Revenue Protection Taking Tickets

[jonbyrne]

Good Afternoon

This is a great forum, I have been reading it for a few months and finally got my self in gear to register.

Anyway to my question, I travel to Manchester Piccadilly everyday from Stockport and on arrival in Manchester there are Nothern Revenue Protection Teams covering the exits from platforms 10, 11, 13 & 14 and randomly other platforms that Northern trains arrive on.

I have a season ticket so no real issue for me, but everyday I see other passengers showing their Singles or part of their returns having them taken from their hands by the inspectors. They do not really get a choice and I have seen a few heated debates about it, I also see quite a few people who just look confused and not sure what to do.

So my question is, should they be doing this and are they allowed to? The added complication is that many of these tickets would allow travel on the Metrolink through this City Centre so they are depriving people of this, I guess if they are regulars they would know but the occasional traveller would not know.

 

[island]

Tickets remain property of the train companies, so yes they may withdraw a ticket that has no further validity remaining. A passenger should be allowed to retain on request a ticket which has Metrolink validity. I was about to post that I would be surprised if they were retaining tickets which might be used on the tram, but the staff members at that particular station have, in the experience of many forum members, poor knowledge of ticket validity.

 

[bb21]

They should not be retaining tickets issued to Manchester CTLZ, which have validity on Metrolink, nor should they be retaining the vast majority of walk-on tickets issued to Manchester Stns, as they are valid for onwards travel to places such as Oxford Rd and Victoria. I would be surprised if the passenger is refused his request for such purposes and would be lodging strong complaints with Northern in that case.

 

[323235]

I had this happen to me with a Manchester STNS ticket and I asked for it back with no problem when I explained that it still had further validity I may wish to make use of later.

 

[transmanche]

So my question is, should they be doing this and are they allowed to?

When I was young, the man or woman at the ticket barrier was known as a 'ticket collector'. Which explains it all really...

 

[jonbyrne]

Thanks for the replies. I just wonder how many people who are travelling into Manchester for shopping do not think about keeping it until its too late.

 

[Flamingo]

I sometimes have had people who complain when they give me a ticket and I point out it is invalid (stamped, or something else makes me pretty damn sure they have used it before, like it's a 5 day outward for a previous day, but they don't have the return to show me), and I won't give it back. Now I do give it back - ripped in half .

 

[beeza1]

If you wish to lodge a complaint with the TOC regarding a delay or whatever, the TOC will not even consider it unless you have the ticket to prove you actually made the trip, I know this from experience with Northern, I had foolishly binned my ticket after being subjected to an almost 3 hour delay, fair enough, but the next time I was delayed, by over an hour this time, I sent my ticket with my complaint and got compensation, albeit in travel vouchers valid on any train, not just Northern, this was OK for me but I can understand the occasional rail user would prefer a monetary form of compensation.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have had a word with my CTM's about this and they have said they will look into it, like has been mentioned they have further validity and should NOT be taken

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you wish to lodge a complaint with the TOC regarding a delay or whatever, the TOC will not even consider it unless you have the ticket to prove you actually made the trip, . . .

I strongly disagree.
I'm sure any legitimate complaint will be considered with the dilligence it deserves, based on its merits and the adequacy of its information - with or without a ticket. I will agree that a ticket or the details on a ticket might help in identifying the subject matter of the complaint, but that is all.

. . . . I can understand the occasional rail user would prefer a monetary form of compensation.

That is probably true, but I'm not sure I understand what compensation has to do with the subject; unless you turn the question on its head and try to answer this question: "How do I maximise the prospects of claiming Compensation from a Company?" in which case maximising the documentation would form part of the answer.

 

[wintonian]

This also occurs at Portsmouth & Southsea where tickets to Portsmouth Stns are retained by the barriers, I did once query it and was told that having now alighted there my ticket was no longer valid for onward travel. I tried to use the example of London Terminals tickets being returned by the barriers at Wterloo, to which I was told did not happen and and was thus practically branded a liar. :roll: :-x

 

[jonbyrne]

I have had a word with my CTM's about this and they have said they will look into it, like has been mentioned they have further validity and should NOT be taken

Thanks it will be interesting to see if it changes.

I like your signature, reminds me of the EMT Guard who on arrival at Man Picc a month ago or so who on a very busy 4 car train realised as we pulled into platform 14 had left her T Key at the other end of the train, it took an age for her to get to the other end of the train and open the doors.

 

[beeza1]

I strongly disagree.
I'm sure any legitimate complaint will be considered with the dilligence it deserves, based on its merits and the adequacy of its information - with or without a ticket. I will agree that a ticket or the details on a ticket might help in identifying the subject matter of the complaint, but that is all.

After I was subjected to the 3 hour delay I contacted Northern and was TOLD I needed to provide my ticket to enable them to investigate my complaint, as I no longer had my ticket I assumed I couldn't pursue it, perhaps the information I was given was wrong. It was at least 2 years ago. perhaps the rules have changed.

 

[6Gman]

They should not be retaining tickets issued to Manchester CTLZ, which have validity on Metrolink, nor should they be retaining the vast majority of walk-on tickets issued to Manchester Stns, as they are valid for onwards travel to places such as Oxford Rd and Victoria. I would be surprised if the passenger is refused his request for such purposes and would be lodging strong complaints with Northern in that case.

Is a ticket from the south to Manchester Stations really valid to Victoria? And, if so, by what route(s)?

If valid Piccadilly - Salford Crescent - Victoria that would save me a few Salford Central - Victoria singles !! (Don't ask )

 

[embers25]

This also occurs at Portsmouth & Southsea where tickets to Portsmouth Stns are retained by the barriers, I did once query it and was told that having now alighted there my ticket was no longer valid for onward travel. I tried to use the example of London Terminals tickets being returned by the barriers at Wterloo, to which I was told did not happen and and was thus practically branded a liar. :roll: :-x

Tickets to Luton are swallowed by barriers at Luton airport which is bloody annoying.Also very annoying is the barriers at St pancras EMT platforms not accepting Guildford to Luton tickets.

 

[craigwilson]

Is a ticket from the south to Manchester Stations really valid to Victoria? And, if so, by what route(s)?

If valid Piccadilly - Salford Crescent - Victoria that would save me a few Salford Central - Victoria singles !! (Don't ask )

It is valid to Victoria, but unfortunately not by that route!!

The "MANCHESTER CTLZ" notation on the ticket, standing for "Central Zone", confers validity on the Metrolink in the central "City" zone of the Metrolink, bounded by Deansgate-Castlefield and Victoria.

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/Documents/Metrolink-System-Map.pdf

"MANCHESTER STNS" tickets are definitely not valid for onward travel to Victoria if the train terminates at Piccadilly, or passes through Piccadilly, Oxford Road, and Deansgate. This is because Salford Central is not part of the Manchester Stations group, and until the Ordsall Chord is complete, there's no way to get between Picc and Vic on a train without going via Salford!

 

[Tracky]

Im pleased they are retaining invalid tickets at the end of the journey. Far too often I have caught people trying to use the ticket sold to them on the train the previous day on one particular route.

 

[kieron]

It is valid to Victoria, but unfortunately not by that route!!

The "MANCHESTER CTLZ" notation on the ticket, standing for "Central Zone", confers validity on the Metrolink in the central "City" zone of the Metrolink, bounded by Deansgate-Castlefield and Victoria.

Which ticket is this? The shortest route from Picadilly to Victoria by rail goes through Salford Crescent, and each station on the route is within Manchester Group, so it should be fine provided 6Gman only uses it in one direction.

Even if he is using a MANCHESTER CTLZ ticket, it doesn't take away validity via Salford.

 

[craigwilson]

Which ticket is this? The shortest route from Picadilly to Victoria by rail goes through Salford Crescent, and each station on the route is within Manchester Group, so it should be fine provided 6Gman only uses it in one direction.

Even if he is using a MANCHESTER CTLZ ticket, it doesn't take away validity via Salford.

I think it does. Manchester Group is, as I understand, a group of stations used for the purpose of fare-setting, and I'm assuming involves Salford. Manchester Stations, on the other hand is a location group, to allow a flexible choice of route into Manchester from a given origin, where valid. Salford is not a "Manchester Station", as far as I'm aware.

Perhaps one of the more knowledgable members of the forum could verify the distiction between the two.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Im pleased they are retaining invalid tickets at the end of the journey. Far too often I have caught people trying to use the ticket sold to them on the train the previous day on one particular route.

So what about:

1 - Tickets that are still valid on onward journeys?
2 - Cases where the ToC insists you must still have your ticket and provide that as proof of your journey if you are claiming compensation for delays and such?

The same issue happens in quite a lot of places, and the use of electronic barriers doesn't help this!

 

[Clip]

So my question is, should they be doing this and are they allowed to? The added complication is that many of these tickets would allow travel on the Metrolink through this City Centre so they are depriving people of this, I guess if they are regulars they would know but the occasional traveller would not know.

I dont doubt that some tickets may be retained but as you dont see their tickets how can you be so sure?

Though if they are retaining such tickets then that is quite wrong and I hope ANGs word in their shell would stop this practice from happenning.

 

[34D]

I think it does. Manchester Group is, as I understand, a group of stations used for the purpose of fare-setting, and I'm assuming involves Salford. Manchester Stations, on the other hand is a location group, to allow a flexible choice of route into Manchester from a given origin, where valid. Salford is not a "Manchester Station", as far as I'm aware.

Perhaps one of the more knowledgable members of the forum could verify the distiction between the two.

Manchester Routeing Group is listed on the ATOC website:

MANCHESTER GROUP DEANSGATE G-MEX MANCHESTER OXFORD ROAD MANCHESTER PICCADILLY MANCHESTER VICTORIA SALFORD CENTRAL SALFORD CRESCENT

There is an informative article on wikipedia which explains Manchester Stations and also lists other groups and defunct ones.

Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Victoria. NOTE Deansgate and Salford Central were included in the group until January 1989. By 2005, Deansgate was included again.

Offtopic - look how little the cost of a railcard-discounted bedford-croydon return has changed by!

 

[craigwilson]

Manchester Routeing Group is listed on the ATOC website:

Not the same as "Manchester Stations" though!! These are routeing groups, not station groups (to give a common location for ticketing purposes).

For example London Group includes Bethnal Green, which is NOT a "London Terminal" and does not include Vauxhall which is.

Manchester Group as described in that document is not the same as "Manchester Stations".

 

[Welshman]

Not the same as "Manchester Stations" though!! These are routeing groups, not station groups (to give a common location for ticketing purposes).

Manchester Group as described in that document is not the same as "Manchester Stations".

Yet if you enquire of services from North Wales to Manchester Victoria on the NRE website, it will advise you to change either at Earlestown/Newton-le-Willows, or Manchester Oxford Rd and Salford Crescent.

The fare is the same as that quoted to Manchester Piccadilly, and the ticket is printed to "Manchester Stations"

I have used the Salford Crescent route when it has been pouring-down and I've not fancied a walk across Manchester or paying the extra Metro fare, and my ticket has not been queried on alighting at Victoria.

 

[railboy]

I once had tickets retained by staff at the ticket gates and the result was I was unable to claim back the fare from the person paying for my travel on that particular journey. I have since been told by Citizens Advice that this practice is unlawful because your ticket is evidence of your contract with the company for your carriage and you are entitled to retain that evidence indefinately. Withdrawing tickets from you would be a breach of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 as an operator cannot hold terms saying this evidence of contract is their property. Evidence of a contract is your property and no terms of conditions can change the law. Therefore taking it from you is stealing and I should phone the police if I felt intimdated in this respect. Informing staff of this has worked and I've never had any problems since.

 

[transmanche]

I have since been told by Citizens Advice that this practice is unlawful because your ticket is evidence of your contract with the company for your carriage and you are entitled to retain that evidence indefinately.

Or you can just get a receipt when you purchase the tickets...

 

[wintonian]

I once had tickets retained by staff at the ticket gates and the result was I was unable to claim back the fare from the person paying for my travel on that particular journey. I have since been told by Citizens Advice that this practice is unlawful because your ticket is evidence of your contract with the company for your carriage and you are entitled to retain that evidence indefinately. Withdrawing tickets from you would be a breach of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 as an operator cannot hold terms saying this evidence of contract is their property. Evidence of a contract is your property and no terms of conditions can change the law. Therefore taking it from you is stealing and I should phone the police if I felt intimdated in this respect. Informing staff of this has worked and I've never had any problems since.

Some rail staff would argue that you should request a receipt and that is your evidence of having formed a contract.

 

[AndyLandy]

Isn't the usual response to that that a receipt is "proof of purchase, but not proof of travel"

I don't understand why TOCs make a big fuss about this, just put a tear along the magstripe and give the ticket back to the customer.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I once had tickets retained by staff at the ticket gates and the result was I was unable to claim back the fare from the person paying for my travel . . .
. . . told by Citizens Advice that this practice is unlawful because your ticket is evidence of your contract with the company for your carriage and you are entitled to retain that evidence indefinately . . . .

It is generally thought by those working in Consumer Law and Criminal Law that the well-established principles and history of their diciplines will apply to passengers on the Railways.
They do not.
The Railways have their own body of Legislation.
That might go some way towards explaining the extraordinarily high cost which those Solicitors who specialise in Railway disputes will charge.

The ticket is, indeed, evidence of the Contract, but as island has said, the Ticket remains the Property of the Railway Company and as wintonian has said, a receipt can be provided (though not from all machines).

It is regrettable that someone at the CAB appears to have strayed beyond their area of competence on this occasion.

 

[wintonian]

It is generally thought by those working in Consumer Law and Criminal Law that the well-established principles and history of their diciplines will apply to passengers on the Railways.
They do not.
The Railways have their own body of Legislation.

ironically in relation to this, it is normally also the receipt that forms the primary evidence of contract where there has been a sale of goods.