RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[FR510]

Would a 2% rise for the TOCs, but with a no compulsory gurantee and no changes to the T&Cs for 4 years, likely be accepted at this stage?

No.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No compulsory redundancies can't be guaranteed past 2 years. There will (I think we can say will) be a change of Government in that time. That may change everything.

I'd take the DOO out and maybe make it 5+5, that'd be similar to the accepted Scottish and Welsh offers.

 

[43066]

I'd take the DOO out and maybe make it 5+5, that'd be similar to the accepted Scottish and Welsh offers.

Can you give Mark Harper a call and suggest it?!

 

[TAS]

At least we can afford MP and Lords expenses and 2nd homes.

I'm not sure how having politicians who only live in London, have no presence in their constituency and can't deal with constituents' issues and other correspondence as they have no staff would resolve this dispute, but do feel free to enlighten me.

 

[Philip]

No compulsory redundancies can't be guaranteed past 2 years. There will (I think we can say will) be a change of Government in that time. That may change everything.

I'd take the DOO out and maybe make it 5+5, that'd be similar to the accepted Scottish and Welsh offers.

The Scottish and Welsh offers don't include closing ticket offices and the new multi-role station position.

Better for all sides of TOC roles (drivers, guards, station staff) to compromise on a lower than expected pay rise if it means all roles are less vulnerable to redundancy.

 

[N0G83]

Not sure that’s correct at all, certainly based on the people I know, including several on 10% plus (with no strings). People have had quite enough of this nonsense now.

Private sector wage growth also at five times that of public sector growth according to the FT a few months ago:


https://www.ft.com/content/d819ba3b-d886-42dd-9be9-511134fc69d2

Are these people on 10% highly skilled or your average joe in the street?

 

[O L Leigh]

1985 stations in England with Exit/Entry stats for 19-20 in the ORR stats, totalling ~2.77 billion entries and exists.
2.54 billion (95%) of those occur at 919 locations.
2.49 billion (90%) of those occur at about 660 locations.
Over half happen at 100 stations!

Forgive me if I am skeptical that scattering staff all over the place on trains is a sensible way to protect revenue.

I think that's a little disingenuous.

There's no doubt that there are many stations that, based on their recorded usage, aren't likely to be leaking much in the way of lost revenue; places like Shippea Hill and Spooner Row, for example. But the services that call at locations such as these are not merely beetling up and down between flyblown hamlets and road crossings, but also serve some of the 919 locations that account for the 95% of usage (I presume that Norwich, Ely, Cambridge and Stansted Airport appear somewhere on that list if not among the 660).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Scottish and Welsh offers don't include closing ticket offices and the new multi-role station position.

No but that'll happen anyway. Plus Scotland has relatively few booking offices compared to England.

I'd take that out too. It's another battle for another time which mostly doesn't involve the RMT.

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

I contributed to the strike thread you can in the summer, and a notice a more realistic tone in this one.

Then I compared the median RMT members salary of £44’000 and ASLEF of £58’000 with that of other public workers- nurses & teachers £37’000!!

I said then if I was PM could I justify giving rail workers more than 3%? When other salaries are much less? I would have to take into account the UK’s ever worsening economic situation -Brexit/COVID/Energy crisis/ negative GDP etc.

I fear that the rail workers will lose most public support for Christmas strikes. Then also you wonderful rail workers will alsostart feeling your pockets lighter and rather bitterly agree to end the strike well into next year.
As a passenger for 70 years I urge you to accept the offer in the electronic ballot.
Please discuss.

 

[43096]

There are other reasons not to do it, but it's nothing like the challenge of scanning 24 doors at once on a 12 car on a busy platform.

Go to München Hbf S-bahn platforms. Up to 12 car trains, 3 doors per car and both sides open. 72 doors all safely worked as DOO.

 

[O L Leigh]

Please discuss.

Given that the offer is contingent on staff accepting a whole raft of measures that affect job security, I don't think your plea will get much support.

As for ASLEF members, we are still waiting to receive an offer. Nothing has been tabled.

 

[Simon11]

Then I compared the median RMT members salary of £44’000 and ASLEF of £58’000 with that of other public workers- nurses & teachers £37’000!!

Please share the source of £44,000 as a median RMT salary! With cleaners and low paid employees part of RMT, I can’t see how you can reach that figure.

I work in the private sector in Rail and got a 9% increase with no debates and no changes to our terms.

The current offer to rail members would hardly be acceptable without wanting to change tandC’s too!

 

[Exscrew]

I contributed to the strike thread you can in the summer, and a notice a more realistic tone in this one.

Then I compared the median RMT members salary of £44’000 and ASLEF of £58’000 with that of other public workers- nurses & teachers £37’000!!

I said then if I was PM could I justify giving rail workers more than 3%? When other salaries are much less? I would have to take into account the UK’s ever worsening economic situation -Brexit/COVID/Energy crisis/ negative GDP etc.

I fear that the rail workers will lose most public support for Christmas strikes. Then also you wonderful rail workers will alsostart feeling your pockets lighter and rather bitterly agree to end the strike well into next year.
As a passenger for 70 years I urge you to accept the offer in the electronic ballot.
Please discuss.

The pay percentage has never really be the big issue, its the changes of T and Cs for staff.

 

[Simon11]

As a passenger for 70 years I urge you to accept the offer in the electronic ballot.
Please discuss.

I therefore assume you recieve a government pension and will receive a generous increase in pension of 10%. Maybe you should give this back!

 

[Need2]

Then I compared the median RMT members salary of £44’000 and ASLEF of £58’000 with that of other public workers- nurses & teachers £37’000!!

I said then if I was PM could I justify giving rail workers more than 3%? When other salaries are much less?

Can you really compare salaries from different companies and different jobs?

A Dr is paid more than a nurse, is that morally right or wrong and does a nurse deserve a pay rise but a Dr doesn’t?

A train driver is paid more than a guard, is that morally right or wrong and does a guard deserve a pay rise but a driver doesn’t?
etc etc etc

Different jobs pay different rates for different reasons.
If you start down the route of the lesser paid should get more of a raise than the more well paid then you are on a slippery slope.
The more you earn, the more you spend otherwise what’s the point of earning more!

 

[infobleep]

Not really, guards / conductors will still be involved in closing the doors.



This is the problem. Why would you vote for something You don’t want but you think others might?

I did want staff to be paid more but felt the organisation couldn't afford it.

 

[GalaxyDog]

How the hell did the "median RMT salary" be £44,000 when most guards etc are more like £30-34k?

 

[Thirteen]

Given that the offer is contingent on staff accepting a whole raft of measures that affect job security, I don't think your plea will get much support.

As for ASLEF members, we are still waiting to receive an offer. Nothing has been tabled.

I am surprised ASLEF haven't done more strike days for their dispute.

 

[Russel]

Has there been any RMT / DFT meetings today, if so, when will we find out the outcome?

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Please share the source of £44,000 as a median RMT salary! With cleaners and low paid employees part of RMT, I can’t see how you can reach that figure.

I work in the private sector in Rail and got a 9% increase with no debates and no changes to our terms.

The current offer to rail members would hardly be acceptable without wanting to change tandC’s too!

Posted by BBC in summer & reposted revision today, backs up the pay rates I quoted

Train strike: How much are rail workers paid?

There have been different claims made about how much rail workers get paid.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[station_road]

How the hell did the "median RMT salary" be £44,000 when most guards etc are more like £30-34k?

The RMT say that the median salary of their members is £31k

https://fullfact.org/economy/RMT-strike-salary/

WHAT WAS CLAIMED​

The average rail worker earns £44,000.

OUR VERDICT​

This figure is the median salary for rail sector roles. It includes train drivers, few of whom are involved in the RMT strike, and excludes other workers such as cleaners, who are. The RMT says the median salary of its rail members is £31,000.

Posted by BBC in summer & reposted revision today, backs up the pay rates I quoted

Train strike: How much are rail workers paid?

There have been different claims made about how much rail workers get paid.

www.bbc.co.uk

And subsequently disproved

 

[KM1991]

I contributed to the strike thread you can in the summer, and a notice a more realistic tone in this one.

Then I compared the median RMT members salary of £44’000 and ASLEF of £58’000 with that of other public workers- nurses & teachers £37’000!!

I said then if I was PM could I justify giving rail workers more than 3%? When other salaries are much less? I would have to take into account the UK’s ever worsening economic situation -Brexit/COVID/Energy crisis/ negative GDP etc.

I fear that the rail workers will lose most public support for Christmas strikes. Then also you wonderful rail workers will alsostart feeling your pockets lighter and rather bitterly agree to end the strike well into next year.
As a passenger for 70 years I urge you to accept the offer in the electronic ballot.
Please discuss.

Nope. Railways workers didn’t cause the effects of brexit, COVID, the energy crisis or negative GDP. Most, if not all, are failures of this government. Ordinary people will not pay the price.

 

[O L Leigh]

Posted by BBC in summer & reposted revision today, backs up the pay rates I quoted

Train strike: How much are rail workers paid?

There have been different claims made about how much rail workers get paid.

www.bbc.co.uk

Right, so the median figure for RMT members according to the BBC is £36,800, not £44,000. The higher figure included train drivers who are not represented by RMT.

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

The pay percentage has never really be the big issue, its the changes of T and Cs for staff.

The terms & conditions relate to improving staff flexibility of a kind that I had throughout 48 years of very varied working in both public & private sector Eg Lloyds Bank redeployed to another branch at a few days notice. Expecting to work every other Sunday in nursing.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Oh Lord, the BBC....

I'm very rusty on stats but why the ONS chosen to use the median rather than the mean or any other average?

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Nope. Railways workers didn’t cause the effects of brexit, COVID, the energy crisis or negative GDP. Most, if not all, are failures of this government. Ordinary people will not pay the price.

Sadly we all have to bear the load for government for government incompentance. It hits those earning the least (20K) the most.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm very rusty on stats but why the ONS chosen to use the median rather than the mean or any other average?

It is the accepted method because it avoids the figures being skewed by outlying observations (e.g. small numbers of extremely high or low paid households).

 

[CFRAIL]

Honestly, I'd personally accept the 4+4, IF the subject of DOO is removed or at least clarified. Compulsory redundancies could be changed to voluntary and would (I suspect) be over subscribed.
Those advocating for DOO do realise that ticket prices wouldn't decrease if the second member of staff was removed don't they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly, I'd personally accept the 4+4, IF the subject of DOO is removed or at least clarified. Compulsory redundancies could be changed to voluntary and would (I suspect) be over subscribed.

Perhaps the clause could involve a comprehensive programme of redeployment, of voluntary and of early retirement with the outline offer attached to that must be conducted before any compulsory, for an indefinite period, as that's the best way anyway.

Those advocating for DOO do realise that ticket prices wouldn't decrease if the second member of staff was removed don't they?

Taxpayer subsidy is also very relevant. If anything more relevant, because it's paid by people who don't even have a use for the railway.

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Right, so the median figure for RMT members according to the BBC is £36,800, not £44,000. The higher figure included train drivers who are not represented by RMT.

So that is close to the average university qualified public service worker (nurses, Social workers, teachers etc) who are also offered around 3%. A fair offer in this economic climate.
Bear in mind that they only qualify after 3 years & are also paying off student loans of 35-50K which our wonderful railway servants do not have.