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Revenue Protection Officers' obligations under PACE

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Flamingo

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Not that it's actually going to get anywhere though Flamingo. ;)

I wouldn't be so sure of that, either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could one consequence be that fare evasion pursuit be taken on by a seperate organisation, if not BTP then someone operating either inside the railway umbrella, but outside ATOC?

Thus removing the "conflict of interest" situation.

However, I could see this resulting in the removal of the ability to negociate "out of court" settlements, or appeal to the good nature of Customer Service departments to begin with?

Also, TOC's might be quite happy not to have the cost of running a Revenue Protection department (for example, ATW don't, they use an Agency), or the bad PR of prosecuting "customers".
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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I am a practicing lawyer myself, although not an expert in judicial review (PErsonal injury / clinical negligence + some criminal law a few years ago) so I've now approached a few Counsel (ranging from Lord Pannik QC to pro-Bono barristers).

I have no legal qualifications so will not be arguing any legal technicalities.

I'm my skeleton instructons i've mentioned two points for consideration:
1) establish that the railway co's in particular should not be able to have access to administer criminal offences under s18 - a non exhaustive list of reasons:
- the current law already provides adequate remedy (Theft / Fraud Act / civil law)
- policy/floodgate arguments in relation to allowing a private company who subjects such a large section of the public to criminal liability + strict liability offences with these effects should be the province of parliamentary implementation!

The ability to pursue prosecution under Railway Byelaws at least means those convicted receive a criminal record which does not show up under full record checks. I don't believe the same can be said for the alternatives you suggest. As for Parliament I think you will find that the Railway Byelaws are indeed approved by Parliament courtesy of various Transport Acts.

(Do not forget that the TOCs allege to loose 240 mil a year on fare evasion - why do they not install ticket barriers at all stops? Think how much they would save if they had done this in the first place!) no clear indication to passengers that this is a crime (just sea to me that it's all a revenue scam)

Do you really think it would ever be cost effective to have barriers at every single station no matter how remote or lightly used? If this were to be made compulsory it would quickly lead to many stations being closed and threatening complete lines. On the other hand I remember as a child finding it quite normal for far more stations to be staffed than there are today, and access to and from the platforms was nearly always via a staffed "gate" where tickets were inspected manually. However the Treasury/DOT (as was) were so determined to reduce the costs of running the railways that most of the staff was done away with culminating in the disasterous open stations policy of the 1980s. In fact I would suggest that this policy is itself largely to blame for the attitude of so many people that fare evasion is a victimless crime.

The intention not to buy a ticket shouldn't cease when a passenger fails to pay at the first opportunity - it should cease when he passes his final chance to pay. If the TOCs want to allege fare evasion during a passengers journey then they should look to the normal law (stated above) for remedy and prove dishonesty.

I have some sympathy with this point. Unfortunately, as anyone who has ever been involved with ticket checking will confirm, it's often impossible to tell the difference between the genuinely innocent/uninformed and the out-and-out chancers. It seems to me you would prefer a system of revenue protection where one size fits all: however you may be absolutely certain that this would lead to negative consequences for many railway users. It also occurs to me that the only system that would work under your principles would be for journeys to be paid for by smartcard on a pay-as-you-go basis requiring passengers to hold a significant balance on their card making rail travel unaffordable for many.
 

AlterEgo

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Shaw makes a good point about it being difficult to tell between the genuinely uninformed, the chancers and the proper fare evaders.

The question is this - a lot of businesses are the victims of theft or fraud and don't get their own private byelaws, yet they seem to manage.

Why are the railways different?
 

furlong

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Could one consequence be that fare evasion pursuit be taken on by a separate organisation

The underlying issue that bothers me is not the organisation, but that a new fine that requires no dishonesty was introduced without parliamentary awareness and debate when Parliament had previously debated the matter of fare evasion and legislated for a new penalty to apply only in more-narrowly-defined circumstances under which it considered it reasonable to infer a level of dishonest intention to evade the fare. Northern's actions have demonstrated how the DfT, perhaps unwittingly, provided for the introduction of what amounts to a parallel system of penalties (jokingly nicknamed 'Penalty Fakes') lacking the safeguards provided by the Penalty Fares legislation. Penalty Fares are far from perfect and updates to the rules are long overdue as much has changed since they were written, but that shouldn't justify bypassing them completely in this way in my opinion.

If you lose your ticket during your journey, while previously you might still have been required to buy a new one, after this DfT decision, you may also be subject to a fine following prosecution.
 
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najaB

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The question is this - a lot of businesses are the victims of theft or fraud and don't get their own private byelaws, yet they seem to manage.

Why are the railways different?
The only businesses that are really directly comparable are the bus companies, and they have broadly similar powers under the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981.
 

DaveNewcastle

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The intention not to buy a ticket shouldn't cease when a passenger fails to pay at the first opportunity - it should cease when he passes his final chance to pay.
It doesn't.

Bremne v Dubery is an illustration of that intent being found on attempting to exit. The very authority which you referred to. Is there some confusion here?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Shaw makes a good point about it being difficult to tell between the genuinely uninformed, the chancers and the proper fare evaders.

The question is this - a lot of businesses are the victims of theft or fraud and don't get their own private byelaws, yet they seem to manage.

Why are the railways different?

Railways are different in as much as they do not sell a tangible product but a service, and that service is not "consumed" by the customer at a single location. As previously mentioned there were far fewer problems when the majority of stations were staffed and access to platforms more strictly controlled even without automated gates.

Also the early railways were amongst the first organisations with a very wide geographical reach and the customer environment (ie onboard trains themselves) necessarily kept people in close proximity to each other with little possibility of quick egress, hence requiring the byelaws to govern behaviour.
 

furlong

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I suspect there may be something of an open door in challenging the private prosecution of strict liability offences.

That might well be an avenue to pursue.

As another example, just consider the complexity of the ticketing system now and how there can be disagreements over validity even amongst experts! But there is no middle ground in the byelaw - a ticket is either valid or it is not. Holding a rational and reasonable belief that the ticket is valid is no defence if it turns out to be wrong.

The private companies, not satisfied with the need to show some level of dishonesty under RORA or Penalty Fares, and with the approval of the DfT, created an offence that makes criminals of honest people whose behaviour was entirely reasonable, with no application of discretion or any public interest test (c.f. the public prosecutor).
 

DaveNewcastle

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As previously mentioned there were far fewer problems when the majority of stations were staffed and access to platforms more strictly controlled even without automated gates.
Are we sure about this?
In my very imprecise and incomplete 'research' into railway passenger prosecutions, I had arrived at the opposite conclusion. It seemed to me that there were thousands of prosecutions for various forms of fare evasion in the 1800's, and that it was the high standards of evidence gathering required to cause a summons to be issued for an offence of fraud or theft which led to the specific offences which were written into the early railway statutes (and which evolved though Railway Clauses Consolidation Acts into the current Regulation of Railways Act).

But Stiri is concerned with the Railway Byelaws, which as secondary legislation, fall into a different regime of analysis.

The private companies, not satisfied with the need to show some level of dishonesty under RORA or Penalty Fares, and with the approval of the DfT, created an offence that makes criminals of honest people whose behaviour was entirely reasonable, with no application of discretion or any public interest test (c.f. the public prosecutor).
I will disregard your introduction of opinion, and refute your claim that any legislation, primary or secondary, "makes criminals of honest people . . . .".
Of course honest people can commit crimes. It is irrational to propose that 'honest people' cannot be 'made' criminal by virtue of their actions, choices or neglect.

I'm happy to support a critical analysis of the legislative framework, but as we have Byelaws which were introduced long before the DfT was conceived, and have evolved with time to regulate behaviour on the railways which includes imposing a penalty on those who travel without a ticket and do so by their own choosing.

Lets not conflate the issues and thereby confuse Stiri in her/his attempt to challenge a principle which might succeed.
. . . As another example, just consider the complexity of the ticketing system now and how there can be disagreements over validity even amongst experts!
Let's not. That 'complexity' is of absolutely NO assistance in challeging the underlying problem.
created an offence that makes criminals of honest people whose behaviour was entirely reasonable, with no application of discretion or any public interest test (c.f. the public prosecutor).
I'm not sure what point you are making here. There are compelling and impressive reasons for enabling private prosecutions, notably in the spheres of creativity, environmental management and economic and educational growth, despite this forum's administration's absolute opposition to private prosecutions.

In contrast, I am an enthusiastic supporter of the right of an individual, an incorporated body, a charitable body or other group to have the ability to prosecute a crime when they find one.

In E v Duckenfield [2000] 1 WLR 55, the Court found that held that the very premise of section 6(1) is that some cases will go to trial which the DPP himself would choose not to prosecute.

The idea of applying a "public interest" test to a "private prosecution" involves a contradition in terms. It's either public or it is private. There is regular discussion of the "public interest" when private prosecutions come to Court. I'd be pleased to hear exactly what point of public interest is not engaged by bringing a prosecution for fare evasion, such as that in Bremme.

In R, Virgin v Zinga, the LCJ said in the Court of Appeal, Criminal Division:
“…the retrenchment of the state is evident in many areas, including the funding of the Crown Prosecution Service … it seems inevitable that the number of private prosecutions will increase, particularly in areas relating to the criminal misuse of intellectual property. In the overwhelming majority of such cases, a prosecution will serve the public interest in addressing such criminal conduct.”
 
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35B

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I remember as a child finding it quite normal for far more stations to be staffed than there are today, and access to and from the platforms was nearly always via a staffed "gate" where tickets were inspected manually. However the Treasury/DOT (as was) were so determined to reduce the costs of running the railways that most of the staff was done away with culminating in the disasterous open stations policy of the 1980s. In fact I would suggest that this policy is itself largely to blame for the attitude of so many people that fare evasion is a victimless crime.
No argument with your conclusion, but I remember the late lamented Gerard Fiennes writing proudly of introducing the paytrain policy on Eastern Region well back in the 1960s as a way of reducing costs- not just staff, but also stations.

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crehld

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despite this forum's administration's absolute opposition to private prosecutions.

You keep taking these unfair swipes targeted at forum staff and forum bias. I do find it rather disappointing that such a well respected contributor who has a well deserved reputation for accuracy and insight persists in undermining that credibility by making such unfounded claims. It seems to me perfectly legitimate to hold an opinion about private prosecutions, which may not correspond with yours.

Anyway, so to engage in a critical analysis of the legislative framework we're striving for I hope you'll indulge me in the following:

I don't think the issue is with private prosecutions per se. As you say there are many benefits which I recognize. But I think a lot of people's concern (mine included of course) lies with oversight of the process - perhaps this is what people mean when they talk about the "public interest" test?

Pursuit of private prosecutions in the rail industry is well established as we all know. We also know that railway companies are very receptive to avoiding prosecution, despite threatening it, through payment of an administrative penalty, to the point railway companies now proactively make passenger's an offer. And we know such settlements may be advantageous to a railway company pursuing a prosecution, given the resources involved in bringing a case to court, the fact the company directly receives and retains 100% of the settlement, and the risk that a court may not award costs/compensation to the company consumate to the amount it has had to invest in bringing the case to court.

The issue is with how private prosecutions in the railway industry work de facto, rather than the de jure principles underpinning them. We know for a fact that law abiding passengers who have committed no crime are erroneously targeted for prosecution (even if no prosecution actually proceeds) or subject to unwarranted investigation. And we know for a fact law abiding passengers are even summonsed to court despite a lack of evidence of wrong-doing or even possible success of prosecution (I speak from personal experience). Of course this is only a minority of cases, but it is nevertheless one area of concern, not only for those wrongly accused, but also for its potential to waste courts' ever stretched time and resources.

Simply saying "well the innocent person has nothing to fear by a prosecution in court - they'll be found not guilty" doesn't account for the fact that adequate legal representation isn't accessible to all (as your sensible advice is to many on here, it is often necessary to engage a local solicitor familiar with criminal law if one is to 'fight' a case in court and hope for any chance of success) and comes at a cost which not all can meet. Nor does it account for the 'psychology' (for want of a better term) of the out of court administrative settlement.

Which brings me to the second area of concern. How many people are threatened with prosecution, a court appearance, possible fine, and even potentially a criminal record, yet are given the option to dispose of it all and make it all quickly go away with the payment of a simple administrative settlement? How many people cough up having been threatened with prosecution and informed of all the possible nasty outcomes, despite having done no wrong? If the answer to this is even suspected to be greater than zero (as I suspect it is) then there's a problem with the system. It's not fair. It's not just. And, fundamentally, it undermines trust in the system (see every other thread in this section of the forum).

Some independent oversight over the whole system, which outside of the court room itself is currently lacking, might therefore serve to allay some of these concerns. And, indeed, would enhance the credibility of private prosecutions, even among sceptics, which I assume any enthusiastic support of private prosecutions would have no objection to. Indeed, it's hard to find any argument against putting in place such independent oversight.
 

najaB

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You keep taking these unfair swipes targeted at forum staff and forum bias. I do find it rather disappointing that such a well respected contributor who has a well deserved reputation for accuracy and insight persists in undermining that credibility by making such unfounded claims. It seems to me perfectly legitimate to hold an opinion about private prosecutions, which may not correspond with yours.
I think it is fair to say that one of the more vocal members of the adminstration team has stated his position on the topic quite forcefully on a number of occasions, so much so that it's not always clear what is personal v official opinion.

Certainly I can understand how Dave could have come be of the mind that he appears to be in.
 

crehld

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I think it is fair to say that one of the more vocal members of the adminstration team has stated his position on the topic quite forcefully on a number of occasions, so much so that it's not always clear what is personal v official opinion.

Certainly I can understand how Dave could have come be of the mind that he appears to be in.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. This equally applies to forum staff - indeed one would expect it on a forum designed to engage in discussion. There's certainly no evidence, however, that there is an official forum position or inherent bias among the staff towards one particular view, particularly if, as you claim, such a view is held by one person. To make such a claim is wholly false, potentially defamatory, and undermines the reputation of this forum which despite personal positions held by a great many number of contributors, including forum staff, facilitates a balanced and well-informed discussion with contributions on all sides of the debate. (it's what attracted me to the forum in the first place).
 

Flamingo

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On a side note, maybe it would be worth considering when moderators are making an "official" post, put it in a red font, for example, to differentiate from them posting in a personal capacity..

I post on another forum where this works well.
 

Greenback

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Everyone's entitled to an opinion. This equally applies to forum staff - indeed one would expect it on a forum designed to engage in discussion. There's certainly no evidence, however, that there is an official forum position or inherent bias among the staff towards one particular view, particularly if, as you claim, such a view is held by one person. To make such a claim is wholly false, potentially defamatory, and undermines the reputation of this forum which despite personal positions held by a great many number of contributors, including forum staff, facilitates a balanced and well-informed discussion with contributions on all sides of the debate. (it's what attracted me to the forum in the first place).

I do not think I have ever stated that I am opposed to private prosecutions, and I find it disappointing that I have been labelled, at least by association, as having such a view. Basically because it isn't my view at all.
 

AlterEgo

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Back onto the private prosecutions issue (and bear in mind I am a layman not a lawyer):

I don't have anything against private prosecutions in principle as a point of law.

My objections to it are roughly the same as the ones that crehld outlines upthread.

So what's the solution? My 2p:

1) The railway byelaws need a modern refresh, fit for the 21st Century. The byelaws are necessary, but criminalise far too many people, and the enforcement of them varies wildly from TOC to TOC.
2) I'd oppose private prosecutions for all strict liability offences, including for failing to show a valid ticket.
3) I'd support the continuance of private prosecutions for RoRA offences.
4) I'd support and encourage the setting up of an independent body to pursue such prosecutions. It would reduce the suspicion of "vested interest" and "sharp practice" among TOCs. It would also remove the burden of prosecution from TOCs which had a strong brand culture (In my two years with Virgin, I recall only one prosecution, which was for a RoRA offence, and quite obvious and egregious season ticket fraud worth over £7,000).

Who would that independent body be?

We'd need to think carefully about that. RPSS and IPFAS are rightly criticised as not being independent enough. The BTP are already completely stretched with more serious crimes, so let's strike them out at the outset.

In my view, a whole new body needs setting up, outwith the traditional railway structure. Its senior management should initially come from regulatory or enforcement backgrounds. RPIs and RPOs at all existing TOCs would be transferred to this new body (would TUPE apply? Maybe not?), and wear a single uniform regardless of which TOC they were enforcing upon. I could delve deeper into other things that would encourage culture change and independence but I'll keep things high level for the benefit of the post.

This is probably an unpopular proposal (and perhaps a bit "blue sky thinking"), but the current arrangement isn't working and thought should be given as to how things might change.
 

Flamingo

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From the point of view of somebody who checks tickets (when other more important tasks do not need my attention), I would, if pushed, agree that the current system is not working.

In my experience, there is a disregard for the current bylaws amongst a large proportion of the travelling public, and an assumption that they can be safely ignored as the chances of prosecution for breaking bylaws (or indeed, anything more than buying the ticket that should have been bought at the start of the journey) is vanishingly small.

Maybe an independent "Revenue Protection Corps" might be better resourced and have a broader reach, from the point of view of revenue protection and image.
 
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Tetchytyke

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This is probably an unpopular proposal (and perhaps a bit "blue sky thinking"), but the current arrangement isn't working and thought should be given as to how things might change.

I would take your proposal one stage further, and prevent the TOCs from receiving any income from prosecutions or "administrative penalties", with the income instead reverting to DfT. *ETA: In my ideal sugar-coated world the revenue would actually be used to fund a truly independent ombudsman with real teeth, similar to what we see in the personal finance industry.

The main issue for me remains ticket retailing, especially in PTE areas where fares are low. Serco/Abellio's standard admin penalty was £80 plus the cost of the fare; one would comfortably assume that the profit margin on these penalties was at least 50%. £40 from one passenger is often about £35 more than the fare the passenger would have paid.

I have no problem with the penalty being higher, as it should be a disincentive to fare dodging. But the issue is that the penalty was also a disincentive to the TOC to provide adequate ticketing facilities at the origin station. The TOC's incentive should be to get the passenger to the ticket office before they board the train, but the "Penalty Fake" system gives them the perverse incentive to reduce ticket retailing and revenue protection measures at the origin. Giving the ticket revenue to the TOC but not giving them the "Penalty Fake" revenue is a good way of removing this incentive, and I can't help but wonder whether it would change the attitude of some TOCs' revenue protection staff (especially the subcontracted ones).

I still remain of the view that Byelaws issues should be a civil not a criminal matter, just as non-payment for consumption of other services (e.g. water, utilities, private parking charges) remains a civil matter. These matters should be dealt with by the bulk processing unit at Northampton County Court, where the instigator pays the fee, rather than burdening the creaking Magistrates Court system with the cost of enforcement. But I don't have a problem with TOCs being able to privately prosecute clear cases of fraud or dishonesty.
 
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techno

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I will reiterate, there is nothing wrong with a civil law penalty to remedy these kind of situations.

The Metrolink are so much better at dealing with this situation.

They are very clear that you can not purchase a ticket on the tram and will fine you £50/£100 on the spot... (I've been fined for this before, and I've never bloody got on the tram without a ticket again) - that's very clear and it's effective/proportionate deterrent. They also have ticket machines at every stop.
All this waffle about it being too hard for TOC's to implement ticket machiens at every stop is nonsense considering they loose £240 mil a year from fare evasion.

But TOC's seem to have this strange operation where very little is done to promote that passengers are committing a criminal offence (I know ignorance is not a deference - but come on, get real!!) (with no intent)
and will offer to sell you a ticket on the train... until one day you loose your ticket or similar, and the OP thinks they have some sort of chance to negotiate with a Revenue Inspector, who will then just issue a caution!

It's absolutely ridiculous!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have no legal qualifications so will not be arguing any legal technicalities.

I am a lawyer, and I can assure you that even I don't know the full technicalities of the situation (if you don't practice this kind of law, and further, how to conduct Judaical review, then one doesn't really stand a chance...) But lay views and opinions are just as informative and give perspective and add to the discussion...

I can only vaguely navigate the direction of my argument/case against all this, having studied and practiced law for 7 years you get a reasonably Ok sense of things like public policy considerations and mechanisms which the court can make decisions in these types of circumstances.

The specific answers for all of this will be from the advice of a Barrister on how is best to approach the case and what angle to attack (hence why I don't know at this point what specific part I would like to challenge).
 

Clip

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I will reiterate, there is nothing wrong with a civil law penalty to remedy these kind of situations.

The Metrolink are so much better at dealing with this situation.

They are very clear that you can not purchase a ticket on the tram and will fine you £50/£100 on the spot... (I've been fined for this before, and I've never bloody got on the tram without a ticket again) - that's very clear and it's effective/proportionate deterrent. They also have ticket machines at every stop.
All this waffle about it being too hard for TOC's to implement ticket machiens at every stop is nonsense considering they loose £240 mil a year from fare evasion.

But TOC's seem to have this strange operation where very little is done to promote that passengers are committing a criminal offence (I know ignorance is not a deference - but come on, get real!!) (with no intent)
and will offer to sell you a ticket on the train... until one day you loose your ticket or similar, and the OP thinks they have some sort of chance to negotiate with a Revenue Inspector, who will then just issue a caution!

It's absolutely ridiculous!

Id say we lose far more than that amount however that estimate is based roughly on how many people are penalised per year I gaurantee you that it is far higher. Now we could install ticket machines everywhere however when they get vandalised and broken into this then puts them out of service for other passengers and the costs then increase to the tOC for repairs and such like.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/chiltern-railways-stations-hit-by-ticket-machine-thefts-1-611685

No bear in mind these stations are all in areas surrounded by people who live close by and this happenned at a couple of stations more than once in a few months and from the footage I saw they were very quick too. They also hit FGW at stations that had people living near by.

Now you want these at some remote stations too? How deep are your pockets to pay for these and their upkeep? Because paying for people to move cash betwenn them also involves personal security to those people also - more costs - and you are naive to think the TOCs will just bear that cost themselves.
 

Flamingo

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Stiri, I'm sure other posters are as curious as I am, what has brought about your (apparently sudden) desire to repeal the railway bylaws?

It's not exactly the most high-profile legal cause for a campaigning young lawyer to be volunteering pro-bono to put to rights.
 

Tetchytyke

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No bear in mind these stations are all in areas surrounded by people who live close by and this happenned at a couple of stations more than once in a few months and from the footage I saw they were very quick too. They also hit FGW at stations that had people living near by.

Up here in Geordieland the Metro is TVM-only, there are no ticket offices, and nearly all the stations are unstaffed. Some of these stations are in really very dodgy parts of town, yet we don't have the same issues with vandalism and theft. The machines are installed in such a way that you can't get at them very easily.

What is it about the equipment the TOCs are choosing to buy that makes them so easy to steal from and vandalise?
 

techno

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Stiri, I'm sure other posters are as curious as I am, what has brought about your (apparently sudden) desire to repeal the railway bylaws?

It's not exactly the most high-profile legal cause for a campaigning young lawyer to be volunteering pro-bono to put to rights.

Because I have been subject to this nonsense and risk my practicing certificate... I was late for the train in two occasions. The ticket inspector sold me a ticket the first time... The very next week they refused to sell me a ticket again an cautioned me so I am now at risk of being struck off. so I guess you can say my
Interest in this matter is as what any other defendant/appellant who has ever brought a case to cout has... Pretty normal if you ask me...
 

Clip

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Up here in Geordieland the Metro is TVM-only, there are no ticket offices, and nearly all the stations are unstaffed. Some of these stations are in really very dodgy parts of town, yet we don't have the same issues with vandalism and theft. The machines are installed in such a way that you can't get at them very easily.

What is it about the equipment the TOCs are choosing to buy that makes them so easy to steal from and vandalise?
A lot of those were built into the station where possible though which makes a difference as they can then be accesssed from behind more sturdy protection.

Everything is easy if you know how to do it - maybe on the Metro they have a more regular regieme of collecting the money from them but I doubt they are any more difficult to break into.

The problem with heavy railagainst light is that they will inevitably hold more money y- if a booking office closes at 1400 then it needs to have enough of a float to carry it over till 0600 - and whilst this is no different on the metro the fares certainly are which require a much bigger float to be kept in them which in turn makes it a better target than something with only 50 in coins in.

Of course the onset of more card usage reduces the risk but its still apparent - and as such if you ever make it to West Ruislip you will find bollards in front of the TVM( or there was) to prevent access.
 

Clip

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Because I have been subject to this nonsense and risk my practicing certificate... I was late for the train in two occasions. The ticket inspector sold me a ticket the first time... The very next week they refused to sell me a ticket again an cautioned me so I am now at risk of being struck off. so I guess you can say my
Interest in this matter is as what any other defendant/appellant who has ever brought a case to cout has... Pretty normal if you ask me...

Ahh so you being late - twice - and not following the rules you are now taking out yoru anger on the byelaws due to your own inability to sort your own life out.

yes we are always late at times for many things but we do either two things - wait and buy a ticket and be even more late and this is my always fall back option as once youre late it wont matter by how much, or, in yoru case you risked it again and got caught again.

Life and the choices we make all come with consequences im afraid and whilst I do agree our byelaws should be looked at again, in this instance I feel its a case of looking at your own life and how you can manage yoru time better and try and manage that better rather than a personal crusadfe to get your penalty repealed(which is your ultimate reason for doing this isnt it)
 

najaB

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Everyone's entitled to an opinion. This equally applies to forum staff - indeed one would expect it on a forum designed to engage in discussion.
I'm in no way trying to stifle discussion or say that people can't hold whatever opinion they want. I was just pointing out what may have lead to Dave's comment.
 

Haywain

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4) I'd support and encourage the setting up of an independent body to pursue such prosecutions. It would reduce the suspicion of "vested interest" and "sharp practice" among TOCs.
There have been a few suggestions of vested interests in this thread, particularly relating to out of court settlements. I would just point out that in such cases there are two parties who have a vested interest - the TOC and the person caught without a ticket. In the latter case many find that there is considerably more than a fine at stake as the OP has indicated.
 

cookie365

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I don't get this.

If the OP thinks that there is a PACE requirement that wasn't satisfied then surely they plead not guilty. What's the point of a JR?
 
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