RMT reporting that Merseyrail have suspended off peak ticket sales from Liverpool Central/Moorfields - Aintree for Grand National weekend.

[Dai Corner]

Maybe that is the problem - if higher fares are being charged, their members should be being paid more?

I'd imagine they're earning lots of overtime, some at more than normal hourly rates.

 

[TUC]

Unless they've removed the fare or added a dated restriction like GWR and ScotRail do with groupsave, there's nothing to stop it being sold elsewhere, just remember to print your ToD before you travel.

So if this is Merseyrail as a retailer refusing to sell a particular ticket tomorrow, how does that fit with the impartial retailing requirements? I understand this includes:
'Impartiality simply means providing the customer with information or a ticket that is the most suitable for their needs'.

If the £4.60 Standard Return is most suitable for the customer's needs, what right does Merseyrail have to say it is not available? Isn't it nothing but a lie?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So if this is Merseyrail as a retailer refusing to sell a particular ticket tomorrow, how does that fit with the impartial retailing requirements? I understand this includes:
'Impartiality simply means providing the customer with information or a ticket that is the most suitable for their needs'.

If the £4.60 Standard Return is most suitable for the customer's needs, what right does Merseyrail have to say it is not available? Isn't it nothing but a lie?

Prospective passengers have no rights to impartial retail. Indeed most modern sales channels are not required to be impartial at all.

Merseyrail's only impartiality liability (at their ticket offices) is towards other TOCs, under the TSA, not customers.

Impartiality is designed to stop TOCs from pushing their own product at the expense of another TOC, not from ensuring customers can / can't purchase a particular fare.

However, given that this situation doesn't adversely effect the other TOCs, it's an issue solely concerning Merseyrail and their customers, it is incredibly unlikely that any other TOC can do anything about it, even if they did have an issue with the practice.

Again, compliance with the TSA is a typical DfT franchise condition, but again, Merseytravel take the role of the DfT here, and I'm not even sure whether the Merseyrail concession agreement requires them to even be a party to the TSA, (although they are), let alone anything around compliance with it. Merseytravel in any event, would likely support Merseyrail's approach.

If a customer asked for a ticket beyond Merseyrail's network, I suspect it would be sold impartially in the usual way.

 

[TUC]

I do find it remarkable that several here are so laid back about Merseyrail's approach. I suspect if it were Avanti or GTR they would call it profiteering, which it is.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the £4.60 Standard Return is most suitable for the customer's needs, what right does Merseyrail have to say it is not available? Isn't it nothing but a lie?

Is this £4.60 Anytime Day Return actually the fare that's not available tomorrow? Or is it something else that's not available?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Is this £4.60 Anytime Day Return actually the fare that's not available tomorrow? Or is it something else that's not available?

A special £6 flat fare all day ticket is in place, so the usual single / return tickets aren't available to purchase from Merseyrail ticket offices. They are available online via TOD (which can then be fulfilled at a ticket office) or from self service ticket machines, and from other nearby TOCs.

Given that most customers probably buy the £5.95 All Zones Merseyrail Day Saver anyway, that group is overpaying by 5p.

The group closer to Liverpool/Aintree that normally buys a £4.45 Zone C Merseyrail Day Saver is overpaying by £1.55 (but getting more validity, whether they want it or not).

Other than Monday to Friday before 09:30, or for very short hops, Anytime Day Singles and Returns on Merseyrail are rarely sold because of the existence of their own Day Saver products and other local multi modal products.

Given that the "locals" are probably well aware to stay away from the Merseyrail carnage this weekend, (and reduced timetable on some non-Aintree routes) I don't think many regulars will be too bothered or affected.

 

[Kite159]

A special £6 flat fare all day ticket is in place, so the usual single / return tickets aren't available to purchase from Merseyrail ticket offices. They are available online via TOD (which can then be fulfilled at a ticket office) or from self service ticket machines, and from other nearby TOCs.

Given that most customers probably buy the £5.95 All Zones Merseyrail Day Saver anyway, that group is overpaying by 5p.

The group closer to Liverpool/Aintree that normally buys a £4.45 Zone C Merseyrail Day Saver is overpaying by £1.55 (but getting more validity, whether they want it or not).

Another hammer in the nail of ticket offices, shame Merseyrail are still living in the 20th century in not having e-tickets available for basic flows like a day return from Liverpool to Aintree.

No doubt if someone tries to collect a ticket (say Liverpool - Aintree) from the ticket office at Liverpool Central they will get refused and be forced to buy the more expensive 'event ranger'.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Another hammer in the nail of ticket offices, shame Merseyrail are still living in the 20th century in not having e-tickets available for basic flows like a day return from Liverpool to Aintree.

No doubt if someone tries to collect a ticket (say Liverpool - Aintree) from the ticket office at Liverpool Central they will get refused and be forced to buy the more expensive 'event ranger'.

As far as I am aware, other than at Aintree station itself, (ticket office is closed due to the queuing layout), TOD is being fulfilled normally everywhere else.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Some complaints on Twitter about this. For example:-

£6 for a ticket to Orrell Park (normal price £2.40) is sharp practice in the extreme. And the reply from Merseyrail is, I think, an all-time great. Apparently the extra cost is for “entertainment”(!)


Seriously, how does this fit in with rules and regulations regarding tickets? Can Merseyrail unilaterally declare that the £6 ticket is the only one available?

The key words in Merseyrail's response being at the racecourse.

Given they generally only price Anytime Day Singles and Returns, I'd assume that a sizeable chunk of their tickets are regulated (and very surprised if flows to/from Aintree weren't.)

My take on what Merseyrail themselves are advertising is that you're encouraged to buy your ticket in advance.

As they're still living in the stone age, however, the only tickets they sell online are Day Savers.

Normal tickets are available from other retailers, but Merseyrail only allow them to bw fulfilled as TODs. However, their TVMs don't support ticket collection so you need to either queue at a Merseyrail Ticket Office to do so, or use another TOC's TVM.

 

[yorkie]

Seriously, how does this fit in with rules and regulations regarding tickets? Can Merseyrail unilaterally declare that the £6 ticket is the only one available?

No; they are not allowed to do this.

However, we do not have a regulator, ombudsman or passenger watchdog who actually has the intelligence, desire, knowledge and clout to actually do anything!

 

[redreni]

I'm not sure why the RMT are complaining though, it doesn't affect their members in any way.

This perhaps misunderstands how the trade union movement, at its best, works collegiately and tries to advocate for the interests of all workers. Passengers are, overwhelmingly, workers. It is also possible that, unlike the senior management of the companies that employ their members, they can see further than the end of their nose and they realise the implications of a "charge what you like" approach being permitted i.e. passengers will be driven away from the railway. I suspect they want capacity shortfalls addressed by improving and expanding the railway instead of suppressing demand by overcharging.

While this particular instance is hardly significant, that is of course how you introduce a culture of overcutting regulated Anytime fares - you start by doing it by a small amount and you do it at major events where the case for suppressing demand is stongest (not that this level of overcharging is going to do that: people bought their tickets for this event months ago and they have to get there).

No; they are not allowed to do this.

However, we do not have a regulator, ombudsman or passenger watchdog who actually has the intelligence, desire, knowledge and clout to actually do anything!

Indeed. If they can get away with it and keep getting away with it, we'll then start seeing policy papers coming out of DfT saying the current rules are "outmoded" or "unworkable" and proposing that the last vestiges of fare regulation are swept away.

Passengers intending to make a journey are entitled to look up an Anytime fare and think "Okay, maybe I'll be able to work out a cheaper way to do this nearer the time when my plans are firmer, but at least I know that's the ceiling. That's the most I'm going to have to pay". This is the kind of information people need to know for budgeting. Not so much, of course, for a short journey like this that only costs a few quid, but it's the principle. This could apply to any journey.

I'm not commenting about whether or not the right to buy walk-up fares exists today in law or in regulations, but it has been the custom and practice throughout my lifetime that, as a passenger, you can rely on the relevant published walk-up fare as being the most you'll have to pay. It would be massively detrimental to passengers if that were to change.

 

[Dai Corner]

This perhaps misunderstands how the trade union movement, at its best, works collegiately and tries to advocate for the interests of all workers. Passengers are, overwhelmingly, workers. It is also possible that, unlike the senior management of the companies that employ their members, they can see further than the end of their nose and they realise the implications of a "charge what you like" approach being permitted i.e. passengers will be driven away from the railway. I suspect they want capacity shortfalls addressed by improving and expanding the railway instead of suppressing demand by overcharging.

While this particular instance is hardly significant, that is of course how you introduce a culture of overcutting regulated Anytime fares - you start by doing it by a small amount and you do it at major events where the case for suppressing demand is stongest (not that this level of overcharging is going to do that: people bought their tickets for this event months ago and they have to get there).

Won't charging more enable more staff to be employed (meaning more members for the unions), or at least pay for overtime (potentially at premium rates) for the members who want it?

 

[redreni]

Won't charging more enable more staff to be employed (meaning more members for the unions), or at least pay for overtime (potentially at premium rates) for the members who want it?

No, I wouldn't think so. Not if staffing levels are at all related to the need for staffing. In that case, fewer passengers paying more might imply a need for fewer staff than more passengers paying less.

Expanding railway capacity could, of course, create a huge number of jobs. It's not only jobs at Merseyrail that are relevant. RMT members aren't tied to one employer and the health of the jobs market in the rail sector is absolutely a legitimate concern of their members.

These issues are of course wider than what RMT can reasonably negotiate about with Merseyrail, but there's nothing to stop them campaigning publicly on wider issues. So that's why it's in their press release - people can like it or dislike it, but there's no particular mystery about why it's there.

 

[Northerngirl]

Perhaps the fare increase is to pay for the flip-flops.

Extra Merseyrail trains running for Grand National

Merseyrail will run trains to Aintree every seven-and-a-half minutes.

www.bbc.co.uk

Any idea how to get the flip flops, if they are extorting me for choosing to get the train tomorrow, I'd like some shoes

 

[Mainline421]

A special £6 flat fare all day ticket is in place, so the usual single / return tickets aren't available to purchase from Merseyrail ticket offices. They are available online via TOD (which can then be fulfilled at a ticket office) or from self service ticket machines, and from other nearby TOCs.

No doubt if someone tries to collect a ticket (say Liverpool - Aintree) from the ticket office at Liverpool Central they will get refused and be forced to buy the more expensive 'event ranger'.

Aside from the one at Aintree being closed I can't see any indication Merseyrail are not offering the full range of tickets from their normal ticket offices. During Aintree they have many extra staff selling these "special" tickets every year.

 

[Joe Paxton]

No doubt if someone tries to collect a ticket (say Liverpool - Aintree) from the ticket office at Liverpool Central they will get refused and be forced to buy the more expensive 'event ranger'.

On the contrary, I have every doubt that what you suggest is what would actually transpire.

Any idea how to get the flip flops, if they are extorting me for choosing to get the train tomorrow, I'd like some shoes

I believe the proceedure involves getting catatonically inebriated whilst wearing unfamiliar high-heeled shoes, and then ending up with blisters and taking them off (losing one of the pair being optional) and going bare foot.

 

[prod_pep]

Aside from the one at Aintree being closed I can't see any indication Merseyrail are not offering the full range of tickets from their normal ticket offices. During Aintree they have many extra staff selling these "special" tickets every year.

Yes, the full range is available from other ticket offices. I had no problem buying the £5.95 all zone day saver from my local station on Thursday or Friday.

 

[Brissle Girl]

On the contrary, I have every doubt that what you suggest is what would actually transpire.




I believe the proceedure involves getting catatonically inebriated whilst wearing unfamiliar high-heeled shoes, and then ending up with blisters and taking them off (losing one of the pair being optional) and going bare foot.

You forgot the bit about the stiletto heels sinking into the mud that was grass on the way in…

 

[yorkie]

A special £6 flat fare all day ticket is in place, so the usual single / return tickets aren't available to purchase from Merseyrail ticket offices. They are available online via TOD (which can then be fulfilled at a ticket office) or from self service ticket machines, and from other nearby TOCs.

Given that most customers probably buy the £5.95 All Zones Merseyrail Day Saver anyway, that group is overpaying by 5p.

The group closer to Liverpool/Aintree that normally buys a £4.45 Zone C Merseyrail Day Saver is overpaying by £1.55 (but getting more validity, whether they want it or not).

Other than Monday to Friday before 09:30, or for very short hops, Anytime Day Singles and Returns on Merseyrail are rarely sold because of the existence of their own Day Saver products and other local multi modal products.

Given that the "locals" are probably well aware to stay away from the Merseyrail carnage this weekend, (and reduced timetable on some non-Aintree routes) I don't think many regulars will be too bothered or affected.

Did Merseyrail relent during the day? Or did some ticket office staff ignore instructions not to sell the usual tickets?

https://twitter.com/jonsey1956/status/1779059158827843829

This isn’t right. I travelled yesterday from Central and was able to buy my usual ticket from the shop. They were selling a special ticket for those who didn’t want the queue from what I could see. Hope this helps.

 

[redreni]

Did Merseyrail relent during the day? Or did some ticket office staff ignore instructions not to sell the usual tickets?

https://twitter.com/jonsey1956/status/1779059158827843829

Judging from their social media responses they're not up for a fight with people who are going to insist on being sold the correct ticket and will kick up a fuss otherwise. They only want to rip off the unwary or those who prefer to join the faster-moving queue for pre-printed tickets despite the difference in price.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Did Merseyrail relent during the day? Or did some ticket office staff ignore instructions not to sell the usual tickets?

https://twitter.com/jonsey1956/status/1779059158827843829

Or are the RMT "mistaken" in their assertion, which also fails to mention there are likely to be RPIs acting as queuebusters and...only selling Day Savers?

Though, of course, said RPIs are likely to be RMT members...

 

[yorkie]

Or are the RMT "mistaken" in their assertion, which also fails to mention there are likely to be RPIs acting as queuebusters and...only selling Day Savers?

Though, of course, said RPIs are likely to be RMT members...

Is this situation only happening at Aintree (where, according to reports, the ticket office has been closed)? Or is it also happening at any origin station if the destination is Aintree?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Other than Monday to Friday before 09:30, or for very short hops, Anytime Day Singles and Returns on Merseyrail are rarely sold because of the existence of their own Day Saver products and other local multi modal products.

Anybody with a railcard (like me) will still buy Anytime fares because the Day Savers are not eligible for railcard discounts.

 

[Bow Fell]

Is this situation only happening at Aintree (where, according to reports, the ticket office has been closed)? Or is it also happening at any origin station if the destination is Aintree?

The special Aintree ticket has been used for years and is designed to be used as a “queuebuster” by RPI’s.

Ticket offices will still retail the normal tickets, Anytime Day Single/Return with the normal railcard discounts or if its cheaper an Area C / All Zone Day Saver would be sold in its place.

 

[Speed Whiskers]

Any idea how to get the flip flops, if they are extorting me for choosing to get the train tomorrow, I'd like some shoes

I think they are handed out at Aintree station at the end of the races.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Do Nexus not do something similar for the Great North Rum?

 

[Wolfie]

Just been on the LNER app. It will sell me a Return from Liverpool Central to Aintree tomorrow for £4.60. I presume other TOC sites will too, so the best way forward would seem to be to buy online and bypass Merseyrail.

If you can actually collect the ticket given the known issues with Merseyrail.

 

[yorkie]

The special Aintree ticket has been used for years and is designed to be used as a “queuebuster” by RPI’s.

Ticket offices will still retail the normal tickets, Anytime Day Single/Return with the normal railcard discounts or if its cheaper an Area C / All Zone Day Saver would be sold in its place.

This is at odds with what @Tazi Hupefi said upthread.

Can anyone confirm what's going on?

 

[Mainline421]

Or did some ticket office staff ignore instructions not to sell the usual tickets.

There was never any instructions to refuse sale of normal tickets as far as I can see. This is just this forum being overly keen to criticise Merseyrail, and they have been overcharging racegoers like this for years.

The only possible exception might be for passengers starting their journey at Aintree unless TVMs are available

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Having heard back, Merseyrail did this at their busiest stations across their network. As explained earlier, they preprint thousands of these £6 ranger tickets and distribute them across their revenue protection teams and certain popular stations to get the queues down to a manageable level - cash only (hence the rounding to £6 instead of £5.95).

Bearing in mind, you're talking queues out of the door and round the block to get to certain ticket offices, most race goers happily hand over £6 to beat all that. Other than at a handful of stations, it would have been possible to join the queue and get a different ticket or pay by card, but I doubt most would be that patient, especially after a few drinks inside them!

At some stations, this fare was actually better value / cheaper than the usual fare, so would have been sold in preference anyway.