RMT on a "war footing" to threaten a national strike

[The Planner]

If the Signallers come out it will affect everything (except where management can staff a limited number of boxes for part of the day, as per the 1994 strike).

See above. Easiest way to cripple the network is getting the signallers out.

You won't hear anything about it, but NR have considered and are acting on this potential outcome for a long time already.

 

[Dai Corner]

You won't hear anything about it, but NR have considered and are acting on this potential outcome for a long time already.

One wonders what sort of service could be run utilising automatic route setting, management and non RMT members.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In some typical RMT-style press releases from not too long ago, the RMT were fond of referring to "basket cases". A hypothetical "look in the mirror" would reveal who the said "basket cases" actually are.

 

[wobman]

A bit to early to say “commuting is dead”, when it demonstrably isn’t. Let’s see where the industry is in a year or so (or even two years). If passenger numbers even get back to what they were ten years ago there will still be significant overcrowding (at least in my area).

The books are never truly balanced on the railway, either. The industry exists not to make a profit in its own right (which historically most bits of it are pretty poor at doing) but to facilitate other economic activity through transport.






I think you’ll find most people who despise the RMT despise ASLEF too!

The pandemic restrictions are just lifting and now quite a few office staff are being told to go back to their workplaces, I know this as a fact from people being told from September it back to normal.

I agree with your comments wholeheartedly I've never seen the holiday tourist traffic so busy on the railway, once the commutters slowly start returning then people will see it's not all doom and gloom on the railway.

Theirs so much negativity towards the railways and it's staff by many posters, I do wonder what they want from the railways.

 

[Jozhua]

Comedy timing really - all they are going to do is hurt the railway industry and the current anti-rail government will be more than happy to facilitate the shrinking of the industry.

I also oppose cutting of service, with the caveat that operational patterns should change for a better spread of service throughout the day and on weekends.

Let's also be realistic here though, if the government is sensible, cuts will be made mostly to peak services in to London - most TOCs in the rest of the country don't really run a very peak-y service anyway as often times there is not station capacity to do so. Having the entire country's rail staff go on strike over what is essentially mostly a London issue seems a bit ridiculous and highly counterproductive.

Also isn't RMT essentially just cutting service for the government anyway here?

 

[nw1]

The RMT need to grow up.

Everyone is gradually figuring out how much the world has changed, but changed it has. The railways can play an important part in the 'new world', but the RMT's apparent desire to cover their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears and pretend nothing has changed and nothing needs to change means they'll just end up getting left behind.

It's time to engage constructively in shaping the future.

Though again playing devil's advocate somewhat, should people accept the world has changed - particularly, and I emphasise this, once Covid is no longer a significant risk?

I don't want to comment on the rights and wrongs of this particular strike (I can see arguments for and against, though I absolutely defend the right for any worker to strike if they feel their job is under threat) but unless people do protest against the rather scary - in my view - 'new world', then the transition to the 'new world', will continue unopposed even though large sections of the population may not like it.

As I said,a world where we're stuck at home more, there are less jobs as a result of people travelling to, and being at, a workplace less and, and more critical work is being done online in scenarios where we cannot be sure of our privacy, is a rather scary one. It's one in which one of the political mores of the past 10-20 years - privacy - appears to be being cast aside. It's also one in which the burden of the costs of Covid will be felt by ordinary people rather than the rich and powerful, who will, as always, defend their own interests. (How much will Boris Johnson suffer personally or financially in the coming years? Absolute zilch, I suspect). Once Covid has died down, people unhappy about the 'new world' and its risks to jobs, privacy, and quality of life need to make themselves heard.

Philosophically, the argument 'people need to accept that the world is changing' is often made by powerful or influential people who want the world to change because it benefits them, or their organisations. Should people accept the world is changing? Or should people try, by protest or by ballot box, to steer the world in the way that they want it?

 

[Horizon22]

As per usual, the RMT completely out of step with prevailing trends. The railway will have to change and the best position for the RMT would be to appreciate this and help shape the change for the railway (including protecting staff rights and roles) instead of indiscriminately mouthing off in press releases and alienating the public.

You won't hear anything about it, but NR have considered and are acting on this potential outcome for a long time already.

Well the worst case scenario in priority order probably goes signallers/ECO > drivers > maintenance > controllers so I wouldn't be surprised if NR had contingencies in place!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Part of the RMT's frustration is that they can only negotiate with the TOC management (different with NR of course), and GBR doesn't exist yet.
So while the future industry structure and service levels are being decided by government and industry advisors, the unions can only react locally.
If GBR is set up to own operations staff (let's say LNER and Northern go that way, being as they are DfT controlled), the union fight will be with GBR.
It remains to be seen what level of control the government will have over terms and conditions when GBR is formed.
While gov won't want the hassle and embarrassment of negotiating directly with the unions (anyone remember "beer and sandwiches at No 10"?), they will certainly want to limit railway costs and improve productivity.
Meanwhile it looks like the government will maintain at least some private TOCs as the contracting arm of service delivery.
The issues in Wales and Scotland are no different as the devolved governments face the same long-term issues of loss of revenue and higher subsidy.

 

[Dai Corner]

Part of the RMT's frustration is that they can only negotiate with the TOC management (different with NR of course), and GBR doesn't exist ....The issues in Wales and Scotland are no different as the devolved governments face the same long-term issues of loss of revenue and higher subsidy.

A significant difference in Wales is that the TOC is wholly owned by the Labour-run Government which is likely to be more receptive to Union demands than the Conservatives in England. I wonder if Welsh Labour get large donations from the RMT?

 

[SWTurbo]

As a new starter with the industry (signaller):

The only reason I'm still in the RMT is for my own protection should I drop a clanger. Other than that I find them very outdated and their officers stuck in a 70s mentality. Neither as a guard do I expect any support from ASLEF.
RMT aught to be very careful as they are trying to fight both the TOCs and a government neither of whom have any time for guards.

As has been said by Highland below, from what I've seen, there is less of an uptake to the RMT (although we had half a day with some national reps where the idea was force-fed to us) but I've been told by some existing signallers that it's now one of the only reasons many are in is to cover their behinds should the brown stuff hit the fan. Is it the same across the other operational grades then?

No, and a vote amongst signallers for industrial action about the role of guards is very unlikely to succeed, if it would even be legal to ballot for that (which I don’t think it would be?). There’s not really anything brewing at the moment in NR to lead to a dispute with signallers apart from maybe the lack of pay award.

In any case fewer and fewer signallers are in the RMT now sadly; the grade used to be solid but now many new starts just aren’t bothering to join as they come into the rail industry with a profoundly negative view of the RMT and trade unions in general.

As above, i'm currently not in the RMT (or any other union for that matter) but have been pondering for a while. Is it really that beneficial, or is it just useful to cover me should I muck up? I realise the strength lies in numbers, but if the numbers are waning, surely the overall strength will decline as well?

(Apologies if any of this has already been mentioned, I had a couple of burning questions!)

 

[Cardiff123]

A significant difference in Wales is that the TOC is wholly owned by the Labour-run Government which is likely to be more receptive to Union demands than the Conservatives in England. I wonder if Welsh Labour get large donations from the RMT?

Welsh Labour is not a stand alone political party, it is a sub-division of the UK Labour party. Therefore the RMT cannot directly donate to Welsh Labour, any donations they make would go straight to the UK Labour party, who then distribute funds across the party in England, Scotland and Wales.

 

[Dai Corner]

Welsh Labour is not a stand alone political party, it is a sub-division of the UK Labour party. Therefore the RMT cannot directly donate to Welsh Labour, any donations they make would go straight to the UK Labour party, who then distribute funds across the party in England, Scotland and Wales.

Welsh Labour appear to be soliciting donations on their website

One-Off Donation to Welsh Labour – Organisations and Donations over £500​

To inquire about making a company or organisation donation, or a donation over £500, please complete the following form.

 

[FOCTOC]

As a fully paid up Aslef member, I can only say these people do not speak for all rail workers. An awful union who are doing untold damage to the railway. Unfortunately Joe Public will tar all rail workers with the RMT brush.

From experience, ASLEF are little better.

 

[ScotGG]

What jobs losses are proposed?

To me it seems a false economy if on-board and station staff are lost. People will just stop paying and fare evasion rises.

You only have to look at Southeastern metro (and areas like Silverlink before) to see the impact. You can do many journeys risk free without paying - and many, many people do.

 

[Starmill]

What jobs losses are proposed?

I don't think any have been proposed as yet except for a consultation at Network Rail.

 

[ScotGG]

Cheers. It would be very silly to go down the SE Metro / Silverlink route as a short term cost saving.

It's not just that word quickly gets around people don't have to pay, but lack of staffing can mean greater antisocial behaviour with some people then giving up on rail if it doesn't feel safe.

 

[coppercapped]

I would guess this applies to many people. There is respect for the professionalism of ASLEF management, but considerable disgust with the RMT management. It's time for the rank and file members to oust their top team.

It seems to me that there are parallels with the situation being discussed here and that existing in the Labour Party up to the mid-1990s.

Until then Clause 4 of the Party’s constitution called for the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange. It was adopted by the party in 1918 under very different social, political and economic circumstances. Although it did not expressly call for nationalistion this was the commonly accepted interpretation. In many people’s minds this made the party unelectable - partly due to the poor performance of nationalised industries and local government leading to the election of the Thatcher government in 1979. The ‘Winter of Discontent’, anyone?

Following earlier attempts in the 1980s, Tony Blair, after a struggle, managed to get the Clause 4 amended in 1995 removing the aim of common ownership and replacing it by a set of values which would remain constant even as society and the economy evolved; he then won three successive General Elections.

If the RMT is to survive as an effective trade union it too will have to face its ‘Clause 4’ moment as No. 4(b) in the RMT’s list of Objects call for it:

(b) to work for the supersession of the capitalist system by a socialistic order of society;

At a local and branch level such high-level aims and objects have little or no relevance, but they do have a relevance to the high level management. They are one of the significant reasons that people try to reach executive committee level in the Union in the first place and they affect the way that the executive committee view or react to events.

The divide being commented on in this thread between the local levels and the executive committee will not be narrowed until the RMT amends 4(b) to remove this essentially political objective from its constitution. In my opinion such an objective has nothing to do with labour relations between employees (and their union) and their employer in negotiating pay rates or Terms and Conditions.

This is not an 'anti-union' diatribe, but a suggestion as to how the RMT can stay as an effective representative for a widely spread workforce running a 24 hour, 7 days a week business. With the best will in the world the business management cannot be aware of all the issues facing staff at every remote site at odd hours - an effective trade union is a necessity to ensure any and all such issues do not get overlooked.

 

[Robertj21a]

No, and a vote amongst signallers for industrial action about the role of guards is very unlikely to succeed, if it would even be legal to ballot for that (which I don’t think it would be?). There’s not really anything brewing at the moment in NR to lead to a dispute with signallers apart from maybe the lack of pay award.

In any case fewer and fewer signallers are in the RMT now sadly; the grade used to be solid but now many new starts just aren’t bothering to join as they come into the rail industry with a profoundly negative view of the RMT and trade unions in general.

Hardly surprisingly !!

 

[Highlandspring]

Hardly surprisingly !!

It is unsurprising given the media’s reporting on unions but what they don’t broadcast is that away from all the political posturing nonsense from the executive, the RMT at regional and local level is actually a very effective, sensible and measured organisation which works very hard to ensure fair treatment of everyone in the grades it represents. Certainly in NR the relationship between the staff side and management side is generally positive and collaborative. Not all local reps are brilliant of course but the vast majority I’ve come across have been genuine in their intentions and helpful when I’ve needed them.

What typically happens in the signalling grade is that a new starter comes in and doesn’t join the union because they believe the media image that all RMT members are rabid card carrying ‘power to the workers’ communists out to cause anarchy, even though they’re happy to take the pay award and conditions that the union negotiated over the years. Then a year or two into the job some issue comes up, an investigation into an incident or a problem with rostering or whatever, and they sudden realise they have no one on their side at work to back them up and help put their case to the management. That’s when they suddenly realise the value of the union.

With the best will in the world the business management cannot be aware of all the issues facing staff at every remote site at odd hours - an effective trade union is a necessity to ensure any and all such issues do not get overlooked.

This is exactly right, I couldn’t have put it any better myself.

 

[XAM2175]

With the best will in the world the business management cannot be aware of all the issues facing staff at every remote site at odd hours - an effective trade union is a necessity to ensure any and all such issues do not get overlooked.

... the RMT at regional and local level is actually a very effective, sensible and measured organisation which works very hard to ensure fair treatment of everyone in the grades it represents ...

Which is what makes all the carry-on at the top levels that much more unfortunate.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A significant difference in Wales is that the TOC is wholly owned by the Labour-run Government which is likely to be more receptive to Union demands than the Conservatives in England. I wonder if Welsh Labour get large donations from the RMT?

Wales has the same funding problems as the rest of the UK.
A more favourable settlement for TfW would mean they would take the money from elsewhere in the Welsh budget. Schools? Health?
Eventually, the pips will squeak.

 

[Smidster]

The best, and only, way to ensure there are no reductions in services post Covid is to ensure that patronage returns to pre-2020 levels in the immediate term.

The biggest barrier to that, from a customer perspective, is the delivery of a reliable and effective service.

All a strike does is justify the decision many people will make to not bother with public transport and make their own arrangements.

 

[158756]

Comedy timing really - all they are going to do is hurt the railway industry and the current anti-rail government will be more than happy to facilitate the shrinking of the industry.

I also oppose cutting of service, with the caveat that operational patterns should change for a better spread of service throughout the day and on weekends.

Let's also be realistic here though, if the government is sensible, cuts will be made mostly to peak services in to London - most TOCs in the rest of the country don't really run a very peak-y service anyway as often times there is not station capacity to do so. Having the entire country's rail staff go on strike over what is essentially mostly a London issue seems a bit ridiculous and highly counterproductive.

Also isn't RMT essentially just cutting service for the government anyway here?

The reality is the railway has a huge problem. Cuts are inevitable. But the government would be very happy if people dismiss this as just an issue for the commuter peaks in London. Scotrail's cuts largely affect off peak services as well as obviously being nowhere near London, and that's with the Scottish government calling the shots. We haven't seen yet what Westminster has in store for Northern or the South West and other unprofitable areas, or how much support the Welsh government is willing or able to offer it's already massively subsidised network.

 

[Darandio]

The biggest barrier to that, from a customer perspective, is the delivery of a reliable and effective service.

It isn't the only barrier. There is a range of mixed mesaging out there still telling passengers to only travel if necessary, yet others are rightly encouraging it. There were the recent press releases from Network Rail telling everyone that travelling on trains is safe and they performed testing to back this up to show Covid is not present. Then the RSSB started making noises about their models predicting how many people may die after travelling on services only months after preaching how safe train travel is compared to using the car.

If the industry as whole cannot sing from the same hymn sheet and give passengers complete confidence in how safe railway travel is then they are never going to come back.

 

[stj]

Although it was a Friday before the August bank holiday weekend, so can't really be used for a comparison as in previous years, August has generally been quieter with annual leave.

It's the same with my local station, 200 spaces and at most 30 vehicles parked up during the middle of a weekday, although most in the top car park which isn't covered by the ANPR cameras due to having residential properties near by

Its been like this for 18 months

 

[Robertj21a]

It is unsurprising given the media’s reporting on unions but what they don’t broadcast is that away from all the political posturing nonsense from the executive, the RMT at regional and local level is actually a very effective, sensible and measured organisation which works very hard to ensure fair treatment of everyone in the grades it represents. Certainly in NR the relationship between the staff side and management side is generally positive and collaborative. Not all local reps are brilliant of course but the vast majority I’ve come across have been genuine in their intentions and helpful when I’ve needed them.

What typically happens in the signalling grade is that a new starter comes in and doesn’t join the union because they believe the media image that all RMT members are rabid card carrying ‘power to the workers’ communists out to cause anarchy, even though they’re happy to take the pay award and conditions that the union negotiated over the years. Then a year or two into the job some issue comes up, an investigation into an incident or a problem with rostering or whatever, and they sudden realise they have no one on their side at work to back them up and help put their case to the management. That’s when they suddenly realise the value of the union.



This is exactly right, I couldn’t have put it any better myself.

I'm not sure that anybody in recent posts has suggested that the RMT is poor at the local level, indeed, many have heaped praise on the local officials. It's the RMT senior management that appears, as usual, to be wildly out of touch - something which the rank and file members seen unwilling, or unable, to do anything about.

 

[Dai Corner]

Wales has the same funding problems as the rest of the UK.
A more favourable settlement for TfW would mean they would take the money from elsewhere in the Welsh budget. Schools? Health?
Eventually, the pips will squeak.

Roads. The new Minister for Climate Change has 'paused' all major road projects.

 

[Six Bells]

As an RMT member (Although as a signaller rather than onboard staff) I feel that the union would do well to remember that any industrial action, regardless of union, can only succeed with a reasonable degree of public support. I don't feel that this level of support exists at the moment.

However, that is not to say that the union, as with ASLEF, havent done a good job for members during the past decade. A period of long term poor pay rises for most of the UK, yet my wage is, by my own admission, more than reasonable (Even considering the responsibilities attached to it)

 

[Horizon22]

The best, and only, way to ensure there are no reductions in services post Covid is to ensure that patronage returns to pre-2020 levels in the immediate term.

The biggest barrier to that, from a customer perspective, is the delivery of a reliable and effective service.

All a strike does is justify the decision many people will make to not bother with public transport and make their own arrangements.

The biggest barrier in many places (especially London & SE) is a growth in home working. There's simply no way in the short-term that the railway will be able to make up all that patronage in the peaks.

 

[Goldfish62]

Glad to see the RMT taking action, it's clear the government are hoping to sneak through cuts on a large scale under Covid and GBR and if they're to have any impact at all now is the time.

That attitude really worked well for British Leyland, docks and print workers...