Restriction Code and Pricing: does it always mean a ticket is valid?

[Kali_1882]

I travelled today from Alton to London Waterloo.

Due to a mix-up and late purchase of ticket, I ended up on the 9:44 train with an Off Peak Day Return (bought with a Network Railcard). I understood that this ticket should only be used from the 10:14 train onwards. Once on the train, I realised that I should have got the 10:14 train and decided to get off at the next station.

However, on studying the e-ticket, I noted that it did not show the restrictions but indicated a code "UV" which on the National Rail Enquiries (NRE) website gave the restrictions as "not being able to arrive into London Terminals before 9:52." Well, I thought, my train arrives after this time at 10:59. So I ended up staying on the train, and spent pretty much the rest of the journey on the internet trying to work out whether my ticket was valid or not.

A ticket inspector did not come to check any tickets on the train (which might have helped clarify things), and at Waterloo I walked to the barrier, scanned my ticket, and it let me through. I tried to ask a few South Western staff members in Waterloo about the ticket validity, but they gave me very generic answers about different ticket types (most did not know the codes I was talking about) and I was told that so long as I arrive after 10am then that would be okay and that my ticket looked valid (especially as it had opened the barriers).

From my searches on the internet, I came across this great forum a number of times, as well as many other sites, including brfares.com, yet I remain confused.

• Was the ticket valid for the 9:44 train?
• If it was valid, why is there a price difference (even if it's slight) between the 9:44 and 10:14 trains
• If it is valid, then doesn't it mean that the first train it can be used on is the 8:44, as that is the first one to arrive after 9:52. So why the price differences?
• The brfares website shows two off-peak tickets with different three-letter codes (SVR and CDR) - what do these mean? Are these in addition to UV code?
• Was it the use of a Network Railcard that confused things?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[hexagon789]

I travelled today from Alton to London Waterloo. Due to a mix-up and late purchase of ticket, I ended up on the 9:44 train with an Off Peak Day Return (bought with a Network Railcard). I understood that this ticket should only be used from the 10:14 train onwards. Once on the train, I realised that I should have got the 10:14 train and decided to get off at the next station. However, on studying the e-ticket, I noted that it did not show the restrictions but indicated a code "UV" which on the nre website gave the restrictions as "not being able to arrive into London Terminals before 9:52." Well, I thought, my train arrives after this time at 10:59. So I ended up staying on the train, and spent pretty much the rest of the journey on the internet trying to work out whether my ticket was valid or not.

A ticket inspector did not come to check any tickets on the train (which might have helped clarify things), and at Waterloo I walked to the barrier, scanned my ticket and it let me through. I tried to ask a few South Western staff members in Waterloo about the ticket validity, but they gave me very generic answers about different ticket types (most did not know the codes I was talking about) and I was told that so long as I arrive after 10am then that would be okay and that my ticket looked valid (especially as it had opened the barriers).

From my searches on the internet, I came across this great forum a number of times, as well as many other sites, including brfares.com, yet I remain confused.

• Was the ticket valid for the 9:44 train?
• If it was valid, why is there a price difference (even if its slight) between the 9:44 and 10:14 trains
• If it is valid then doesn't it mean that the first train it can be used on is the 8:44, as that is the first one to arrive after 9:52. So why the price differences?
• The brfares website shows two off peak tickets with different three letter codes (SVR and CDR) - what do these mean? Are these in addition to UV code?
• Was it the use of a Network Railcard that confused things?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks

I can help with SVR and CDR - these are based on the old names for the Off-Peak Return and Off-Peak Day Return, being Saver for the former and Cheap Day Return for the latter.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Network Card ‘after 1000’ restriction is an extra restriction, on top of the requirements of code UV.

Staff suggesting it was ok to arrive at Waterloo after 1000 were wrong; it’s a restriction on departure time from the origin, in your case Alton. This should be basic stuff for gateline staff really.

You will have agreed to that extra restriction in the Network Card T&C, but it doesn’t get mentioned in ‘UV’ and is not explicitly stated on the ticket. You are deemed to understand your railcard T&C.

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you obtain an itinerary against your ticket? Did you buy online? The Network Railcard is not valid to discount a ticket before 1000 on weekdays.

 

[Haywain]

Was the ticket valid for the 9:44 train?

No, for the reasons stated above concerning the Network Railcard.

If it was valid, why is there a price difference (even if its slight) between the 9:44 and 10:14 trains

Because of the Network Railcard.

If it is valid then doesn't it mean that the first train it can be used on is the 8:44, as that is the first one to arrive after 9:52. So why the price differences?

See above.

The brfares website shows two off peak tickets with different three letter codes (SVR and CDR) - what do these mean? Are these in addition to UV code?

They are different ticket types and ticket type codes, and each could have a different restriction code related to it but in this case they have the same restriction code. The CDR is a one day ticket whilst the SVR is valid for up to one month for the return journey.

Was it the use of a Network Railcard that confused things?

Yes, as detailed above.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Network Railcard is not valid to discount a ticket before 1000 on weekdays.

There are easements on certain flows, though, aren't there? (Not necessarily including the 0944 from Alton to London Waterloo).

 

[Haywain]

There are easements on certain flows, though, aren't there? (Not necessarily including the 0944 from Alton to London Waterloo).

Yes but they are not relevant to the OP.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The Network Card ‘after 1000’ restriction is an extra restriction, on top of the requirements of code UV.

Staff suggesting it was ok to arrive at Waterloo after 1000 were wrong; it’s a restriction on departure time from the origin, in your case Alton. This should be basic stuff for gateline staff really.

And although we're in Fares rather than Disputes here, a point from this for the OP - on this occasion when you used the ticket on the 0944 by accident you got lucky, and were allowed to use the ticket without challenge. But don't repeat the exercise on purpose as there's no guarantee you will get lucky again - instead you may get yourself a penalty fare or even a summons to court.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This can be tested against the forum's ticketing site.

Trying departures on Monday 28th April without a railcard gives a day return price of £ 39.60 on both the 9:44 and 10:14 services.

Adding a Network Railcard leaves the price for the 9:44 unchanged and reduces the price for the 10:14 to £ 26.35

Other widely used railcards are the Senior which changes the prices for both trains to £ 26.35 and the 16-25 which applies that same reduction.

Asking the site to use split tickets with the Network Railcard reduces the price of the 9:44 by splitting at Ash Vale. Presumably it's a departure after 10:00 from there.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The Network Railcard is not valid to discount a ticket before 1000 on weekdays.

There are easements on certain flows, though, aren't there? (Not necessarily including the 0944 from Alton to London Waterloo).

Yes but they are not relevant to the OP.

Just for completeness the current list of easements can be found on the Network Railcard website here.

 

[Kali_1882]

Thank you for all the replies. I see it was the Railcard that was confusing things for me, and I'd just assumed that it only reduced prices on the return journey as I usually travel before 9 and it doesn't reduce the outward ticket price at all. It now makes sense that it kicks in at 10:00.

It also explains why there is a big drop in price between the 9:14 and 9:44 trains. While you can split tickets for both at Brookwood to reduce the price, the 9:44 departure is able to apply a bigger reduction because the Brookwood to Waterloo portion of the journey is after 10 and the Railcard discount can be applied.

I do wonder if there are many staff at Waterloo who could have explained all this. Anyway the government will soon take over SWR and that might simplify ticketing.

 

[redreni]

And although we're in Fares rather than Disputes here, a point from this for the OP - on this occasion when you used the ticket on the 0944 by accident you got lucky, and were allowed to use the ticket without challenge. But don't repeat the exercise on purpose as there's no guarantee you will get lucky again - instead you may get yourself a penalty fare or even a summons to court.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think a summons to court would be legitimate simply for using a Network Railcard discounted ticket before 10am, because of Condition 4.7 of the Network Railcard T&Cs. Although these have recently been amended to enable a Penalty Fare to apply in this circumstance (which wasn't the case up until recently), they still say:

4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:


4.7.1. beyond the station for which your ticket is issued; or
4.7.2. to a destination beyond the area shown on the Network Railcard map (network-railcard.co.uk/map), without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey; or
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

It doesn't say "without prejudice to any other consequence", so I would say one would be entitled to rely on this as a definitive statement of what may happen if you forget about the 10am rule.

Interestingly there is a slight ambiguity as to what it's saying:

Interpretation 1: You will be asked to pay: the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and either (a) the full price applicable fare (or (b) the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area)

Interpretation 2: You will be asked to pay either (a) the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare, or (b) the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area.

In think the usual rule with penalty fares is they're on top of anything already paid for a ticket that isn't valid, but it seems to me they've drafted this such that both interpretations (1 and 2) seem equally plausible, in which case the interpretation more favourable to the consumer should prevail. So the worst that should happen, in theory, is a penalty fare less whatever you paid for the ticket.

 

[Hadders]

I do wonder if there are many staff at Waterloo who could have explained all this.

I doubt it. You're better off asking on here if you want expert advice about fares.

Anyway the government will soon take over SWR and that might simplify ticketing.

Nationalisation is likely to result in fares increasing in price.

Don't believe me? Just take a look at what nationalised LNER are already doing with their 'simplified fares' approach. Be very careful what you wish for.

 

[swt_passenger]

I do wonder if there are many staff at Waterloo who could have explained all this. Anyway the government will soon take over SWR and that might simplify ticketing.

The Network Card 1000 start time (on weekdays) was in place on introduction in 1986, so well before privatisation, SWR being taken over by DOR is unlikely to have any impact on that feature at all.

Seems the oldest staff around will have had almost 40 years to get used to the T&Cs…

 

[yorkie]

I do wonder if there are many staff at Waterloo who could have explained all this.

Very few, if any.

You're best buying tickets from our ticketing site, and asking here if you want advice

Anyway the government will soon take over SWR and that might simplify ticketing.

Feel free to create a new thread; it would belong in Speculative Discussion.

Note that the Government have already started simplifying the fares on LNER, which is Government owned, this has included increasing the cost of return journeys by a significant amount, and taking trains which previously required an "Off Peak" ticket now require Anytime.

There are existing threads on the LNER fares reform, which you may find interesting.

Be careful what you wish for, but this isn't the thread for it!

 

[CyrusWuff]

The Network Card 1000 start time (on weekdays) was in place on introduction in 1986, so well before privatisation, SWR being taken over by DOR is unlikely to have any impact on that feature at all.

If you have a physical Network Railcard, the 1000 restriction is printed on the front of the card as well.