedback.

My son has just started studying at Uni. He is using the the rail service for the first time to commute. He was not aware that he could not use his 16-25 railcard before 10am (his fault, should have read T&Cs, as a parent my fault too).

He has been using Trainline to purchase his tickets, his railcard is associated to his account so the prices he is shown he takes as being correct. He purchased an 'Anytime' day single for the date of his journey and the train he took was 8:21am (before 10am). The ticket shows the two stations he's traveling between (and he was on that route, not travelled beyond final station) and it clearly shows a Railcard is associated to the ticket. The ticket conditions confirm it is a flexible ticket with no restrictions and that you can use a railcard. Terms that he is used to from previously using trains are 'peak' and 'off peak' but this purely said 'Anytime'.

On Friday an inspector said the ticket was invalid, he had underpaid by 85p. He was then video interviewed under caution and notified that he has been reported for prosecution.

My son has purchased the same single tickets for four days. Two days previously his ticket was checked by a GWR member of staff via a scanning machine. Nothing was flagged that he might have an invalid ticket.

I have contacted GWR (all very nice and helpful people) because I thought it must have just been a mistake but have been told that we need to wait for the settlement offer letter which will be at least 4 weeks.

My thought on this is that he bought a ticket that states all the required elements for that journey and that ticket was in his possession and presented when asked for. Aware it's before 10am but all the ticket details appear correct and accounted for when he made the purchase. Is this just a mistake by Trainline or as passengers do we need to read all T&Cs on every ticket we purchase so that we don't end up in the same situation?

My understanding from dealing with retailers that if you purchase a product from them and the price charged is incorrect that is not the customers fault and the price paid should be honoured?

I'm not writing this post out of frustration of this situation. We'll follow the GWR process. As said, the people I've spoken to have been as helpful as the process will allow. I just wanted to understand is this an outlier? Is there an error in the ticket prices presented by Trainline?

Any feedback greatly appreciated.

 

[yorkie]

Hoping somebody can provide some thoughts around the below story. I'm confused and would appreciate any feedback.

My son has just started studying at Uni. He is using the the rail service for the first time to commute. He was not aware that he could not use his 16-25 railcard before 10am (his fault, should have read T&Cs, as a parent my fault too).

He has been using Trainline to purchase his tickets, his railcard is associated to his account so the prices he is shown he takes as being correct. He purchased an 'Anytime' day single for the date of his journey and the train he took was 8:21am (before 10am). The ticket shows the two stations he's traveling between (and he was on that route, not travelled beyond final station) and it clearly shows a Railcard is associated to the ticket. The ticket conditions confirm it is a flexible ticket with no restrictions and that you can use a railcard. Terms that he is used to from previously using trains are 'peak' and 'off peak' but this purely said 'Anytime'.

On Friday an inspector said the ticket was invalid, he had underpaid by 85p. He was then video interviewed under caution and notified that he has been reported for prosecution.

My son has purchased the same single tickets for four days. Two days previously his ticket was checked by a GWR member of staff via a scanning machine. Nothing was flagged that he might have an invalid ticket.

I have contacted GWR (all very nice and helpful people) because I thought it must have just been a mistake but have been told that we need to wait for the settlement offer letter which will be at least 4 weeks.

My thought on this is that he bought a ticket that states all the required elements for that journey and that ticket was in his possession and presented when asked for. Aware it's before 10am but all the ticket details appear correct and accounted for when he made the purchase. Is this just a mistake by Trainline or as passengers do we need to read all T&Cs on every ticket we purchase so that we don't end up in the same situation?

My understanding from dealing with retailers that if you purchase a product from them and the price charged is incorrect that is not the customers fault and the price paid should be honoured?

I'm not writing this post out of frustration of this situation. We'll follow the GWR process. As said, the people I've spoken to have been as helpful as the process will allow. I just wanted to understand is this an outlier? Is there an error in the ticket prices presented by Trainline?

Any feedback greatly appreciated.

What journey is this for?

Did he select the train he caught, or did he choose a cheaper train after 10:00?

16-25 Railcards are subject to a minimum fare on most tickets (except Advance tickets and a few other exceptions) of £12 during the months of September to June inclusive (i.e. not during July/August); if the undiscounted fare would be £12 or less, then the discount effectively does not apply.

Your son would have agreed to those T&Cs when purchasing the Railcard.

What exactly did the booking confirmation email say?

 

[John R]

Similar cases we see on here are usually because the passenger has selected an outbound train after 10am, and then used the ticket before that time, thus making it invalid. I'm not saying it's the case here, but in many cases that is a conscious decision, because they know it will then return a cheaper price.

"Do we need to read All T&C's we purchase?". Well, in this case, it was incumbent on your son to understand the T&C's of the railcard they had. And we see enough cases on here where people (genuinely) mistakenly purchase an Advance ticket on the day without realising it is only valid on one train to suggest that it does pay to take some degree of attention to what you are buying to avoid getting into the situation that your son is now in. Unfortunately railway ticketing is no longer as simple as it was a generation ago. Whether that is a good thing or not is debatable.

 

[Snow1964]

For clarity, 16-25 railcards are valid before 10am, so statement that they cannot ever be used before 10am is incorrect.

However there are restrictions and a £12 minimum fare before this time. Normally the ticket seller will apply the restrictions automatically, so should never get caught.

As far as I am aware the only way to circumvent this check is to deliberately choose a later off peak train, and not the one you intend to travel on. Not sort of thing that you can do accidentally.

 

[The exile]

Not sort of thing that you can do accidentally.

Though the “accidentally” can occur if your intention was to travel after the cut off, your plans change and you are blissfully unaware of the restriction.

 

[RPI]

As others have said, you'd need to check on the train that was selected for the booking, usually in these cases, a ticket has been booked for a later train after 10:00 but then used prior to that.

 

[Haywain]

you'd need to check on the train that was selected for the booking,

Which will be abundantly clear on an eTicket.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume NOT a Trainline price error. Was the appropriate sanction for just the excess (to the minimum fare) to have been charged? Or will this matter likely now prove to be much more expensive for the OP's son to resolve?

 

[Hadders]

If somebody presents a valid ticket to an Inspector does the Inspector have the authority to ask for previous purchase history?

They can ask biut you're not required to give them your previous purchase history.

That said, as long as your ticket has been scanned the train company will have visibility of the ticket retailer and they can contact them and request details of your previous purchase history. All legal under GDPR as it's for detection and prevention of crime.

 

[Tedb]

What journey is this for?

Did he select the train he caught, or did he choose a cheaper train after 10:00?

16-25 Railcards are subject to a minimum fare on most tickets (except Advance tickets and a few other exceptions) of £12 during the months of September to June inclusive (i.e. not during July/August); if the undiscounted fare would be £12 or less, then the discount effectively does not apply.

Your son would have agreed to those T&Cs when purchasing the Railcard.

What exactly did the booking confirmation email say?

He bought a ticket from the 10:21 drop down on Trainline but on the app it showed Anytime when he purchased it. Think it’s one of those live and learn things but it is very confusing. The process is set up to catch the wrong doers (and rightly so) but it also penalises the people who make simple mistakes…once you’ve received the reported for prosecution it’s completely out of your hands.

They can ask biut you're not required to give them your previous purchase history.

That said, as long as your ticket has been scanned the train company will have visibility of the ticket retailer and they can contact them and request details of your previous purchase history. All legal under GDPR as it's for detection and prevention of crime.

Thanks. I contacted Trainline, explained the situation and circumstances and they said they’d give me a call back in 48 hours…they didn’t

Why would you expect that they would ever want to do so? It's normally only ever the case that passengers who have been caught using incorrectly or inappropriately discounted tickets (or maybe for some other ticketing Irregularity), who are liable to be reported, so that they can have their ticket purchase history looked into, as there's every chance that they'll have done similar before.

Should have been clearer, it was his friend sitting next to him who got asked

This page may be of interest:

"There are no restrictions on the time of day you can travel with an Anytime ticket, meaning you can board a train during Peak, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak hours."

"Anytime train tickets are completely flexible tickets that let you travel at any time of the day."

"Got a Railcard? Then you're in luck, as you can use most Railcards to get discounts on Anytime train tickets."


"When can I use my Anytime Day train ticket?

You can only use an Anytime Day Single ticket on the date shown on your ticket, the same goes for Anytime Day Return tickets. So, you can’t spread your journey out across other dates if this is the ticket type you've bought. Be sure to check the fare conditions displayed before you book."


"When can I use my Anytime Single train ticket?

You can use your Anytime Single train ticket on the date shown, or up until the end of the next day. Anytime Single tickets are the perfect option if you know you need to make a one-way trip within a two-day timeframe but aren’t sure of the exact time you’ll travel.


When can I use my Anytime Return train ticket?

....Choose this Open Return train ticket for leisure trips where you know you may need to travel back home, but aren’t sure of the exact date and time."

Anytime Train Tickets | Anytime Single & Return Tickets | Trainline

Looking for Anytime UK train tickets? Find information, search and book cheap Anytime Single and Anytime Return train tickets online with Trainline today.

web.archive.org

Thanks. I suppose the sticking point is ‘most’?

Which will be abundantly clear on an eTicket.

Thanks. I’ve attached the eTicket, there’s no reference to a specific train time

Presume NOT a Trainline price error. Was the appropriate sanction for just the excess (to the minimum fare) to have been charged? Or will this matter likely now prove to be much more expensive for the OP's son to resolve?

Much more expensive. Offer of paying the difference wasn’t considered. Assuming due to the purchase history showing he’d made the mistake for first three days too

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - so that we can keep this thread for advising @Tedb about their case, discussion about whether or not a railcard discounted ticket can be excessed if used at an invalid time has been split into a separate thread.

Excessing Railcard Discounted Tickets Used at an Invalid Time

Moderator Note = split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/reported-for-using-railcard-discount-before-10am.274823/#post-6964875 Presume NOT a Trainline price error. Was the appropriate sanction for just the excess (to the minimum fare) to have been charged? Or will this matter likely...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[father_jack]

That is a current "scam" doing the rounds, shall we call it "winding back the clock" ???

Buy a ticket for say, the 1001 train to get the full 1/3 off but travel when you like and dictate to revenue staff "It says here I can travel anytime on the ticket" but the fare is wrong. It doesn't help that (if I recall correctly) trainpal or trip.com helpfully put above the ticket price at 1001 after you've selected an anytime ticket "You're is also valid on (say) 0946, 0931, 0916 services" or whatever the time intervals on whatever service you are using are.

It's more a deliberate financial fraud that a ticket validity issue in my opinion because the passenger is gaining an advantage.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Moderator Note - so that we can keep this thread for advising @Tedb about their case, discussion about whether or not a railcard discounted ticket can be excessed if used at an invalid time has been split into a separate thread.

Excessing Railcard Discounted Tickets Used at an Invalid Time

Moderator Note = split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/reported-for-using-railcard-discount-before-10am.274823/#post-6964875 Presume NOT a Trainline price error. Was the appropriate sanction for just the excess (to the minimum fare) to have been charged? Or will this matter likely...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks to the moderators.

A point which I think is relevant to this thread is that the railway's very firm view is that using a Railcard out of time invalidates the ticket. Whether the railway is right in this view is one for the branched thread, but for this branch the relevant point is that it will be very hard to argue against the railway's interpretation - the sort of argument which is liable in practice to require a sympathetic and supportive lawyer. And while I firmly believe such lawyers exist, I also believe that they don't come cheap.

 

[Tedb]

Thanks to the moderators.

A point which I think is relevant to this thread is that the railway's very firm view is that using a Railcard out of time invalidates the ticket. Whether the railway is right in this view is one for the branched thread, but for this branch the relevant point is that it will be very hard to argue against the railway's interpretation - the sort of argument which is liable in practice to require a sympathetic and supportive lawyer. And while I firmly believe such lawyers exist, I also believe that they don't come cheap.

My conclusion too. Thanks to everybody for constructive and informative posts. Great forum with excellent members

 

[some bloke]

[Trainline web page]

"Got a Railcard? Then you're in luck, as you can use most Railcards to get discounts on Anytime train tickets."

Thanks. I suppose the sticking point is ‘most’?

This railcard is in that category - you can get discounts on Anytime tickets with it.

The point I'm trying to make is that Trainline here just makes a general statement, on the same page where they imply you can buy an Anytime ticket then change your plans to a different time of day.

 

[AlterEgo]

(if I recall correctly) trainpal or trip.com helpfully put above the ticket price at 1001 after you've selected an anytime ticket "You're is also valid on (say) 0946, 0931, 0916 services" or whatever the time intervals on whatever service you are using are.

So is that’s the case, then how can this:

It's more a deliberate financial fraud that a ticket validity issue in my opinion because the passenger is gaining an advantage.

…possibly be true?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From Trainline's website...

Buy your 16-25 Railcard now at Trainline

✅ WE NOW SELL 16-25 RAILCARDS! Buy a 16-25 Railcard & save up to 1/3 on UK rail travel today.

www.thetrainline.com

Extract(s)...

When can I use a 16-25 Railcard?
A 16-25 Railcard can be used at any time for Peak and Off-Peak travel. For journeys made between 04:30 and 10:00 Monday to Friday, a minimum fare of £12 is payable.

There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August. You can't use the 16-25 Railcard on Season Tickets. To see the full list of tickets a 16-25 Railcard discount is valid for, visit our Railcards terms of use guide.

 

[AdamWW]

[Trainline web page]

"Got a Railcard? Then you're in luck, as you can use most Railcards to get discounts on Anytime train tickets."

This railcard is in that category - you can get discounts on Anytime tickets with it.

The point I'm trying to make is that Trainline here just makes a general statement, on the same page where they imply you can buy an Anytime ticket then change your plans to a different time of day.

i just looked at at booking a low value ticket with Trainline (on the web) and a 16-25 railcard selected.

It defaulted to the first train which offered a railcard discount, not the next one.

So....I'm buying a ticket....I'm in a rush and I know it doesn't matter which train is selected because it's an anytime so I just go ahead with the default...

But let's suppose I'm paying more attention. Then I notice that it says:

• You’ve selected the 10:12, but you can travel on any eligible train.
• Travel any time of day"

And if I click for more detail on the ticket type there is still no mention of railcard restrictions.

While I appreciate that some people will deliberately buy a ticket for a later time, given the information provided when purchasing I do not understand how it should be possible to prosecute someone for using their ticket in the way they were clearly told they could on purchase.

Does consumer law really allow the railway to hide behind the subtle argument that the ticket is valid but the discount isn't (while simultaneously arguing that as the discount isn't valid the ticket is actually completely invalid and therefore can't be excessed)?

From Trainline's website...

Buy your 16-25 Railcard now at Trainline

✅ WE NOW SELL 16-25 RAILCARDS! Buy a 16-25 Railcard & save up to 1/3 on UK rail travel today.

www.thetrainline.com

Extract(s)...

Not immediately obvious to me that "a minumum fare is payable" implies "and if you buy a ticket for less than that and use it on an earlier train even though we tell you that it's valid you may end up in court"

As far as I am aware the only way to circumvent this check is to deliberately choose a later off peak train, and not the one you intend to travel on. Not sort of thing that you can do accidentally.

Since the Trainline helpfully chooses the later train automatically*, then tells you that the ticket it's selected can be used at any time, I think it could indeed be done accidentally.

* Or at any rate did for me. Obviously I've no way of knowing if it always does that.

I don't doubt that it's common for people to deliberately underpay their fare in this way. But I think the railway should stop misleading people before using strict liability to prosecute people who may have just made an innocent mistake.

 

[methecooldude]

* Or at any rate did for me. Obviously I've no way of knowing if it always does that

The next train for Bournemouth to Poole is after 10 today, so it would be a bit wrong. So I did a search for Monday, this is what appears for me

so from my point of view, you have to make an effort to select the cheaper ticket

 

[AdamWW]

The next train for Bournemouth to Poole is after 10 today, so it would be a bit wrong. So I did a search for Monday, this is what appears for me

so from my point of view, you have to make an effort to select the cheaper ticket

Try it via the web rather than the app. For me the first non discounted train was not just recommended but already selected.

In fact if I set the search time early enough, the seleced train wasn't even on the screen, just leaving a nice "CONTINUE" button to press to choose that train.

If I read the wording that the ticket is valid at any time why would I worry about which service was actually selected when it doesn't matter?

Can terms and conditions override an unqualified statement saying what you can do?

Now I realise that most people will no doubt use the app which perhaps behaves differently.

But still, the statement that if someone has chosen a later train it must be a deliberate act is clearly not true.

 

[father_jack]

So is that’s the case, then how can this:


…possibly be true?

Because the passengers have been buying tickets previously and know the minimum fare rules but now are doing the "changing the time" dodge and using badly worded or programmed apps and websites to justify their deception.

 

[AlterEgo]

Because the passengers have been buying tickets previously and know the minimum fare rules but now are doing the "changing the time" dodge and using badly worded or programmed apps and websites to justify their deception.

You mean they are using things which are, in fact, contractual terms like "you can use this ticket at any time" to their advantage, and terms which can be relied on in law to be correct.

That is not a fraud; it's just people taking advantage of the industry's incompetence and lack of clarity. No different to using a loophole ticket that you known isn't *supposed* to be valid in the minds of the train company, but is.

It isn't hard for the railway or the retailers to change the wording to make it clearer so I don't have a huge amount of sympathy.

 

[Tedb]

Hi. I’ve previously created a thread that has raised the issue that my son has recently gone through with GWR. His case is the same as Sam Williamson’s which has been in the national press and across social media.

Thankfully, Sam’s case has been dropped by the ToC. I’m now trying to resolve my son’s situation which appears to be more confusing and I thought this might be the right platform to get some advice.

I have contacted my MP, used ‘X’ to reach out to the firms involved and messaged the BBC…all of which I’ve done this morning so not expecting any replies today. I’ve been told the issue lies with TheTrainline by GWR. I’ve spoken to TheTrainline and been told it’s GWRs issue. In the meantime my son is in limbo.

Any advice on who else I can try and contact? Aware the ombudsman only gets involved when deadlock is reached. Are there any other railway specific organisations I could contact to discuss the situation and try and get it resolved?

The incident happened a couple of weeks ago. He’s now in the situation of waiting weeks or months to learn his fate.

Any help much appreciated

 

[Watershed]

Hi. I’ve previously created a thread that has raised the issue that my son has recently gone through with GWR. His case is the same as Sam Williamson’s which has been in the national press and across social media.

Thankfully, Sam’s case has been dropped by the ToC. I’m now trying to resolve my son’s situation which appears to be more confusing and I thought this might be the right platform to get some advice.

I have contacted my MP, used ‘X’ to reach out to the firms involved and messaged the BBC…all of which I’ve done this morning so not expecting any replies today. I’ve been told the issue lies with TheTrainline by GWR. I’ve spoken to TheTrainline and been told it’s GWRs issue. In the meantime my son is in limbo.

Any advice on who else I can try and contact? Aware the ombudsman only gets involved when deadlock is reached. Are there any other railway specific organisations I could contact to discuss the situation and try and get it resolved?

The incident happened a couple of weeks ago. He’s now in the situation of waiting weeks or months to learn his fate.

Any help much appreciated

Alongside trying to resolve this through the media/political pressure, you may want to look into a defence against any case brought by GWR. This would be along the lines that, under consumer law, any statement that influences a consumer's purchasing decision which is made by (or - crucially - on behalf of) a company becomes a term of the contract.

If your son saw the statement "valid at any time" - without any qualification - when buying his ticket and relied on this, I would argue it became a term of the contract and the ticket was indeed valid at any time as the wording suggests.

That is aside from the fact that neither the NRCoT nor Railcard conditions say that a ticket discounted to less than £12 isn't valid at all before 10am. NRCoT condition 9.5 seems to indicate the only penalty as being the requirement to pay the difference ("excess") to the cheapest valid fare, i.e. the undiscounted single/return.

I certainly wouldn't be rolling over on this one. Keep us posted as to how things proceed.

 

[Tedb]

My expectation is we’ll have to wait for the a settlement letter and if it’s not crazy I’ll pay it to close the issue out. They will have won and will continue to put people in this situation. Thanks for the advice and I’ll update once resolved either way

 

[Dave_D]

A couple of things I would like to point out please note I’m not in the law or railway

Firstly I don’t think the railway companies have the authority to declare a ticket valid or invalid. That would be for a court to decide and the railway company would need to use the terms and conditions as evidence.

Unless I’m missing something nowhere in the terms and conditions does it say that that this particular ticket with this particular Railcard is invalid?

The terms give plenty of examples for example if you are travelling first class with the standard ticket or travelling with an operator specific ticket on a different operator.

The only irregularity I can see here is that the passenger hasn’t paid enough but it it doesn’t say anywhere that I can find that this makes the ticket invalid.

As I understand even on the railcard information it says a minimum fare exists. It does not specifically that say a ticket purchased below the minimum fair is invalid.

The facts are, that the passengers is entitled to travel on any train with that ticket and there is no blanket restriction on using the railcard before 10 am.
The only thing that the defendant could possibly be prosecuted for would be under the 1889 act. As I understand it, they would need to prove that the passenger had intented to avoid their Fare.

Even then, surely a defendant could argue that they are travelling with a valid ticket and it’s up to the railway to enforce the minimum fare.

I wonder if the prosecution could successfully be defended on the basis that this is a legal loophole.

Is there anywhere else within the industry where the same ticket with the same Railcard discount has two different fares?

The railway company might themselves be guilty of breach of the terms and conditions as they say they will make ticket restrictions available to passengers when they buy the ticket – not when they buy the Railcard.

Obviously, if the defendant can prove that they had meant to use the ticket before 10 and the circumstances have changed that might be an easier way of defending the case.

I don’t know what sort of evidence the court would accept, but surely a defendant who can confirm that they have changed their plans and can produce a written communication predating the journey and witness to testify to that, would help.

It would be interesting to speculate on what sort of appetite the railway company might have for prosecuting the case if they know it’s going to be defended on the basis that this ticket/railcard combination is actually valid?

 

[yorkie]

A couple of things I would like to point out please note I’m not in the law or railway

Firstly I don’t think the railway companies have the authority to declare a ticket valid or invalid. That would be for a court to decide and the railway company would need to use the terms and conditions as evidence.

Unless I’m missing something nowhere in the terms and conditions does it say that that this particular ticket with this particular Railcard is invalid?

It's in the Railcard T&Cs.

But the remedy should be for the excess to be payable, rather than for people to be prosecuted.

The terms give plenty of examples for example if you are travelling first class with the standard ticket or travelling with an operator specific ticket on a different operator.

The only irregularity I can see here is that the passenger hasn’t paid enough but it it doesn’t say anywhere that I can find that this makes the ticket invalid.

As I understand even on the railcard information it says a minimum fare exists. It does not specifically that say a ticket purchased below the minimum fair is invalid.

I don't think this is a convincing line of argument!

The facts are, that the passengers is entitled to travel on any train with that ticket and there is no blanket restriction on using the railcard before 10 am.

There is a minimum fare for the Railcard discount to be valid; I don't think anyone can argue that the excess should not be payable.

The only thing that the defendant could possibly be prosecuted for would be under the 1889 act. As I understand it, they would need to prove that the passenger had intented to avoid their Fare.

Anyone with a good solicitor would be able to defend such a case, unless they had been caught doing it before.

Even then, surely a defendant could argue that they are travelling with a valid ticket and it’s up to the railway to enforce the minimum fare.

This would not be a legitimate argument.

I wonder if the prosecution could successfully be defended on the basis that this is a legal loophole.

No.

Is there anywhere else within the industry where the same ticket with the same Railcard discount has two different fares?

I don't think looking for comparisons is going to be helpful here; I suppose a comparison is related to the Network Railcard but that's not quite the same.

The railway company might themselves be guilty of breach of the terms and conditions as they say they will make ticket restrictions available to passengers when they buy the ticket – not when they buy the Railcard.

There is a case to argue that more could be done to make it clear that these tickets are not valid before 10:00.

There is also a strong argument that people should be charged nothing more than the difference in fares (unless they care caught doing it again).

Obviously, if the defendant can prove that they had meant to use the ticket before 10 and the circumstances have changed that might be an easier way of defending the case.

I don’t know what sort of evidence the court would accept, but surely a defendant who can confirm that they have changed their plans and can produce a written communication predating the journey and witness to testify to that, would help.

It would be interesting to speculate on what sort of appetite the railway company might have for prosecuting the case if they know it’s going to be defended on the basis that this ticket/railcard combination is actually valid?

It's certainly the case that when railway companies, who have many cases to be held on any given court session, become aware that one of their customers has got legal representation, the case has been dropped at that point. It's happened on numerous occasions that I have been aware of, and I must only be aware of a tiny proportion of the occasions where this happens. That doesn't guarantee that it would happen on any given occasion, by any means. And by dropping the case, it avoids the matter being debated by the court, so doesn't bring us any closer to any sort of resolution. Also, the merits of any given case may be very different to other cases.

 

[Haywain]

Firstly I don’t think the railway companies have the authority to declare a ticket valid or invalid.

This is plainly silly - the railway sells tickets with validity that it has specified and therefore it is the railway's decision whether a ticket is valid or not.

 

[Dave_D]

This is plainly silly - the railway sells tickets with validity that it has specified and therefore it is the railway's decision whether a ticket is valid or not.

My point was, that if the railway company wants to decide a ticket is invalid, it has to be able to prove that, possibly to a court, with reference the terms and conditions under which it was issued

They can’t just unilaterally say that the ticket is invalid because they say so.

 

[Haywain]

They can’t just unilaterally say that the ticket is invalid because they say so.

They can.