Rights if ferry is delayed, missing train connection, using Sail Rail ticket

[gray1404]

I will be travelling from Douglas, Isle of Man to Formby using the return portion of a Sail Rail Economy Return on Monday 11 June 2018. The IOM Steam Packet Company sailing leaves Douglas at 18:45 and arrives in Liverpool at 22:00

Interestingly ferry confirmation says check in closes at 18:00 (45 minutes before departure) rather then the usual 25 minutes before. I also note the scheduled journey time 3 hours 15 minutes (it is usually 2 hours 45 minutes).

I see that the SPC are operating an increased number of services on 11 June 2018. If delays occurred that were non weather related i.e. late running as so busy etc and within the control of the company... and I arrived into Liverpool too late for the last train service to Formby (this leaves Moorfields at 23:40) would the Steam Packet Company be responsible or liable for the cost of getting me to my destination? I ask this on the basis that I will be travelling on a through ticket from Douglas to Formby and they have taken my reservation and will have accepted me for travel on this basis? Would I also be entitled, if it became obvious pre departure that I might miss my onward train, to book to travel the next day - my ticket would certainly still be within date as valid for a calendar month on the return portion.

If it was a weather related issue causing any delay then they are not liable.

I am concerned about missing the connection if there was a delay given how busy it may be and the knock on effect that I am taking the last ferry of the day.

The only other thing to say is when I booked the ticket I had to book it on Loco2 and it would not show journeys via Liverpool, only Heysham so I had to select this for the purposes of obtaining the ticket then contact the STP separately to make the foot passenger reservations. The SPC company website does state that some sites will not show the Liverpool sailings.

 

[IanM]

I guess you're coming home from TT? That will explain the longer check in times - sailings are very busy and they do like to get everyone there a bit earlier.
My experience is that Manannan is the less punctual of the two vessels during the TT period, simply becasue she is programmed to do 3 "rotations" (to borrow a term from the airline business) per 24 hours throughout the TT period. There is therefore less scope to make up for delays and they tend to build gradually throughout the fortnight. So it is unlikely that it will be possible to pinpoint precisely what might cause your delay, if indeed you are delayed.
Others better qualified than me in the Sail & Rail ticket will have to comment on your options if you're late into Liverpool.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks - no going to TT personally but sadly my dates clash with it. Hopefully someone will know your rights when delayed using Sail Rail.

 

[najaB]

[W]ould the Steam Packet Company be responsible or liable for the cost of getting me to my destination?

I don't think the Steam Packet Company would be liable, but I'm pretty sure the rail company would be.

 

[gray1404]

So the rail company would be liable at having to bear the cost of a taxi because the ferry service was late? I think I am best covering both bases then in term of if there is a delay and I will miss my train, ask the Steam Packet staff on arrival and explain I am on a Sail Rail ticket. If that fails head to Moorfields and explain the situation to staff there. Although if I miss the 23:40 from Moorfields it could be that by the time I get there the station will be closed. In which case I'd have to pay for a taxi and write to Merseyrail Customer Relations after.

Another thing that has come to mind is that if I was to miss the connection I could try to get chargeback on my Visa card (transaction below £100) on the basis I didn't receive the service I paid for. This would cover the cost of any taxi. Hopefully everything runs to time and the SPC have built enough recovery time into their timetable to account for the additional passengers.

 

[najaB]

So the rail company would be liable at having to bear the cost of a taxi because the ferry service was late?

ISTR that was the outcome of a case that was raised here a few months back - the ferry company just acts as an agent for the train company so any claim would be against the latter.

 

[gray1404]

How does one establish which train company is responsible? I know I cited Merseyrail above as that is who my onward connection is with however I notice that Virgin Trains West Coast is listed as the operator of the ferry when you bring up an itinerary through National Rail or Loco2.

 

[najaB]

How does one establish which train company is responsible? I know I cited Merseyrail above as that is who my onward connection is with however I notice that Virgin Trains West Coast is listed as the operator of the ferry when you bring up an itinerary through National Rail or Loco2.

I would guess it's whomever you bought your ticket through.

 

[gray1404]

Loco2. This is an agent authorised to sell National Rail tickets rather then a TOC. Normally on normal tickets/journeys though the train company causing the delay is deemed to be at fault and any train company that can is duty bound to help you. Complicated in this case.

 

[OwlMan]

Read the conditions of carriage on the steam packet website - EU regulations govern Sea transport.

 

[gray1404]

I've read their passengers charter and it is of no use. It says they are not liable. However, the point here is that it is a Sail Rail ticket (through ticket) and the said document was not written with that in mind.

 

[John @ home]

How does one establish which train company is responsible? ... I notice that Virgin Trains West Coast is listed as the operator of the ferry when you bring up an itinerary through National Rail or Loco2.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=DGS&dest=FBY shows that the TOC which sets the Anytime Day Single fare Douglas IOM - Formby is Virgin West Coast. The TOC which sets the return fares is "Unknown"!

 

[SarahLouise]

Just in case anyone else is wondering what happens if you have a sail rail ticket and miss your train because the ferry is late, I eventually found this on the Virgin trains website: "In the event of the ferry arriving late in Holyhead, tickets will be valid on the first available rail service at no extra charge." I guess other train companies have similar policies. My initial panicked searches didn't bring up that page and I really thought I might have to buy a new ticket costing £100. Luckily the ferry was less late than predicted.

 

[gray1404]

If it happens during the day yes, on the next available train service. But what if you miss the last connection of the day and that "wait" involves an overnight wait, which would be unacceptable. In those circumstances it is arguable that the customer should be put in either a hotel and meals or be provided with alternative transport (taxi) by either the ferry operator or train company. In the end my journey ran to time too so I didn't have any issues.

 

[bionic]

A few years ago my ferry was late from Dublin to Holyhead and arrived at Holyhead station to see the tail lights of the Virgin Euston "boat train" pulling out minus everyone from the boat. Tickets were good for the local train to Crewe and onward connection to Euston. We also got a full refund.

 

[gray1404]

Who issued the refund out of interest? Was it the ferry company and did you have to apply for it?

 

[bionic]

It was about ten years ago but I believe it was Virgin.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do CIV rules apply when a rail ticket covers an international journey such as Dublin to London?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Do CIV rules apply when a rail ticket covers an international journey such as Dublin to London?

According to the NRCoT, yes (see Introduction, page 4)

 

[AlterEgo]

According to the NRCoT, yes (see Introduction, page 4)

Then there is ab absolute right to take the next available train at Holyhead if your ferry from Dublin is delayed.

If you have yet another leg after the (let’s say VTWC) leg from Holyhead, the CIV rules do not entitle you to further protection after that.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Then there is ab absolute right to take the next available train at Holyhead if your ferry from Dublin is delayed.

If you have yet another leg after the (let’s say VTWC) leg from Holyhead, the CIV rules do not entitle you to further protection after that.

I'm just quoting what the NRCoT says - that it doesn't apply to journeys which aren't entirely within GB.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm just quoting what the NRCoT says - that it doesn't apply to journeys which aren't entirely within GB.

I know - I’m quoting the CIV rules there, which are the rules this hypothetical journey would be covered by and not the NRCOT.

 

[Hadders]

I’m sure i’ve Seen it mentioned on here in the past that Sail Rail to Ireland is not covered unless the journey includes an Irish Rail leg.

Looking at the fares data in BR Fares destinations such as Galway have CIV as part of the destination whereas the Dublin Port Stena and Dublin IF does not.

 

[Haywain]

I’m sure i’ve Seen it mentioned on here in the past that Sail Rail to Ireland is not covered unless the journey includes an Irish Rail leg.

I think that's correct. Historically, these journeys were entirely on the BR network until Sealink was sold off.

 

[gray1404]

So will Isle of Man trips have CIV protection then?

 

[philthetube]

possibly not as it is not in the EU.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

possibly not as it is not in the EU.

The applicability of CIV is not a function of being in the EU; it is a function of being a Member State of the COTIF, which includes several countries outside the EU, such as Switzerland and some north African countries. However, the Isle of Man is not a COTIF Member State and so I don't think such journeys would be covered by CIV.

 

[Haywain]

So will Isle of Man trips have CIV protection then?

possibly not as it is not in the EU.

And there is no rail travel element in the Isle of Man. The rail travel appears to be essential to bringing CIV cover into place for other ferry crossings.