RMT reporting that Merseyrail have suspended off peak ticket sales from Liverpool Central/Moorfields - Aintree for Grand National weekend.

[yorkie]

There was never any instructions to refuse sale of normal tickets as far as I can see.

Are the RMT lying? Also what about people who tweeted Merseyrail claiming to have been overcharged?

This is just this forum being overly keen to criticise Merseyrail, and they have been overcharging racegoers like this for years.

Merseyrail thoroughly deserve criticism for multiple instances of poor behaviour, however I do not think it is "this forum" (whatever that means) making this up!

This is based on an RMT press release and real reports from passengers who were unexpectedly charged higher than normal fares. Merseyrail have declined to answer questions which could have clarified matters.

The only possible exception might be for passengers starting their journey at Aintree unless TVMs are available

So, Merseyrail are overcharging people from Aintree only, and that's okay and doesn't deserve to be called out?

Why don't Merseyrail make this clear?

Having heard back, Merseyrail did this at their busiest stations across their network.

So not just at Aintree, as claimed in the above post by @Mainline421?

As explained earlier, they preprint thousands of these £6 ranger tickets and distribute them across their revenue protection teams and certain popular stations to get the queues down to a manageable level - cash only (hence the rounding to £6 instead of £5.95).

Sounds familiar; I recall the LTS franchise pre-printed Travelcards, in order to generate more revenue. I appreciate it's not exactly the same, but there are certain similarities!

The main difference was LTS did so to divert money from other operators to their own pockets, whereas Merseyrail are diverting money from customers to themselves.

Therefore, given the way things work in this country, Merseyrail will probably get away with it, even though what they did was arguably worse.

Bearing in mind, you're talking queues out of the door and round the block to get to certain ticket offices, most race goers happily hand over £6 to beat all that. Other than at a handful of stations, it would have been possible to join the queue and get a different ticket or pay by card, but I doubt most would be that patient, especially after a few drinks inside them!

Merseyrail have not been clear about this, which has resulted in people complaining about being overcharged.

Also, this doesn't quite line up with what RMT are saying? That said, RMT aren't the most reliable of sources!

At some stations, this fare was actually better value / cheaper than the usual fare, so would have been sold in preference anyway.

There is no issue with Merseyrail doing this from those stations!

However the issue is that there are reports of people are being unexpectedly charged higher amounts than they should be charged for the journey they are making.

 

[Mainline421]

So, Merseyrail are overcharging people from Aintree only, and that's okay and doesn't deserve to be called out?

Why don't Merseyrail make this clear?

So not just at Aintree, as claimed in the above post by @Mainline421?

No, there are queue busters in place at many stations. I didn't say it's okay, but posters on here appear to have invented a scenario where a customer goes to a ticket office, asks for a usual ticket and is refused sale and told £6 or nothing. That has not happened and the RMT have not claimed otherwise.

@Tazi Hupefi has explained it well.

 

[Russel]

I'm not sure why the RMT are complaining though, it doesn't affect their members in any way.

No idea, but is anyone surprised ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not sure why the RMT are complaining though, it doesn't affect their members in any way.

Were RMT complaining a few years ago when they carefully ensured a strike action day was the day of the Grand National?

 

[TUC]

Having heard back, Merseyrail did this at their busiest stations across their network. As explained earlier, they preprint thousands of these £6 ranger tickets and distribute them across their revenue protection teams and certain popular stations to get the queues down to a manageable level - cash only (hence the rounding to £6 instead of £5.95).

The usual way of managing quick transactions these days is Contactless. Is even that beyond the imagination of Merseyrail?

 

[Kite159]

The usual way of managing quick transactions these days is Contactless. Is even that beyond the imagination of Merseyrail?

Especially as carrying cash is a security risk in itself. Would be more secure to carry one of those portable card machine, also quicker in the current climate where more people carry cards.

 

[yorkie]

The usual way of managing quick transactions these days is Contactless. Is even that beyond the imagination of Merseyrail?

Merseyrail are against modern ticketing; there are other threads on that subject.

Also someone found a thread regarding potential overcharging by Merseyrail from 5 years ago:

Merseyrail overcharging Aintree racegoers?

Saw an interesting post on Twitter this morning: [Link to original tweet] @Merseytravel what a disgrace moorfields station separate office £5 return Aintree in normal office £4 appalling scam!!!!! It appears that people going to Aintree are being directed to a separate ticket queue where they...

www.railforums.co.uk

No, there are queue busters in place at many stations.

Are ticket offices also open at all stations, including Aintree?

I didn't say it's okay,

Glad to hear you aren't supporting Merseyrail's position.

but posters on here appear to have invented a scenario where a customer goes to a ticket office, asks for a usual ticket and is refused sale and told £6 or nothing.

Who invented it? It was reported in the RMT press release; by all means state the RMT are wrong but please don't accuse forum members of inventing this.

Furthermore, Merseyrail recieved numerous tweets complaining of apparent overcharging, and at no point did Merseyrail give a straight answer.

That has not happened and the RMT have not claimed otherwise.

From the opening post, the RMT press release said:

"Standard return tickets from Liverpool Central & Moorfields have been withdrawn for festival goers.

Originally it was £4.45 for a return and has now increased to £6.00 for a special event ticket, a 35% increase. "

@Tazi Hupefi has explained it well.

Tazi earlier posts are contrary to what you are saying; I assume you mean Tazi's later post?

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
Sounds familiar; I recall the LTS franchise pre-printed Travelcards, in order to generate more revenue. I appreciate it's not exactly the same, but there are certain similarities!

The main difference was LTS did so to divert money from other operators to their own pockets, whereas Merseyrail are diverting money from customers to themselves.

That really was a different thing - it was LTS (then as a shadow franchise) committing fraud by illegitimately gaming the Travelcard revenue settlement agreement to their advantage.

 

[Mainline421]

Who invented it? It was reported in the RMT press release; by all means state the RMT are wrong but please don't accuse forum members of inventing this.

The use of the word "withdrawn" is arguably misleading, but this is presumably referring to Aintree ticket office being out of action, nothing more. The rest is from forum members.

 

[yorkie]

That really was a different thing - it was LTS (then as a shadow franchise) committing fraud by illegitimately gaming the Travelcard revenue settlement agreement to their advantage.

Yes, I did say it was a different thing, but there are similarities, as I said above.

The use of the word "withdrawn" is arguably misleading, but this is presumably referring to Aintree ticket office being out of action, nothing more.

OK, so to be clear, what you are saying is that this is happening, but only at Aintree?

Arguably this shouldn't be happening; Merseyrail should be clear about what is happening, and the extent of it, and the RMT should also be clear. If all parties (or even if just one of them!) had been clear in publicising this, we wouldn't have this confusion; do you agree?

The rest is from forum members.

Which post(s) are you referring to, exactly?

Is it really the case that forum members were "inventing" something, when by your own admission, the article was "misleading"?

 

[Mainline421]

OK, so to be clear, what you are saying is that this is happening, but only at Aintree?

No, additional sales staff are selling pre-printed tickets across the Merseyrail network due to large queues at their normal sales points (which continue to offer the full range of tickets as they would on any other day). I don't know why you seem to be replying with so many questions, as I said I don't agree with the practice, it's just not being portrayed accurately here.

 

[yorkie]

No, additional sales staff are selling pre-printed tickets across the Merseyrail network due to large queues at their normal sales points (which continue to offer the full range of tickets as they would on any other day).

And the full range of normal tickets is available at all those stations? Does this include Aintree?

I don't know why you why you seem to be replying with so many questions

I am asking questions because there are discrepancies, and I am trying to get to the bottom of it.

as I said I don't agree with the practice, it's just not being portrayed accurately here.

It's nothing to do with "here"; the original article, which was merely quoted here, is by your own admission "misleading".

Furthermore, passengers asked Merseyrail for an explanation; Merseyrail had every opportunity to clarify, but the matter was not clarified or explained by the company, so I don't see how there can be any suggestion that any forum member has done anything wrong.

If there is a particular post you can point to, I am certainly happy to take a look into it...

 

[TUC]

Merseyrail are against modern ticketing; there are other threads on that subject.

i wasn't meaning e-tickets. I was meaning that they were only taking cash rather than allowing contactless when paying for the paper £6 ticket.

 

[Wolfie]

i wasn't meaning e-tickets. I was meaning that they were only taking cash rather than allowing contactless when paying for the paper £6 ticket.

I hope that they were issuing receipts... Otherwise a call to HMRC about possible tax evasion might be in order....

 

[yorkie]

i wasn't meaning e-tickets. I was meaning that they were only taking cash rather than allowing contactless when paying for the paper £6 ticket.

Ah, I see. Good question.

I hope that they were issuing receipts... .

Another good question.

Sounds like a visit to the area next year, to see exactly what is going on, may be in order.

Unfortunately there is a lack of clear information about the extent of what Merseyrail are doing, and the company is being very secretive. Maybe it is above board, but if so, why are they not being open about it?

I would like the matter to be investigated, but none of the bodies that should be looking into this (ORR, Ombudsman, Transport Focus) seem remotely interested in doing anything to deal with any instances of alleged overcharging. They are all utterly useless.

 

[island]

The usual way of managing quick transactions these days is Contactless. Is even that beyond the imagination of Merseyrail?

This has nothing to do with "imagination" and everything to do with the fact that they do not have hundreds of portable card machines sitting around doing nothing.

I hope that they were issuing receipts... Otherwise a call to HMRC about possible tax evasion might be in order....

What tax would that be? There's no VAT on train tickets, and Merseytravel is exempt from corporation tax (except on the Beatles Story which apparently they run).

 

[yorkie]

This has nothing to do with "imagination" and everything to do with the fact that they do not have hundreds of portable card machines sitting around doing nothing.

But if a passenger has no cash, they are still entitled to travel; it's unclear if all locations where this took place did allow regular tickets to be purchased (and/or cards to be used) or not.

If just one location didn't allow people to travel without paying the higher fare and/or in cash, that would be a breach by Merseyrail.

What tax would that be? There's no VAT on train tickets, and Merseytravel is exempt from corporation tax (except on the Beatles Story which apparently they run).

Regardless of the VAT position, they should be issuing receipts, if requested. Does anyone know if they were or not?

Unfortunately the details are very sketchy, and we can't rely on either the accusers (the RMT) or the accused (Merseyrail) to provide a clear, comprehensive and accurate description of exactly what went on; neither party seems to want to do this.

 

[modernrail]

Judging from their social media responses they're not up for a fight with people who are going to insist on being sold the correct ticket and will kick up a fuss otherwise. They only want to rip off the unwary or those who prefer to join the faster-moving queue for pre-printed tickets despite the difference in price.

Maybe they took some lessons from Gatwick and Heathrow.

But if a passenger has no cash, they are still entitled to travel; it's unclear if all locations where this took place did allow regular tickets to be purchased (and/or cards to be used) or not.

If just one location didn't allow people to travel without paying the higher fare and/or in cash, that would be a breach by Merseyrail.

Regardless of the VAT position, they should be issuing receipts, if requested. Does anyone know if they were or not?

Unfortunately the details are very sketchy, and we can't rely on either the accusers (the RMT) or the accused (Merseyrail) to provide a clear, comprehensive and accurate description of exactly what went on; neither party seems to want to do this.

I think I am in the minority here, but I applaud Merseyrail for stepping the operation up for the Grand National. If it ran this year like the 2 times I have been I can’t think of another operator around the country that upsizes the operation so significantly for a major event.

The fact they have deployed the Revenue Protection Officers to do something useful, like generate revenue by selling tickets, rather than stare at a massive queue at a ticket office whilst stopping people getting to the platform is also to be applauded. I bet there was a fair amount of good natured banter between passengers and staff as well. Compare that with post-Twickenham which is tedious in the extreme.

I am surprised they went for cash rather than contactless and maybe next year they can get a contactless provider to sponsor the uplift in card readers required. Good that they were pragmatic and did allow cash.

Also good that they offered a special fare that removed the peak pricing for those who wanted to set off in good time - which will be many of those attending Aintree.

For those closer to the course it does appear a bit unfair but it sounds like the normal fares were available if you could get to/be bothered to wait for the usual selling facilities. We are talking £6 not £10 or £20 etc, so nobody was getting massively ripped off in real terms.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Ormskirk was full of racegoers yesterday evening. Merseyrail was operating 6-car class 507 stock because it is more reliable than the 777 (according to the guard on the 2207 departure). In fact 507001 newly decked out in BR blue/grey livery was there. Several of the ladies enjoying the delights of Ormskirk were wearing black flip-flops issued to them by Merseyrail free of charge (or possibly as a benefit from buying the £6 event ticket, which of course was still valid for their return to Liverpool).

 

[redreni]

I am asking questions because there are discrepancies, and I am trying to get to the bottom of it.

Yes, I'm starting to get confused about what exactly has happened.

If the full range of tickets is available everywhere then I would have expected the company to rebut RMT's assertion that it wasn't.

If it's correct that the ticket office at Aintree was closed and the "queuebusters" selling preprinted £6 tickets were the only option, then that would make RMT's statement that other, cheaper tickets had been "withdrawn" correct, wouldn't it (albeit misleading as it implies this was happening across the Merseyrail network)? Presumably some people arrive at the track by taxi, take the train to Liverpool city centre or Ormskirk and then get a taxi home later - those people don't want or need a day ticket.

I understand it's incredibly busy at Aintree, but I can't see why the stands that only sell the preprinted tickets couldn't be augmented by RPIs who could sell any ticket. The facility should at least be there for those who ask.

 

[yorkie]

I think I am in the minority here, but I applaud Merseyrail for stepping the operation up for the Grand National...

That's a whole different topic. Stepping up an operation and having appropriate ticketing arrangements are not mutually exclusive. This thread is about the ticketing specifically.

The fact they have deployed the Revenue Protection Officers to do something useful, like generate revenue by selling tickets, rather than stare at a massive queue at a ticket office whilst stopping people getting to the platform is also to be applauded. I bet there was a fair amount of good natured banter between passengers and staff as well. Compare that with post-Twickenham which is tedious in the extreme.

None of that is part of the issue.

I am surprised they went for cash rather than contactless and maybe next year they can get a contactless provider to sponsor the uplift in card readers required. Good that they were pragmatic and did allow cash.

Also good that they offered a special fare that removed the peak pricing for those who wanted to set off in good time - which will be many of those attending Aintree.

There is no issue with the introduction of a special fare.

For those closer to the course it does appear a bit unfair but it sounds like the normal fares were available if you could get to/be bothered to wait for the usual selling facilities.

Was this definitely the case at all stations, including Aintree?

We are talking £6 not £10 or £20 etc, so nobody was getting massively ripped off in real terms.

Try telling that to train companies; prosecutions over 10p differences are not unknown, and indeed there have been threats to prosecute over a zero-fare difference or even where the customer has paid more than the cost of a valid fare.

 

[modernrail]

That's a whole different topic. Stepping up an operation and having appropriate ticketing arrangements are not mutually exclusive. This thread is about the ticketing specifically.

None of that is part of the issue.

There is no issue with the introduction of a special fare.

Was this definitely the case at all stations, including Aintree?

Try telling that to train companies; prosecutions over 10p differences are not unknown, and indeed there have been threats to prosecute over a zero-fare difference or even where the customer has paid more than the cost of a valid fare.

Oh I definitely agree the over-zealous nature of ticket enforcement is ridiculous - especially from an industry that does not deliver a good enough product in terms of on time trains with the correct number of carriages.

The one ticket that does seem to be respected and provides flexibility to generally avoid arguments and traps is the off peak all routes. A shame LNER is working to get rid of them.

 

[island]

But if a passenger has no cash, they are still entitled to travel; it's unclear if all locations where this took place did allow regular tickets to be purchased (and/or cards to be used) or not.

If just one location didn't allow people to travel without paying the higher fare and/or in cash, that would be a breach by Merseyrail.

I agree. So far there is no reliable evidence to suggest that anyone has been prevented from paying by any of the usual accepted methods or has been unable to purchase the exact ticket they wanted. Having been to such an Aintree event before – though not this specific one – it was my experience that a number of normal ticket sale points were in operation there.

Regardless of the VAT position, they should be issuing receipts, if requested. Does anyone know if they were or not?

I agree, but emphasis on "should". It's not a legal requirement to issue receipts in England/Wales. (Anyone needing proof of payment, such as for expense purposes, could use the ticket; as an all day ticket it would not be retained in ticket gates.) Issuing receipts is good business practice.h

Unfortunately the details are very sketchy, and we can't rely on either the accusers (the RMT) or the accused (Merseyrail) to provide a clear, comprehensive and accurate description of exactly what went on; neither party seems to want to do this.

I also agree with that.

 

[sprunt]

Having heard back, Merseyrail did this at their busiest stations across their network. As explained earlier, they preprint thousands of these £6 ranger tickets and distribute them across their revenue protection teams and certain popular stations to get the queues down to a manageable level - cash only (hence the rounding to £6 instead of £5.95).

If they weren't profiteering, they should have rounded them even further to £5, much closer to the correct price and would have made payments even more convenient.

Were RMT complaining a few years ago when they carefully ensured a strike action day was the day of the Grand National?

Probably not, they were more likely delighted by the sensible approach taken by the union leadership of timing the action for maximum attention.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably not, they were more likely delighted by the sensible approach taken by the union leadership of timing the action for maximum attention.

Did you really mean to say "maximum inconvenience" at the end of your posting above?

 

[sansyy]

If they weren't profiteering, they should have rounded them even further to £5, much closer to the correct price and would have made payments even more convenient.



Probably not, they were more likely delighted by the sensible approach taken by the union leadership of timing the action for maximum attention.

I really dont think 5p difference is a big enough deal for Merseyrail to be called profiteering its only 5 pence. A 95p loss would be a lot bigger than a 5p gain.

 

[gray1404]

I saw no mention on the Merseyrail website of this special £6 fare.

I caught the train into Liverpool with friend early Thursday morning with a friend and he paid £6.40 for his ticket (I used my pass). Surely he should have been offered the £6 fare.

The point I am making is Merseyrail should be clear and transparent about what is available.

Likewise stating at which stations there would be an express qué selling only the £6 ticket but that all other fares would be available from the ticket office.

But they did nothing of the kind.

 

[Krokodil]

Surely this is not right. How can regular off peak return fares be "suspended" for an event and the fare increased.

BR used to do that on the Cardiff Valley Lines on Saturdays in the run-up to Christmas and on match days. This was justified on the basis that extra DMUs had to be brought in from Tyseley.

The issue you have here, is unique, is that Merseytravel, essentially replaces the DfT when it comes to Merseyrail. They don't seem to have the same concerns or conditions around this that would reign Merseyrail in, and indeed, I understand Merseytravel actually supports this practice.

What makes you think that the DfT would object if it were one of their TOCs? They'd probably trumpet it as "simpler fares".

Though, of course, said RPIs are likely to be RMT members...

More likely to be TSSA.

 

[sprunt]

Did you really mean to say "maximum inconvenience" at the end of your posting above?

Of course. Why would a union not want their industrial action to cause the most inconvenience? There would be no point striking on a day when trains aren't running.

BR used to do that on the Cardiff Valley Lines on Saturdays in the run-up to Christmas and on match days. This was justified on the basis that extra DMUs had to be brought in from Tyseley.

Not really justified - shouldn't that be covered by the fare income from all the extra passengers?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In answer to the other comments made by this esteemed thread contributor.......So it is in order for the RMT to have deliberately caused inconvenience to prospective travelling rail passengers on the day of a major nationally noted day of the Grand National a few years ago, whilst feeling free to pontificate on other bodies who have made an increase in passenger fare to the very same event? Perhaps they might have hoped that people have short memories.