They’ve got 2x221’s and 2x ex EMR 180’s on short term lease at the moment. The 10 x 180’s in their fleet are not planned to be leaving GC anytime soon.
The words in bold. This is thankfully not how business cases are put together.
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Revised relaunch of 'Project Rio' - could it work?
- Thread starter Philip
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Reinstating Project Rio today would effectively just be a glorified Leicester to Manchester services with the London carrot thrown in to make the proposals sound viable without testing the actual demand for the rest (which I have no doubt would be well served by the way, but not worth the commercial risk in today's climate).
I'm not sure how one could argue that cheaper fares could be offered by using 180s - some of the most corroded and mechanically knackered 'modern' MUs on the network, with the increase in fuel costs added into the equations to kill it off.
I'm not sure how one could argue that cheaper fares could be offered by using 180s - some of the most corroded and mechanically knackered 'modern' MUs on the network, with the increase in fuel costs added into the equations to kill it off.
Philip
On Moderation
In terms of how well used it would be, comparisons with 20 years ago are sketchy because back then no where near as many people used the trains compared with today; an off peak Manchester to London via WCML service back then would often be less than half full and that was with only 2 trains per hour rather than 3 - demand is much greater now.
In terms of affordability of cheap fares, there was a thread on here a few months back asking whether rail travel should be free altogether. Whilst I'm not advocating going this far, it does show that there is an argument for the railway to be focused more on being a public service (with increased government funding to cover the costs), rather than primarily being business oriented.
In terms of affordability of cheap fares, there was a thread on here a few months back asking whether rail travel should be free altogether. Whilst I'm not advocating going this far, it does show that there is an argument for the railway to be focused more on being a public service (with increased government funding to cover the costs), rather than primarily being business oriented.
You missed my point, I was pointing out that if Avanti wasn't charging extortionate fares, then this discussion would never have started!
To be fair, there are a lot of short trains on EMR at the moment. That's not to say they couldn't run proper length services at some stage.
However, EMR are charging broadly consistent fares between Sheffield and London to those charged by Avanti for Manchester to London, so why would EMR offer a cheaper way to get from Manchester to London?
The premise of the original poster is therefore false.
Bevan Price
Established Member
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I don't think that another Manchester / London service is really needed. However, if a third "fast" path on the Hope Valley becomes available, I would suggest that a Manchester - Sheffield - Derby or Leicester service might be useful; south of Sheffield this could call at Duffield, Chesterfield, Belper, Derby, Long Eaton & Loughborough.
Alternatively, extend the current Northern Manchester / Sheffield stopper to Derby or Leicester. Would not exactly be fast, but would offer new through journey options instead of having to change at Sheffield.
Alternatively, extend the current Northern Manchester / Sheffield stopper to Derby or Leicester. Would not exactly be fast, but would offer new through journey options instead of having to change at Sheffield.
Not at all. There is Avanti runnung a fast but expensive service between London and Manchester and LNW / TFW offering a slower, cheaper London - Manchester service.
And EMR service would be *even* slower and a poor use of capacity on the MML.
Given one of the Avanti Manchester trains per hour stops at Nuneaton from which there is an interchange to Leicester with a 90 minute end to end journey time, compared to Manchester - Sheffield of ~55mins and Sheffield - Leicester ~ 1hour - there really isn't any point to such a service.
Manchester to the East Midlands (Derby, Nottingham and Leicester) would probably hold some weight. Perhaps with an upgraded Hope Valley line and some franchise reshuffling..
The only way it would work from London, is either a reversal at Sheffield and that that service is a Manchester service outright, or if a Sheffield-bound service running as 2x5 car 222’s or 810’s were to split at Derby (for example) and one unit takes the south curve at Dore onto the Hope Valley to Manchester.
What about a Derby to Manchester via Stoke and Macclesfield? [edit: realising now that this exists already!]
The only way it would work from London, is either a reversal at Sheffield and that that service is a Manchester service outright, or if a Sheffield-bound service running as 2x5 car 222’s or 810’s were to split at Derby (for example) and one unit takes the south curve at Dore onto the Hope Valley to Manchester.
What about a Derby to Manchester via Stoke and Macclesfield? [edit: realising now that this exists already!]
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Avanti runs a fast and cheap service between London and Manchester for those who are willing to be flexible and book ahead. £40 return is very, very reasonable!
dk1
Veteran Member
Totally agree. Cant go wrong with that.
Slightly off-topic, but it would be more intuitive to extend existing services into Sheffield and Nottingham, to link the EMR Intercity’s up with Wakefield & Leeds, Rotherham & Doncaster and, more regularly, Lincoln - Provide greater connections with other franchises routes and destinations (again).
Indeed. I have a rule - if a long distance train fare is cheaper than the price of premium lager bought in a London pub, when comparing journey time vs drinking time at 2 pints an hour, it‘s great value.
Manchester - 2hrs 15, say 4 pints @ £7/pint, £28, vs ticket at £20 = great value.
43096
On Moderation
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That sounds like something you have done plenty of research on!
So, you're happy with Avanti's walk up prices then, £100+ off peak return? Fair enough if you do, but I'm sure you're in the minority.
I'm not sure why you keep repeating your point regarding the proposed EMR service, I agree!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If unhappy with Avanti's fares, LNR offers a very cheap alternative, it's unlikely Rio would undercut that as it would create massive anomalies.
And who’s to say EMR wouldn’t charge the same?
Avanti and EMR will be likely to copy the changes being made on LNER within the next two years. Some people pay £100+ for off peak returns because that is the cost of their weekend away, or what they need to pay to travel to an event. Other people pay less by using advance fares and the railway realises it can squeeze people a bit more for certain services currently considered off peak.
Not great but people rarely need to do it every week.
Fair point - I was thinking walk up.
It's the going rate for a flexible, walk up fare. The vast majority of people don't just travel London to Manchester on the spur of the moment and with a little planning won't pay that much. People are happy to shop arpund for pretty much everything else in life, why not train fares?
I've taken you to task on the number of sales this is getting before, so I won't do so again. But suffice to say it's misleading to post about Superfare without acknowledging that it's specially designed to pick up new business at the bottom of the market on price, without letting any of the current market trade down to it. In addition to the 7 day booking minimum, I noticed you didn't mention the 21 day maximum, nor that you only receive 24 hours of notice when your service is. Amendments are also not permitted, unlike with nearly all other types of booked service only ticket.
still very, very cheap though. In the context of this thread, if people want a cheap way of getting to Manchester, its already available, and rather quicker than a tour of the East Midlands and Peak District.
I agree on the principle that the competing service would have too high operating costs to make fares undercutting Superfare on price alone worthwhile, if that's what you mean.
Yes, thats what I mean.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I see it as very unlikely it will happen within two years, though it might roll out to all of LNER. Single fare pricing has yet to make it to any other TOC bar the Oval area.
It almost certainly will eventually, though.
You drink in the wrong pubs (or the wrong beer).
Bald Rick has an avowed distaste for Wetherspoon and a stated desire of drinking in London, presumably somewhere reasonably central. If you can find a decent pint at meaningfully less, that meets those criteria, let's hear it
Bald Rick has an avowed distaste for Wetherspoon and a stated desire of drinking in London, presumably somewhere reasonably central. If you can find a decent pint at meaningfully less, that meets those criteria, let's hear it
The Charles 1st and the Euston Tap both offer beautiful ales at much less than £7. (But if yukky lager is @Bald Rick 's thing, maybe not!)
The Charles 1st and the Euston Tap both offer beautiful ales at much less than £7. (But if yukky lager is @Bald Rick 's thing, maybe not!)
I thought I knew all the pubs in the Euston / St P area, but the Charles I is new on me! Nevertheless, sometimes I drink lager (though it needs to be a good one), sometimes I’ll drink ale. But for the purpose of this comparison, I’m using a decent premium lager in London.
Each to their own !
(I would recommend the Charles 1st anyway though I'm not sure what lager they do).