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RMT announces further strike action for TOCs & overtime ban for Network Rail

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baz962

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Lets clear this up once and for all, it's both.

Anybody can do nothing, but the minute you request a pay rise, you are changing the employment terms, and if requesting a change then open up the other side to request changes too.

Normally there is a reasonable balance based on what can be afforded and what helps grow the business. But sometimes big losses are being made and the realistic choice is change to ensure still have a job to go to in couple of years time.
It really isn't. Maybe for the actual unions. But both RMT and ASLEF members at my toc have all said that they would accept the payrise of roughly 4% and 4% which isn't even 3% a year if you take into account that we didn't and won't be getting one for 2021, if the terms are not changed. The big sticking point being 12 hr movement off spare and floating rest days. I'm not particularly militant, but I will never vote for that. I'm not finding out with three days notice that instead of starting at 8 am , I'm now on a night at 8pm. The companies that have that. I'm looking at you LNER, have a good 12k higher basic for that reason. So why should they get a higher payrise for no change than I would get for a massive change in my conditions.

Portillo has been married (to a woman, Carolyn Eadie) for over 40 yrs. He may be quite flamboyant in terms of dress sense but he isn't gay.
That's not necessarily a great reason to claim he's straight. Philip Schofield was married for many years.
 
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irish_rail

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Because, bluntly, your industry is being propped up by the government and by taxpayers. You do not cover your own costs. Why should we keep paying for you?
By that argument why do we continue to pay for Nurses, Doctors , Firefighters etc. That's what taxes are there for, to pay for essential services.
 

12LDA28C

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When I worked in retail it was like this and often had to work 7 days or more in a row. We only ever got one weekend day off at best. All for minimum wage. If you don't want shift work then don't do a job which requires shift work.

Clearly you're not understanding. Rail workers often have to work 7 days or more in a row, in fact up to 13, legally. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to have a 24-hour roster which can be changed at a few days' notice. When you 'worked in retail', did you have some idea of what your start and finish times would be next week? I imagine you did, and could plan your social life accordingly. Let's say you were booked to work 0900-1800 with a day off on Thursday. Would you then suddenly find out the Friday before that you were instead working 2000-0400 every day with a day off on Tuesday? I very much doubt it.
 

Sunset route

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Without the signaller on Three Bridges Panel 1a about 200,000 people wouldn’t be able to travel each day - he / she is responsible for well over £1m a day for their day‘s work.




With this round of action they have pretty much admitted that they are using the NR operations staff to create the disruption that supports the maintenance side of the dispute. If I was in front line ops, I wouldn’t be happy about losing the opportunity to work rest days for three weeks (including a couple of bank holidays) to support a dispute maintenance is having about something that is largely going to have happened by the end of April.

Sometimes people forget that the railways are more than just train drivers and ASLEF and us signallers have genuine grievances.

Most of these so called outdated work practices were either imposed upon our grade or negotiated into our conditions by Railtrack during the signalman’s restructuring dispute in 1994.

But talking amongst my colleagues in our signalling centre and the neighbouring signalling centres, we would have accepted the pay deal months ago if it wasn’t for the NR conditions attached to alter our current working practices. If NR was to drop them and the Union actually negotiated the operations side of the dispute as a priority and not an afterthought behind the engineering dispute then I’m pretty sure the signalling staff would be back at work by now.
 

ar10642

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By that argument why do we continue to pay for Nurses, Doctors , Firefighters etc. That's what taxes are there for, to pay for essential services.

Are railways essential or is it just a mere inconvience or the customers if they're on strike for a week? Because union members on here seem to pick and choose the answer to that as it seems fit.
 

baz962

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When I worked in retail it was like this and often had to work 7 days or more in a row. We only ever got one weekend day off at best. All for minimum wage. If you don't want shift work then don't do a job which requires shift work.
What a ridiculous answer. We don't mind the shifts and already do them as per our contract. We just want a decent amount of notice or to not have our days off moved with little notice and not be moved from 8am to a 8pm start at three days notice.
 

ar10642

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Clearly you're not understanding. Rail workers often have to work 7 days or more in a row, in fact up to 13, legally. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to have a 24-hour roster which can be changed at a few days' notice. When you 'worked in retail', did you have some idea of what your start and finish times would be next week? I imagine you did, and could plan your social life accordingly. Let's say you were booked to work 0900-1800 with a day off on Thursday. Would you then suddenly find out the Friday before that you were instead working 2000-0400 every day with a day off on Tuesday? I very much doubt it.

The hours weren't as extreme, between 7am - 8pm, 7-6 on Sunday, but no I had no idea what days I had off or what shifts until whenever the manager got round to doing the rota. I doubt it's any different now.
 

12LDA28C

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The hours weren't as extreme, between 7am - 8pm, 7-6 on Sunday, but no I had no idea what days I had off or what shifts until whenever the manager got round to doing the rota. I doubt it's any different now.

If your manager hadn't done the next week's roster by Friday afternoon, I would say they weren't a very good manager and this certainly isn't representative of the retail industry as a whole. I worked in retail myself for 4 years and never encountered the situation you describe.
 

43066

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The hours weren't as extreme, between 7am - 8pm, 7-6 on Sunday, but no I had no idea what days I had off or what shifts until whenever the manager got round to doing the rota. I doubt it's any different now.

This proves that you have absolutely no concept of railway shifts. 0700 is a lie in by railway standards.

Your argument appears to be that railway staff should have to lump awful Ts and Cs just because you settled for them?!
 

ar10642

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So proving that you have absolutely no concept of railway shifts. 0700 is a lie in by railway standards.

Your argument appears to be that railway staff should have to lump awful Ts and Cs just because you settled for them?!

I already said the hours were different, but that's what you signed up to no? Why can't a negotiation happen without threatening strikes then? Why is it always this militant standoff?

If your manager hadn't done the next week's roster by Friday afternoon, I would say they weren't a very good manager and this certainly isn't representative of the retail industry as a whole. I worked in retail myself for 4 years and never encountered the situation you describe.

Dunno maybe he wasn't, but we didn't threaten to strike and kill the company if we didn't like it. You either did it or left.
 

XAM2175

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Why can’t they run the trains but just not collect fares? It’d only be disruptive to the TOCs.
Well that’s stupid, it’s the better way to strike,surely
The two main forms of 'protected' industrial action in the UK are 1) the complete withdrawal of labour - a strike, in other words, and 2) doing only the minimum required to fulfil the terms of employment, i.e. 'work to rule', which includes overtime bans and the like.

Employees on strike forfeit their pay for the time they're on strike, and have that time deducted from their duration of employment when things like statutory redundancy payments are calculated. On the other hand, employees working to rule are paid because they are doing exactly what their job requires them to do, even though the withdrawal of "above and beyond" working like overtime can still cause the company losses.

A 'strike' that involves only ignoring revenue collection meets neither of these standards, because the employees would be collecting their full wages despite doing less than their whole job.

It also must be noted that it wouldn't be a very effective form of industrial action for staff who don't have revenue-collection responsibilities to begin with.
 

Intercity110

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The two main forms of 'protected' industrial action in the UK are 1) the complete withdrawal of labour - a strike, in other words, and 2) doing only the minimum required to fulfil the terms of employment, i.e. 'work to rule', which includes overtime bans and the like.

Employees on strike forfeit their pay for the time they're on strike, and have that time deducted from their duration of employment when things like statutory redundancy payments are calculated. On the other hand, employees working to rule are paid because they are doing exactly what their job requires them to do, even though the withdrawal of "above and beyond" working like overtime can still cause the company losses.

A 'strike' that involves only ignoring revenue collection meets neither of these standards, because the employees would be collecting their full wages despite doing less than their whole job.

It also must be noted that it wouldn't be a very effective form of industrial action for staff who don't have revenue-collection responsibilities to begin with.
I never thought of that
 

DarloRich

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Dunno maybe he wasn't, but we didn't threaten to strike and kill the company if we didn't like it. You either did it or left.

The point you (and others) seem to be making is that becuase you had to lump it and were unable to resist EVERYONE should do the same.

Perhaps you should have joined USDAW and asked for some help!

I already said the hours were different, but that's what you signed up to no? Why can't a negotiation happen without threatening strikes then? Why is it always this militant standoff?
You seem to think that negotiation goes as follows

Union: we want a 45% wage rise

Employer: No

Union: right everyone out!

The reality is talks go on for months and months before you even get near a ballot.
 

baz962

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I already said the hours were different, but that's what you signed up to no? Why can't a negotiation happen without threatening strikes then? Why is it always this militant standoff?



Dunno maybe he wasn't, but we didn't threaten to strike and kill the company if we didn't like it. You either did it or left.
I agree with you on a point for once. Why can't a negotiation happen without strikes. The answer is because we have been trying to get a payrise for three years and there comes a point where the government won't listen and actually kept lying about being involved. Kind of left the RMT and ASLEF with nowhere to go. Maybe you should ask the government why.
 

Thirteen

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I agree with you on a point for once. Why can't a negotiation happen without strikes. The answer is because we have been trying to get a payrise for three years and there comes a point where the government won't listen and actually kept lying about being involved. Kind of left the RMT and ASLEF with nowhere to go. Maybe you should ask the government why.
This is entirely off-topic but I assume that it's similar in other scenarios which aren't pay or T&Cs related where striking should in theory be a last resort like the situation with TfL and the various reforms to do with pensions and cost savings.
 

ar10642

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I agree with you on a point for once. Why can't a negotiation happen without strikes. The answer is because we have been trying to get a payrise for three years and there comes a point where the government won't listen and actually kept lying about being involved. Kind of left the RMT and ASLEF with nowhere to go. Maybe you should ask the government why.

So there is no better way to do things and we just have to live with a railway that is forever unreliable due to near constant industrial action?

What's the point in having a railway if nobody can rely on it? Maybe we should spend the money on something else.
 

Thirteen

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So there is no better way to do things and we just have to live with a railway that is forever unreliable due to near constant industrial action?

What's the point in having a railway if nobody can rely on it? Maybe we should spend the money on something else.
I think you're being hyperbole, they're not going to shut down the entire railway network to spite the unions.
 

43066

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I already said the hours were different, but that's what you signed up to no?

No, it isn’t what any of us signed up to. That’s the whole point. We all accept shift work - which is difficult enough as it is - but we at least have a roster set a long way into the future. Not even knowing which days or times you’re working from one week to the next is totally unacceptable - it isn’t the difference between an 0700 or an 0900 start, it’s the difference between at 0800 or a 2000 start.

Why can't a negotiation happen without threatening strikes then? Why is it always this militant standoff?

Ask the government? My union was trying to negotiate from the middle of last year, but the TOC was prevented from doing so by the agreement they had been forced to sign with the government. The very same government that then spent months telling the public that the dispute was between the employers and the unions and nothing to do with them.

Dunno maybe he wasn't, but we didn't threaten to strike and kill the company if we didn't like it. You either did it or left.

So “like it or lump it”. No thanks!

Maybe if more people stood up for themselves we wouldn’t have so many gig economy type jobs with awful pay and zero job security in this country.

So there is no better way to do things and we just have to live with a railway that is forever unreliable due to near constant industrial action?

The better alternative would be engaging with the unions and negotiating. Or do you think the government is blameless in all this?
 

ar10642

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I think you're being hyperbole, they're not going to shut down the entire railway network to spite the unions.

Well it's a valid question. Everyone on here is saying there's no other way and everyone should just be quiet and put up with a service that is basically useless for any journey you might want to make more than 2 weeks in advance, and to always either be ready to cancel it or have an alternative in place (but also it's somehow essential). How long are people going to be happy to pay high fares and taxes for such a service?

No, it isn’t what any of us signed up to. That’s the whole point. We all accept shift work - which is difficult enough as it is - but we at least have a roster set a long way into the future. Not even knowing which days or times you’re working from one week to the next is totally unacceptable - it isn’t the difference between an 0700 or an 0900 start, it’s the difference between at 0800 or a 2000 start.



Ask the government? My union was trying to negotiate from the middle of last year, but the TOC was prevented from doing so by the agreement they had been forced to sign with the government. The very same government that then spent months telling the public that the dispute was between the employers and the unions and nothing to do with them.



So “like it or lump it”. No thanks!

Maybe if more people stood up for themselves we wouldn’t have so many gig economy type jobs with awful pay and zero job security in this country.



The better alternative would be engaging with the unions and negotiating. Or do you think the government is blameless in all this?

The government you voted for aren't blameless, no. But they'll likely be out next year, so what's the point of all this now?
 

Fred26

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Because until a few days ago it looked like negotiated settlements were in sight.

Now the RMT have decided not only to move the goalposts, but to change the pitch entirely I suppose anything is possible. Apart from a negotiated settlement. That now appears impossible.

When did it look like negotiated settlements were in sight? I don't remember that.

How have the RMT moved the goalposts?

Even if what you are trying to say is true, the government could've imposed changes months ago, if they so wanted.
I don't think the government have any intention of imposing, nor do I think they want to settle. I think they want to destroy the trade union movement in this country.
 

Bald Rick

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Changes should have been done in consultation with the union rather than forced.

They have been done in consultation. For nearly two years in the case of NR (and see below)

My question is; why hasn't the government just imposed these changes?

Because the employers, believe it or not, want to hear what those affected by the changes think about them, and Therefore respond to genuine concerns. That is the ‘machinery’ of consultation and negotiation. Of course there comes a point where such consultations have to end, or nothing gets done.

If train drivers are generating vast sums of money for the TOCs why on earth should we be now in a 4th year without a payrise and being told that we need to dramatically change our working practices.

yes because the train drivers not generate the vast sums of money all by themselves …. :rolleyes:


The RMT are pretty shrewd negotiators, so I wouldn’t be so sure of that.

In my experience of this dispute, they have not been shrewd negotiators.


But talking amongst my colleagues in our signalling centre and the neighbouring signalling centres, we would have accepted the pay deal months ago if it wasn’t for the NR conditions attached to alter our current working practices.

This has confused me. What are the proposed changes in Ts & Cs for signallers. Everything I have seen has been relatively minor in nature.


How have the RMT moved the goalposts?

By negotiating with NR on changes to maintenance working practices for two years, then saying last week they wouldn’t accept any of them.
 

SussexSeagull

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To address a few points:

I am sure if me or anyone else was to take a look at, for example, the terms and conditions and rules governing the way a Train Driver does their job it would probably look odd to most of us. However they are probably in there for a very good reason on the grounds it is an important job that can involve carrying up to 1,000 people on a train. If I am on a train you can be sure I want the driver suitably rested and able to do the job properly and having that written into a rule book stops pressure being brought to bear on the driver to skip breaks when trains overrun (for example).

Now that isn't to say things shouldn't evolve as the purpose of the railway changes from time to time, the most recent being the acceleration of people working from home since lockdown, but it does need to be thought through.

As for subsidising trains, this country has developed over the last couple of centuries where a lot of institutions have based themselves in the cities, especially London. In broad terms Beeching did away with village stations and if we started doing the same with town ones that would stop a lot of people outside of cities accessing these institutions for work or leisure purposes and create a massive imbalance. Renting or buying in cities is beyond many people so we have created a commuter class that need access to trains as they live away from work.

For example Thameslink 2000 was sold with direct trains from Littlehampton going through the core and they now only going to London Bridge, which is returning things exactly where they started before several billion pounds worth of public money was spent. The country outside of cities need a subsidised railway unless you want to increase the divide between cities and elsewhere.
 

Llanigraham

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But talking amongst my colleagues in our signalling centre and the neighbouring signalling centres, we would have accepted the pay deal months ago if it wasn’t for the NR conditions attached to alter our current working practices. If NR was to drop them and the Union actually negotiated the operations side of the dispute as a priority and not an afterthought behind the engineering dispute then I’m pretty sure the signalling staff would be back at work by now.

I am hearing the same from ex-collegues over this side of the country.
Also murmours of working exactly to the Rule Book........
 

WizCastro197

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It wouldn’t surprise me if he did say it.
He did say ASLEF don’t recognise the RDG, yet has spent the last two weeks in meetings with them.
This argument doesn’t add up. To spin it around: China don’t recognise Taiwan yet they’ve been in talks with them. (or they were until a couple months ago).
 

bazzarati

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They have been done in consultation. For nearly two years in the case of NR (and see below)

You seem like a nice chap, Rick, carefully answering questions, but I will believe the maintenance people that I speak to in the branch meeting. At the most recent one there was a maintenance guy on the verge of tears I simply don't trust NR.
 

Sunset route

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This has confused me. What are the proposed changes in Ts & Cs for signallers. Everything I have seen has been relatively minor in nature.

Whether you think they are minor points and I believe they are major stumbling points is a matter of perspective and personal view. But in over 7 months now neither the company as expanded it’s text beyond the bullet points so we can actually see what they are proposing in depth nor has the union via negotiation has come with any answers to our questions. So you got to believe the worse case scenario until proved otherwise. But there are three or four changes to the T&Cs that have got some of my colleagues and myself worried.

Most companies will come up with plans that suit its business needs and unions will come up plans to protect the workforce, the trick is to find the compromise.
 

NI 271

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Well it's a valid question. Everyone on here is saying there's no other way and everyone should just be quiet and put up with a service that is basically useless for any journey you might want to make more than 2 weeks in advance, and to always either be ready to cancel it or have an alternative in place (but also it's somehow essential).
Just so we're clear here, you're happy for staff to be subject to roster changes a few days beforehand (or at least opposed to them objecting to that), but think it obscene that your travel plans may need to change a fortnight out (or more, as with the latest strikes announced, but never, ever less)?

Quite the standpoint, that.
 
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