Revenue Protection Taking Tickets

[IanXC]

It is generally thought by those working in Consumer Law and Criminal Law that the well-established principles and history of their diciplines will apply to passengers on the Railways.
They do not.
The Railways have their own body of Legislation.

Although for the record I think I'm right in saying this has never been tested in Court, and that the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations do not specifically exclude rail travel.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Although for the record I think I'm right in saying this has never been tested in Court, and that the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations do not specifically exclude rail travel.

Specifically? No. You're right. They don't.
But in their generality, they do. Very clearly.
Furthermore, one could claim that the body of Railway Legislation 'does not specifically subordinate itself to Consumer Legislation'.

If I may make a personal remark, I do find it curious that it is those who post on a specialist railway-interest forum who seem to inhabit this stronghold of the apocryphal belief, or faith, that Consumer legislation applies to any more than publicity and marketing by Railway Operators and that the belief or faith is not heard elsewhere (not that I'm aware of).

 

[kieron]

Not the same as "Manchester Stations" though!! These are routeing groups, not station groups (to give a common location for ticketing purposes).

If you are trying to find a valid route between two stations, it would seem to me to be a good idea to use the routeing guide. That defines what group stations are (I am not aware of the term "routeing group" being used anywhere), and what you are allowed to do if your journey requires you to pass through one.

It does exclude situations (such as this one) where the ticket destination is inside a station group, but it does not give specific instructions for what to do in this case.

The concensus here seems to be that you may travel between stations within the group at will, but may not pass through your destination station en route.

 

[MikeWh]

If you are trying to find a valid route between two stations, it would seem to me to be a good idea to use the routeing guide. That defines what group stations are (I am not aware of the term "routeing group" being used anywhere), and what you are allowed to do if your journey requires you to pass through one.

On the index page of the routeing guide is the list of PDFs that make up the guide. The last one is described:

Group Stations

Description:
A list of the stations which have been grouped together to make a "Routeing Point Group".

OK, not a routeing group, but a routeing point group.

It does exclude situations (such as this one) where the ticket destination is inside a station group, but it does not give specific instructions for what to do in this case.

The concensus here seems to be that you may travel between stations within the group at will, but may not pass through your destination station en route.

Actually what it says is that if the origin or destination stations are part of a group you cannot double back within the group.

Now, the group stations file in the routeing guide lists:

MANCHESTER GROUP
DEANSGATE G-MEX
MANCHESTER OXFORD ROAD
MANCHESTER PICCADILLY
MANCHESTER VICTORIA
SALFORD CENTRAL
SALFORD CRESCENT

But when you query the fares manual you are told that Manchester stations includes:

Flow Origin 0438 MANCHESTER STNS
Fares Group 2963 DEANSGATE G-MEX 2966 MANCHESTER O RD 2968 MANCHESTER PIC 2970 MANCHESTER VIC

So, I think you'll agree that the routeing point group includes Salford which allows travel via there when journeying through Manchester Group, but if your destination is Manchester stations then Salford is not included. Therefore, after arriving at a Manchester station you can only travel to another Manchester station, not via somewhere not included (eg Salford).

 

[34D]

I once had tickets retained by staff at the ticket gates and the result was I was unable to claim back the fare from the person paying for my travel on that particular journey.

My company expenses department did that when I couldn't produce a three course meal to include with my subsistence claim. Now when I order a three course meal I put the uneaten food in a plastic bag, and I buy dry bread and water for myself.

 

[kieron]

On the index page of the routeing guide is the list of PDFs that make up the guide. The last one is described:

Thank you. I didn't think to look at the web page itself.

Actually what it says is that if the origin or destination stations are part of a group you cannot double back within the group.

Sorry, should have been clearer. It clearly says you can't do some or all of the things in the preceding paragraph if you are travelling to a station within a group.

What it doesn't say is what you can do. Unless you know differently, of course.

So, I think you'll agree that the routeing point group includes Salford which allows travel via there when journeying through Manchester Group, but if your destination is Manchester stations then Salford is not included.

Sorry, why do you think that is so? You've just quoted two lists, but it's not clear to me what the second one has to do with valid routes from (say) Wilmslow to Manchester Stations.

Are you trying to claim that you cannot travel from A to B via C if the ticket from A to C costs more than the A to B one, or something like that?

 

[Harlesden]

I wish to disagree with the first part of Reply #10
QUOTE I'm sure any legitimate complaint will be considered with the dilligence it deserves, based on its merits and the adequacy of its information - with or without a ticket. I will agree that a ticket or the details on a ticket might help in identifying the subject matter of the complaint, but that is all UNQUOTE

Surely this leaves the door open for totally dishonest people, reading on the Internet about a seriously delayed service or route, to then write to the TOC falesly claiming that they were on that service and requesting compensation for the "delay".
In my own opinion, no TOC should consider a claim without a ticket as an indication that the claimant was genuinely affected.
Just as it is the passenger's responsibility to buy a ticket in the first place, it is also the passenger's responsibility to hang onto his/her ticket if they are thinking about making a claim for compensation.

 

[wintonian]

Sorry, why do you think that is so? You've just quoted two lists, but it's not clear to me what the second one has to do with valid routes from (say) Wilmslow to Manchester Stations.

Are you trying to claim that you cannot travel from A to B via C if the ticket from A to C costs more than the A to B one, or something like that?

Manchester Stns is a destination, as printed on a ticket, so a ticket to Manchester is valid all members of this group.

While the Manchester routing group is something you pass through on your way to somewhere which allows you to use additional stations for the purpose of interchanging where there are more facilities, and is also used to preform the fares check.

So in other words you go to Manchester Stns, but travel via Manchester routing group.

 

[Starmill]

My company expenses department did that when I couldn't produce a three course meal to include with my subsistence claim. Now when I order a three course meal I put the uneaten food in a plastic bag, and I buy dry bread and water for myself.

Collapsed laughing!

But seriously guys, treat these people like gatelines (they might as well be for all the use they are!). If you have a Manchester Stns ticket, it will be withdrawn. No different to arriving at Leeds or Chester with a ticket to those places. If your ticket is valid for ANY onward travel (plusbus, metrolink, whatever) do not surrender it. I pass these goons everyday, although usually with a ticket to Metrolink Zone E which they don't try to take, but they have when it has been to Manchester CTLZ, and I've not given it to them!

 

[kieron]

Manchester Stns is a destination, as printed on a ticket, so a ticket to Manchester is valid all members of this group.

While the Manchester routing group is something you pass through on your way to somewhere which allows you to use additional stations for the purpose of interchanging where there are more facilities, and is also used to preform the fares check.

So in other words you go to Manchester Stns, but travel via Manchester routing group.

Not really. Manchester Stns is what is printed on your ticket but, unless you stop short, you "go to" Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria. I would suggest that a destination of Manchester Stns is valid for travel to any one of those stations.

London's a bit different because the group isn't connected by rail links in the way that Manchester is.

 

[Deerfold]

London's a bit different because the group isn't connected by rail links in the way that Manchester is.

Except along Thameslink where if you have a London Terminals ticket you're allowed to go through the London Terminals of London Bridge, London Blackfriars and City Thameslink and not allowed to then go to or through Farringdon to get to St Pancras.

Crossrail may be interesting when it comes to what people expect to be able to do on their tickets...

 

[wintonian]

Not really. Manchester Stns is what is printed on your ticket but, unless you stop short, you "go to" Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria. I would suggest that a destination of Manchester Stns is valid for travel to any one of those stations.

Which are the members of the group 'Manchester Stns' - yes?

Assuming I am correct then you do go to 'Manchester Stns', it just happens to be that 'Manchester Stns' is a container for various other stations.

 

[craigwilson]

Except along Thameslink where if you have a London Terminals ticket you're allowed to go through the London Terminals of London Bridge, London Blackfriars and City Thameslink and not allowed to then go to or through Farringdon to get to St Pancras.

This is the same reasoning by which I assumed that travelling by train to Victoria and passing through Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, and Salford first is not valid. With Salford being the equivalent to Farringdon in this situation.

 

[John @ home]

Except along Thameslink where if you have a London Terminals ticket you're allowed to go through the London Terminals of London Bridge, London Blackfriars and City Thameslink and not allowed to then go to or through Farringdon to get to St Pancras.

This is the same reasoning by which I assumed that travelling by train to Victoria and passing through Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, and Salford first is not valid. With Salford being the equivalent to Farringdon in this situation.

There is a specific rule which disallows travel via Farringdon with a ticket to/from London Terminals.

‘London Terminals’ tickets do not permit travel between City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras International on the First Capital Connect ‘Thameslink’ route.

http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html

There is no such rule involving Manchester Stns. For some journeys, e.g. Todmorden - Deansgate, travel via Salford is the shortest route, and therefore a Permitted Route.

 

[AlexS]

I would be very surprised and disappointed, regardless of the law therein, to find any member of railway staff that refused a reasonable request from a passenger to retain their ticket for an expenses claim or to claim compensation for delay, unless they are withdrawing the ticket for misuse or suspected fraud. It is my understanding that that is why barriers often have stickers on them stating 'these barriers retain completed journey tickets', so that you are aware and can speak to the attendant instead if you require your ticket.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sorry that I hadn't noticed this challenge to my post on account of the unfamiliar format.

I wish to disagree with the first part of Reply #10

I'm sure any legitimate complaint will be considered with the dilligence it deserves, based on its merits and the adequacy of its information - with or without a ticket. I will agree that a ticket or the details on a ticket might help in identifying the subject matter of the complaint, but that is all

Surely this leaves the door open for totally dishonest people, reading on the Internet about a seriously delayed service or route, to then write to the TOC falesly claiming that they were on that service and requesting compensation for the "delay".
In my own opinion, no TOC should consider a claim without a ticket as an indication that the claimant was genuinely affected.
Just as it is the passenger's responsibility to buy a ticket in the first place, it is also the passenger's responsibility to hang onto his/her ticket if they are thinking about making a claim for compensation.

This response, as the original to which I was replying, continues to conflate 'complaint' with some sort of assumption about financial recompense or compensation. The latter is not a necessary consequence of the former. I will repeat that a 'complaint' will be treated as such, a Company's Duty of Care and Dilligence will require it.
A claim for compensation is a completely different matter.

I had hoped to make that distinction quite clear in my original post in this thread:

. . . what [has] compensation ... to do with the subject; unless you turn the question on its head and try to answer this question: "How do I maximise the prospects of claiming Compensation from a Company?" in which case maximising the documentation would form part of the answer.

It's quite incorrect (and profoundly so) to conflate a factual complaint of a matter worthy of investigation with a customer wanting some money back.

 

[yorkie]

If such a request was refused, I'd ask them to clarify if they were complying with the policy of the relevant TOC. Taking notes and sending a letter to the TOC requesting clarification may well get a satisfactory outcome and suitable advice given to the staff member.

 

[Starmill]

I've seen signs at Manchester O Rd which said words to the effect of "If you want to prove you've paid, get a receipt when you buy, cos if you've got tickets to Manchester Stns these here barriers are keeping them!" Haha