Return train cancelled by Thameslink, they are refusing a refund beyond 50p.

[greatgatsbys]

I bought 2 Super Off Peak Day Return tickets in September for 9th December between Peterborough and London with Thameslink directly. Whilst travelling to London on the train, the announcer said all Thameslink trains back to Peterborough after 5.15pm that day were cancelled. We tried our best to get to the station before 5.15 but couldn't make it due to a pre-booked show running longer than expected. My ticket allowed travel on any of Thameslink's off-peak trains which I chose specifically as I didn't know what time the show would end.

I spent £40 on 2 single tickets back to Peterborough with LNER and requested a refund with Thameslink for the return ticket that I couldn't use. The refund was denied with the reasoning "the ticket has no remaining value". I sent a complaint as by my reasoning, I paid for 2 tickets there and 2 tickets back, and couldn't use the tickets back through no fault of my own, so should be refunded for half of what I paid (as half the service was not provided).

The complaint has resulted in me being refunded 50p for the two tickets, as 2 singles from Peterborough to London are 50p less than I paid for the return tickets. They said they have refunded the difference without an admin fee as it was due to disruption, and pointed me to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, article 29.2, stating I should only get the difference as it's a partially used ticket.

I think it's ridiculous personally. I didn't buy a single, I bought a return and 50% of the service I bought was unable to be provided to me. I also had to pay double the initial amount to get back home. It seems madness that a return is only 25p more per ticket.

Do I have any leg to stand on to fight this more? I am considering the Ombudsman but want to know if I have anywhere to go first, or if it's tough and to never use Thameslink again.

Thanks!

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you ask Thameslink to reroute you in line with your rights? Why did you buy new tickets? Was ticket acceptance not in place with LNER?

 

[furlong]

Or rather, what announcements / guidance was provided to such passengers as it should have been?

It's not the original tickets that needed refunding but you should be reimbursed for the £40 extra you paid needlessly and that's what you needed to request compensation for by submitting the tickets to one of the culpable parties.
Even if you expressed your request incorrectly, the company ought to have been able to work out the right response.

Anyway, nothing gets 'refunded' in these circumstances - use of that word confuses. They breached your contract. They didn't tell you of any alternative so you incurred reasonable additional expenses as a result. They reimburse you that additional cost so you are not out of pocket.

What complicates it is that you don't seem to have appreciated that LNER would almost certainly have been obliged to accept your ticket anyway - you'd no need to get a new one. The NRCoT provides in a different paragraph that train companies will step in when they need to as part of your contract, and another document (the TSA) defines the circumstances when a train company must do this as part of the legal agreement that allows it to run its trains (which includes multiple unexpected cancellations of a company's trains causing more than an hour's delay). There's even a third bit of law (PRO) that (with certain caveats so we don't know if it applies here) places the onus on the company causing the cancellation to offer you appropriate (defined) options (including getting the LNER train of your choice) at no cost to you (even if it means they have to buy you a ticket for it).

So the theory is pretty robust with multiple overlapping safeguards. The implementation however...
It's convenient (cheaper) for a company to assume most people don't know their rights, and sadly the regulators don't seem interested in enforcement.

(In reality, if you wrote to the retailer from which you purchased the extra tickets and explained everything, there's a good chance they would have refunded them. But this is complicated now by the fact you've got those 50ps back - IF you accepted that.)

 

[gray1404]

You should not have purchased new tickets but rather asked staff what to do. They would have been required to get to back to Peterborough on your existing tickets and you would have been able to claim delay repay too.

I would be asking for your complaint to be looked at again. I would expect a refund of the additional tickets purchased and deley repay.

 

[Hadders]

IIRC Services on Saturday 9th December were timetabled to finish earlier than normal due to ASLEF industrial action. It would be helpful to know exactly when the tickets were purchased - was this before the timetable was changed or afterwards.

 

[furlong]

It would be helpful to know exactly when the tickets were purchased - was this before the timetable was changed or afterwards.

Presumably long before.

I bought 2 Super Off Peak Day Return tickets in September for 9th December

Even the industrial action page of NR https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/industrial-action/ manages to mention that

if you decide to travel during a strike period and your chosen train is affected, you may be able to use your ticket on another train company or by an alternative route. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any train company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

I would expect a refund of the additional tickets purchased and deley repay.

Delay? What if taking LNER was faster?

 

[kw12]

IIRC Services on Saturday 9th December were timetabled to finish earlier than normal due to ASLEF industrial action. It would be helpful to know exactly when the tickets were purchased - was this before the timetable was changed or afterwards.

The OP states that the tickets were bought in September.

 

[Hadders]

The OP states that the tickets were bought in September.

In which case I would go back to GTR quoting the page from nationalrail.co.uk.

 

[greatgatsbys]

Hi all, thanks for your comments.

Yes I bought the tickets in September.

The only advice given by Thameslink was get to the station before 5.15 or you can travel on Southern lines with your ticket. Their website said I couldn't use my tickets on another line and had to purchase a new one, so I did. Regrettably I didn't speak to any staff at Kings Cross but assumed they would parrot the website.

Re: accepting the 50p, I guess I haven't as I am disputing it. They have put it into my bank but they did this at the same time as telling me they were refunding me 50p as the outcome of my complaint so I wasn't given the chance to say don't do that.

Is the general consensus that I should request compensation for the LNER tickets I bought instead? I am happy to do this and thought I would have more luck requesting a refund first, but clearly not. Is there any specific wording or regulations I can use?

 

[Hadders]

Is the general consensus that I should request compensation for the LNER tickets I bought instead?

That is what I would do, and reference the page from nationalrail.co.uk quoted above. I doubt they will budge but if you don't get any luck ask them for a deadlock letter and take the case to the Rail Ombudsman (although they aren't great either)

 

[greatgatsbys]

That is what I would do, and reference the page from nationalrail.co.uk quoted above. I doubt they will budge but if you don't get any luck ask them for a deadlock letter and take the case to the Rail Ombudsman (although they aren't great either)

Thank you ever so much. I have sent them my receipt for the LNER tickets and explained what this forum has said and quoted the webpage. Let's see what they come back with now.. It seems bonkers that I can be £40 out of pocket for something beyond my control with Thameslink seemingly not understanding that buying a return means they should get me there and back within that price.

That is what I would do, and reference the page from nationalrail.co.uk quoted above. I doubt they will budge but if you don't get any luck ask them for a deadlock letter and take the case to the Rail Ombudsman (although they aren't great either)

No budge! This was the response:

As I can see that you are aware, there was an amended timetable in place from Friday 1 to Saturday 9 December, this was due to the withdrawal of non-contractual overtime. Having checked your journey, I can see that your intended service from London Kings Cross to Peterborough was not scheduled to run as part of the revised timetable in place.

It is not possible to claim by comparing an amended timetable that has been announced in advance of the date of travel with services that may have been available on a previous date. Whilst I appreciate that you intended to travel after 15:30 the timetable had since been changed. As our records show we were not scheduled to run a service from London Kings Cross to Peterborough as part of the Published Timetable of the Day on 9 December 2023, I’m unable to offer you any compensation on this occasion. I appreciate that this may not be the response you were hoping for, but I hope this helps explain our decision.

I have therefore requested a deadlock letter and we'll see where that gets me.

 

[Watershed]

As I can see that you are aware, there was an amended timetable in place from Friday 1 to Saturday 9 December, this was due to the withdrawal of non-contractual overtime. Having checked your journey, I can see that your intended service from London Kings Cross to Peterborough was not scheduled to run as part of the revised timetable in place.

It is not possible to claim by comparing an amended timetable that has been announced in advance of the date of travel with services that may have been available on a previous date. Whilst I appreciate that you intended to travel after 15:30 the timetable had since been changed. As our records show we were not scheduled to run a service from London Kings Cross to Peterborough as part of the Published Timetable of the Day on 9 December 2023, I’m unable to offer you any compensation on this occasion. I appreciate that this may not be the response you were hoping for, but I hope this helps explain our decision.

I have therefore requested a deadlock letter and we'll see where that gets me.

Unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised by this terrible response. The rail industry seems to think it can come up with whatever "Timetable of the Day" it feels like - as if it were a restaurant! - and palm off customers who bought tickets on the basis of a different timetable.

In a sense they're right, since 90% of people will just turn over and accept being fobbed off. But it's definitely worth pursuing, though I wouldn't hold out hopes of the Ombudsman getting you anywhere. You'll likely have to (threaten to) go to Court to get what you're owed. I've rarely seen a TOC try and defend things once proceedings begin.

 

[James H]

It's a bit off the main point but there was nothing to be gained by buying Super Off Peak tickets so far in advance of travel.

They aren’t quota controlled (so can’t sell out).

 

[Towers]

Unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised by this terrible response. The rail industry seems to think it can come up with whatever "Timetable of the Day" it feels like - as if it were a restaurant! - and palm off customers who bought tickets on the basis of a different timetable.

In a sense they're right, since 90% of people will just turn over and accept being fobbed off. But it's definitely worth pursuing, though I wouldn't hold out hopes of the Ombudsman getting you anywhere. You'll likely have to (threaten to) go to Court to get what you're owed. I've rarely seen a TOC try and defend things once proceedings begin.

Indeed; ideally there ought to be a requirement wherever possible that in the case of publishing a revised timetable for whatever reason some sort of minumum degree of the published long standing timetable must run, perhaps loosely based on a percentage or something similar, and the first & last services need to be provided in some form be that train, bus, taxi etc.

 

[MrJeeves]

It's a bit off the main point but there was nothing to be gained by buying Super Off Peak tickets so far in advance of travel.

Except for being able to claim compensation under PRO/NRCoT if they fail to provide a service you entered into a contract for ahead of time.