RMT announces further strike action for TOCs & overtime ban for Network Rail

[CE142]

Excellent! So that's my planned train ride to Birmingham for my holiday screwed over by a bunch of socialists. Screw the railway fed up with this.

Your planned train ride to Birmingham for your holiday has been screwed over by a bunch of Right Wing Fasicts in Government.

There are quite a number of people who post on here who, for reasons only known to themselves, cannot bear the prospect that the people responsible for their hobby might be fairly rewarded for their work, or have hard-won terms and conditions respected. It'd take quite the leap of imagination to consider it wasn't entirely borne of envy, be that of the T&Cs themselves, or that a workforce has the self-respect to stand up for themselves where they themselves would simply bend over.

I'd leave them to it, literally nothing they say or dream of has any effect whatsoever on negotiations or the eventual outcome. Speaking as a driver not involved in the disputes, the only effect they've actually had where I'm concerned is to ensure nobody else who shares their hobby gets anything they ask me for (such as a toot of the horn, a chance to take a photo of my cab, or even a friendly wave) any more. Small kids are the only people I even acknowledge nowadays, and that's pretty sad, but the days of me having anything but scorn or disdain for 'enthusiasts' are long gone. This is people's livelihoods, and cheerleading for other people to have their terms and conditions annihilated leaves the sourest taste in the mouth, typical as it is of the toxic nation we now find ourselves living in.

A round of applause for you sir!
Why should I roll over and have my Terms and Conditions thrown away? Just because some Righty Wing Tory thinks that they can steamroller through what they want.
It's time that all the working people of this country stood up for themselves against this fascist Government.
P.S. Remember all those key workers that you were all applauding during the Covid Lockdowns? Claps don't pay the Bills! Ask yourselves why are those Key Workers are the all the ones that are now on strike....

 

[Cdd89]

It is genuinely sad to see that so many rail workers are this demoralised with their working conditions. However I am really concerned that the strikes are ultimately making working conditions worse through long term damage.

A big cause of the problem the railway faces is that it is increasingly viewed as nonessential infrastructure, where reliability is not that important. That deters premium traffic and reduces revenue, causing a viscous cycle of cuts. I have moved all my long distance travel to domestic aviation because it is more reliable (that would have been inconceivable a year ago).

This perceived unreliability further weakens the effect of strike action (the story is barely on the BBC News homepage), and helps the government impose other cuts. It is in rail workers’ interests for the railway to be seen as reliable, so people are keen to use it and increase investment and revenue that can compensate workers, and to increase the effect of strike threats, should they be felt necessary in the future.

 

[350401]

Your planned train ride to Birmingham for your holiday has been screwed over by a bunch of Right Wing Fasicts in Government.


A round of applause for you sir!
Why should I roll over and have my Terms and Conditions thrown away? Just because some Righty Wing Tory thinks that they can steamroller through what they want.
It's time that all the working people of this country stood up for themselves against this fascist Government.
P.S. Remember all those key workers that you were all applauding during the Covid Lockdowns? Claps don't pay the Bills! Ask yourselves why are those Key Workers are the all the ones that are now on strike....

Because, bluntly, your industry is being propped up by the government and by taxpayers. You do not cover your own costs. Why should we keep paying for you?

 

[Facing Back]

It is genuinely sad to see that so many rail workers are this demoralised with their working conditions. However I am really concerned that the strikes are ultimately making working conditions worse through long term damage.

A big cause of the problem the railway faces is that it is increasingly viewed as nonessential infrastructure, where reliability is not that important. That deters premium traffic and reduces revenue, causing a viscous cycle of cuts. I have moved all my long distance travel to domestic aviation because it is more reliable (that would have been inconceivable a year ago).

This perceived unreliability further weakens the effect of strike action (the story is barely on the BBC News homepage), and helps the government impose other cuts. It is in rail workers’ interests for the railway to be seen as reliable, so people are keen to use it and increase investment and revenue that can compensate workers, and to increase the effect of strike threats, should they be felt necessary in the future.

I see your point but some of the damage has been done.

My firm moved away from time critical rail transport a while ago - we had built much of the infrastructure during COVID and when we could not guarantee being somewhere on time we stopped going - and clients and suppliers agreed.

We have closed a couple of smaller offices and run shuttles - aka very nice minibuses - to London. Sticking 4 of our people in one of those with a host and bacon butties costs very less than the first class train and it picks people up from home.

Our high value rail travel has been lost and it is not coming back

Your planned train ride to Birmingham for your holiday has been screwed over by a bunch of Right Wing Fasicts in Government.


A round of applause for you sir!
Why should I roll over and have my Terms and Conditions thrown away? Just because some Righty Wing Tory thinks that they can steamroller through what they want.
It's time that all the working people of this country stood up for themselves against this fascist Government.
P.S. Remember all those key workers that you were all applauding during the Covid Lockdowns? Claps don't pay the Bills! Ask yourselves why are those Key Workers are the all the ones that are now on strike....

Fascists? Gosh - I do hope you were being ironic and not expecting to be taken at face value.

You shouldn't roll over. You are in a union and their job is to negotiate the best deal they can for their members.

The employers have £2-3 billion less to spend - where should they make the cuts?

And no, I am not buying the "print more money" argument.

 

[AlterEgo]

As a devil’s advocate this is what the 6/7th round of strikes? Surely that “negotiating positon” has been used up now?

I’ve been getting this feeling too. The political iron is no longer hot and the government have bidden their time. Other disputes like the nurses’ are now occupying much more media space.

 

[the sniper]

Excellent! So that's my planned train ride to Birmingham for my holiday screwed over by a bunch of socialists. Screw the railway fed up with this.

If socialism is saving people from going on a holiday to Birmingham, it should really be appreciated...

 

[Russel]

Because, bluntly, your industry is being propped up by the government and by taxpayers. You do not cover your own costs. Why should we keep paying for you?

The industry is also in need of heavy modernisation and reform

 

[Howardh]

If socialism is saving people from going on a holiday to Birmingham, it should really be appreciated...

I've just been to Birmingham for a holiday! Well, weekend break!
As for the strikes, I usually book breaks well in advance, but this year nothing. I wait until they are announced and book round them.
Want to do N Scotland in June, would have booked hotels already but no way.
Glad the unions have booked their next strikes something like 4 weeks in advance.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

A mess is what we are ending up with. As previous posters are said, the national framework does not work. They can't use one stroke of a brush to fix it for us all. In my position at my TOC, I would accept the deal as the T&C would not be impacted in any way by the terms of the deal. However for so many others, it tears up methods of working and conditions which are crucial to the role for them. I feel like it has to be broken down more, with negotiating of T&Cs at a more local level. The way the government seem to power through with these plans however do not fill me with hope of that happening. RDG's move I guess, but I don't suppose they'll be in any rush.

Exactly, this is harmonising T& C's to the worst currently used without harmonising pay! I earn roughly £10k less than a certain TOC's version of my role but will get roughly the same pay increase for losing a shed load of terms whilst they lose none. This is why we're at an impasse

Because, bluntly, your industry is being propped up by the government and by taxpayers. You do not cover your own costs. Why should we keep paying for you?

If that's the case, why should we subsidise public bus services, or any other public service. That's why they are 'public' because they are for those that require it. Nobody in the industry really expects there to be no cuts, that started a while back, but it won't ever fully cover it's costs as it doesn't in probably every country that has a public railway

 

[Buffer stop]

I get the feeling this dispute is just getting started.

 

[66701GBRF]

Because, bluntly, your industry is being propped up by the government and by taxpayers. You do not cover your own costs. Why should we keep paying for you?

Why should staff have their terms and conditions ripped up to pay for your nice brand new trains, cut price tickets and tickets that are priced below real costs?

I am not aware of any public service that runs (or can run) without subsidies.

 

[350401]

Why should staff have their terms and conditions ripped up to pay for your nice brand new trains, cut price tickets and tickets that are priced below real costs?

The government (taxpayers) is subsidising both the staff, and the users of the industry. Only one of those brings any votes. Realistically, if this keeps going, users will (and are) find alternatives - car, Uber, coach. As a regular user of both SE and Avanti, the service is pretty terrible and getting worse - again worsening the spiral of decline. Like a lot of services in the U.K. post covid the sector is demanding more money and delivering worse service. Ultimately, the strikes are pointless now as the government will not cave, users will be put off using the service, and staff are losing money. It’s just a grim recipe for the terminal decline of the industry.

 

[142blue]

I'm going to manchester airport on the 25th/26th April will there be trains still running or will they stick to their normal timetables.

On previous dates it's been an hourly northern service from Piccadilly supplemented with occasional transpennine trains too. 7am to 5pm roughly. Or get the metrolink?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why should staff have their terms and conditions ripped up to pay for your nice brand new trains, cut price tickets and tickets that are priced below real costs?

I am not aware of any public service that runs (or can run) without subsidies.

I think this is a fair comment, but remember that the country is in a productivity rut. The railways run inefficiently and the workforce is not especially well utilised. Any pay deal will come with strings - significant ones - and it would be naive to think otherwise.

I do believe unions are a vital vehicle to resist unfettered capitalism but they're just as necessary an evil as the shareholder. I think the RMT has taken this dispute as far as it can, notwithstanding any surprise massive political upheaval in national politics.

 

[John Bishop]

I think the truth of the matter is the RMT have run out of options now. They’ve fired their last bullet and it’s missed the target. The Government haven’t blinked and are quite happy to ride out any further industrial action, they simply don’t care. I think, and hope, the RMT are aware of this as well.

 

[yorksrob]

It would also appear the RMT Executive isn't good at maths, or positioning.

To hit the Government hardest financially means striking Tuesdays to Thursdays, not weekends.

Instead, the RMT are going to take out two Saturdays, days when most travel is discretionary. That means they've opted to pee off the maximum number of mostly leisure travellers (and potential supporters) while delivering a meh hit against their opponents.

To say the least, that's pretty dumb.

This is a fair point. The Government clearly has an agenda of wanting more people working in the office. Commuter traffic has recovered reasonably strongly mid-week. It's obvious that the Government couldn't give two hoots about peoples leisure plans being disrupted.

If they want to influence the organ grinders, mid-week, rather than weekends are the time to do it.

By the replies here from some of those in the industry, it’s grimly obvious that no compromise on either side is possible - on one side there there is a view that the railways have a right to exist, have a right to unlimited public money, they’ll continue to strike until they get their way, and us punters will continue to turn up regardless of just how poor the service is. On the other side, the government is dug in now, and is prepared to slash and burn.

Unfortunately, the next government isn’t going to have rail as a priority. If/when Beeching 2 happens, there will be lots of wailing - but it’ll be an ultimately self inflicted wound.

It's passengers who would primarily affected by a Beeching 2, so it wouldn't be a self-inflicted wound.

 

[InkyScrolls]

There are quite a number of people who post on here who, for reasons only known to themselves, cannot bear the prospect that the people responsible for their hobby might be fairly rewarded for their work, or have hard-won terms and conditions respected. It'd take quite the leap of imagination to consider it wasn't entirely borne of envy, be that of the T&Cs themselves, or that a workforce has the self-respect to stand up for themselves where they themselves would simply bend over.

I'd leave them to it, literally nothing they say or dream of has any effect whatsoever on negotiations or the eventual outcome. Speaking as a driver not involved in the disputes, the only effect they've actually had where I'm concerned is to ensure nobody else who shares their hobby gets anything they ask me for (such as a toot of the horn, a chance to take a photo of my cab, or even a friendly wave) any more. Small kids are the only people I even acknowledge nowadays, and that's pretty sad, but the days of me having anything but scorn or disdain for 'enthusiasts' are long gone. This is people's livelihoods, and cheerleading for other people to have their terms and conditions annihilated leaves the sourest taste in the mouth, typical as it is of the toxic nation we now find ourselves living in.

Hear hear!

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought Mick Cash died in office - did I remember that wrong?

Mick C is alive, well and AIUI rather pleased to not be involved.

 

[Alanko]

Why should staff have their terms and conditions ripped up to pay for your nice brand new trains, cut price tickets and tickets that are priced below real costs?

Because some of them date back to the steam era and are the definition of 'cushty', perhaps?

 

[Fred26]

Because some of them date back to the steam era and are the definition of 'cushty', perhaps?

Like?

 

[Alanko]

Like?

Walking time allowance.


To give another more specific example, when the Union canal washed out the tracks at Polmont the Edinburgh - Glasgow line was totally out of commission for several weeks. This didn't stop a small army of guys in orange from cutting down small overhanging trees at around 1:00 am one night. A smaller crew could have done it in the daytime, but the fact that there were two men watching for every one man with a chainsaw (making those saplings look foolish) in the dead of night had 'union shenanigans' written all over it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Because some of them date back to the steam era and are the definition of 'cushty', perhaps?

And yet some of the terms the DfT are going after are;

- the 'luxury' of having ones break away from your point of work. I.e. on a moving or stabled train. I want to be able to go for a work or sit outside or pop to a shop on my break, not sit on the train I was just working.

- shift ending once all duties have been completed. I.e. deposit revenue equipment, new terms say shift will end when I get off my last train.

- being able to plan outside of work, including when my commited Sundays are - to be changed to TOC can cancel commited Sunday shift if no work available with 48hrs notice. Yet I cannot book said shift off.

Walking time allowance.


To give another more specific example, when the Union canal washed out the tracks at Polmont the Edinburgh - Glasgow line was totally out of commission for several weeks. This didn't stop a small army of guys in orange from cutting down small overhanging trees at around 1:00 am one night. A smaller crew could have done it in the daytime, but the fact that there were two men watching for every one man with a chainsaw (making those saplings look foolish) in the dead of night had 'union shenanigans' written all over it.

Walking time allowance is important. Diagrams are now so compact that without walking time I would not fit in the legal minimum break required for the shift length. Obviously I'm taking TOCs here, but diagrams don't work without adequate walking time

 

[duncanp]

I think the truth of the matter is the RMT have run out of options now. They’ve fired their last bullet and it’s missed the target. The Government haven’t blinked and are quite happy to ride out any further industrial action, they simply don’t care. I think, and hope, the RMT are aware of this as well.

I wonder whether it would be possible for the employer to ballot their staff on whether to accept the pay offer, given that there are some people who are not happy that the RMT hasn't put the pay offer to a vote.

 

[Snow1964]

I think the truth of the matter is the RMT have run out of options now. They’ve fired their last bullet and it’s missed the target. The Government haven’t blinked and are quite happy to ride out any further industrial action, they simply don’t care. I think, and hope, the RMT are aware of this as well.

Thats the problem, almost certainly the strikes will not get any further offers from employers, exactly the same lack of response as strikes in January / February. If strikes didn't work last month who seriously thinks they will suddenly start working next month.

So RMT runs out of options, becomes impotent, strike mandate lapses month after this next action, lots of its members have lost pay. Some might have given up their membership. Some might drift back to work having realised losing money for nothing.

But those with loud voices will still be out there, standing on picket lines pretending they are winning. Probably won't even muster 400 for all the picket lines nationally, so less than 1% of 40,000 workforce.

 

[gazzaa2]

Word on the street is that there may be a palace coup.

I think the government from the start have been more concerned with bringing him down than ending this dispute. He was gaining too much popularity and publicity and very anti the government. If Lynch went I think the government would be more willing to negotiate in good faith.

Christmas was the last throw of the dice from RMt and the government didn't blink. I don’t know what they're trying to achieve now.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think the government from the start have been more concerned with bringing him down than ending this dispute. He was gaining too much popularity and publicity and very anti the government. If Lynch went I think the government would be more willing to negotiate in good faith.

Christmas was the last throw of the dice from RMt and the government didn't blink. I don’t know what they're trying to achieve now.

It seems from this thread that the unions execs have similar ambitions to bring down the government. If so this is a stalemate that may only be resolved at the next general election.

 

[Fred26]

Walking time allowance.

Mainly drivers, plus guards. I don't think there's any other grade affected. Certainly not my grade.

To give another more specific example, when the Union canal washed out the tracks at Polmont the Edinburgh - Glasgow line was totally out of commission for several weeks. This didn't stop a small army of guys in orange from cutting down small overhanging trees at around 1:00 am one night. A smaller crew could have done it in the daytime, but the fact that there were two men watching for every one man with a chainsaw (making those saplings look foolish) in the dead of night had 'union shenanigans' written all over it.

That's Network Rail. Nothing to do with this dispute.

 

[Falcon1200]

Some of the conditions they wanted in return for an "okay" rise are poor. Like the movement of rest days with perhaps as few as 3 days notice. How can that ever be acceptable?

Or 'committed Sundays'... if I want it off, I can only if there is cover available, again that could be as few as 3 days notice, so can't make plans. Yet if it's my turn to work and they decide there isn't enough work for me, they can tell me I'm not working again with 3 days notice so I lose the money. How can that be fair?

Those changes to conditions would not have been acceptable to me either. However;

I think the truth of the matter is the RMT have run out of options now. They’ve fired their last bullet and it’s missed the target. The Government haven’t blinked and are quite happy to ride out any further industrial action, they simply don’t care. I think, and hope, the RMT are aware of this as well.

I agree. This is the problem for the RMT, months of strike action with, as well as the cost to the rail industry, the effect on their members' pay, but with no sign whatsoever of the Government/DfT/NR conceding their demands. So where does the RMT go now? IMHO the sensible course of action would be to accept, reluctantly, the pay offer, but make it clear that the proposed changes to conditions are not acceptable without modifications; Such as, Rest Days are guaranteed, can be changed but only with the agreement of the staff concerned, rostered Sundays should always be paid (but must, like any shift, be worked if there is no cover). Cancel strike days but retain the threat of overtime bans. These would be the actions of a Union doing their best for their members but at the same time accepting the reality of the situation.

 

[gazzaa2]

It seems from this thread that the unions execs have similar ambitions to bring down the government. If so this is a stalemate that may only be resolved at the next general election.

Pretty much said from the start we'll have to wait this out till mid to late 2024. They might be disappointed with what Starmer offers though, after 2 years of strikes and a battered public purse.

Government have the upper hand because they don't actually care. That's thrown the RMT from the start and especially now. They'd rather see RMT and Lynch brought down a peg than to solve the dispute

For all their faults the Tories play divide and rule better than anyone.

 

[Fred26]

Those changes to conditions would not have been acceptable to me either. However;



I agree. This is the problem for the RMT, months of strike action with, as well as the cost to the rail industry, the effect on their members' pay, but with no sign whatsoever of the Government/DfT/NR conceding their demands. So where does the RMT go now? IMHO the sensible course of action would be to accept, reluctantly, the pay offer, but make it clear that the proposed changes to conditions are not acceptable without modifications; Such as, Rest Days are guaranteed, can be changed but only with the agreement of the staff concerned, rostered Sundays should always be paid (but must, like any shift, be worked if there is no cover). Cancel strike days but retain the threat of overtime bans. These would be the actions of a Union doing their best for their members but at the same time accepting the reality of the situation.

Yes, but the government aren't moving on those terms. That's the problem.