RMT sets out talks ‘road map’ as rail services hit by fresh strike

[LowLevel]

The French seem to take striking as a national sport. According to The Times, as of June 2023 air traffic controllers had been on strike for a total of 60 days this year. That would have a much bigger impact than any RMT strike.

A different culture. If you so much as address service staff in anything other than a polite manner anywhere you are likely to receive a very robust response.

If the leading classes over there press on with things seen to be unpopular amongst the general public, the response is to go on strike and set fire to things until they pack it in. See 8 years ago when Air France was proposing redundancies and striking works physically assaulted their executive management team. For all the talk of union thugs here can anyone see that happening in the UK?

In the UK when a multi millionaire proposes something unpopular for the "greater good", with a negligible impact on themselves, and some people withdraw their labour to protest, instead you have Big Daz the painter and decorator with some nice stuff, all on finance saying "yeah! I don't go on strike. Sort em out".

It's a delightfully British thing.

 

[LAX54]

They probably weren't when the focus was on retaining current working practices and demands for inflation busting pay rises. The general public didn't support them on those issues.

The ticket office dispute however is another matter, I think the GP are with them on that one.

Ticket Offices and DOO have always been on the agenda, and was spoken about, but the public didnt really cotton on to exactly what it meant until fairly recently. now that could be because the Unions did not explain it well ? Pay, the current offer I am sure would be accepted, but as the RDG have said it is on the proviso we can go ahead with all their plans, and you will not be able to strike over the issue, is why we are where we are now.
S&T maintaianance seems almost non existant in PSBs and Signalboxes now, they dont have the time or manpower, recall in the 90s /00s most nights in the PSB, the S&T would be cleaning the ponel, cleaning the contacts behind the buttons / switches, checking route lights work etc, cant recall the last time I saw that done (although retired now)

 

[railfan99]

I notice that a major station like York has taken to closing its ticket and information office of a Sunday evening,

Goodness: in 2021-22, York had paid patronage of four million boardings and similar in alighting passengers, a median of c.11,000 per day for each.

That's significant patronage anywhere worldwide given York is away from the capital and IIRC lacks the population of your top five cities.

But don't worry, commencing a Eurailpass in late September 2022, London Euston's ticket office was closed until 0930 BST on a Saturday morning due to alleged "lack of staff", so I had to ask the very pleasant man at the race if I could board a train due to leave way before that and have my paper pass validated at Manchester Piccadilly. He understood immediately: seemed he'd had previous requests. A second member of staff went and found the lady conductor/guard who agreed. Terrific service.

 

[jayah]

Not really - most people won't be eligible for compensation as disruption is advertised prior to 10pm the night before travel so it's effectively either get a full refund and don't travel or accept the revised timetable without compensation (unless that too is delayed).

The savings made from not paying staff, track access charges, fuel, marginal savings on wear and tear/maintenance on stock etc make strikes financially neutral/positive for the DfT, even if they lose the ticket revenue. A lot of routes are commercially loss making regardless of strikes anyway.

If it did become an issue, DfT/RDG would just terminate the delay repay scheme and default back to the extremely less generous Conditions of Travel minimums There's no right to delay repay in law.

The vast and overwhelming costs of the railway are fixed and they arise whether trains run or not. The strikes are undoubtedly a large negative. The railways has too little revenue to offset a colossal asset base as it is.

The difference is tax. DfT, civil servants, politicians don't lose their shirts like they would in a real business. In the same way the striking staff would also lose their jobs.

Neither side has enough incentive to end the strikes and there is a good reason why FOCs and OAs are not on strike.

 

[43096]

I don't think most people really care about ticket offices tbh. They'll just say "but I always use the machines". Not to say they aren't valuable but theirs needs to be more publicity, aimed at those who don't normally use them, to explain why they are valuable

If people are predominantly using the machines/apps/websites to buy their tickets, then ticket offices are not valuable. The trend is clear in terms of ticket purchasing.

 

[footprints]

The below Evening Standard story has just appeared in my Microsoft Edge news feed, not sure what to make of it myself, could it be the start of the end of the strikes or is it just PR?

Link to story

Isn't this essentially what the RDG offered in April and the RMT rejected? That included a 5% pay rise for 2022/23, no compulsory redundancies, and an end to the current dispute with the chance to re-ballot after three months of negotiations on changes like ticket office closures etc.

Having rejected that deal without putting it to their members, maybe it's finally dawned on the RMT that all they've achieved is to exclude themselves from negotiations, deny their members a pay rise, and cost their members more money in pointless strikes that most people are now well versed in working around.

 

[Russel]

Isn't this essentially what the RDG offered in April and the RMT rejected? That included a 5% pay rise for 2022/23, no compulsory redundancies, and an end to the current dispute with the chance to re-ballot after three months of negotiations on changes like ticket office closures etc.

Having rejected that deal without putting it to their members, maybe it's finally dawned on the RMT that all they've achieved is to exclude themselves from negotiations, deny their members a pay rise, and cost their members more money in pointless strikes that most people are now well versed in working around.

Hopefully yes, the strikes aren't exactly grinding the country to a halt, they are nothing more than background noise to most now..

 

[baz962]

Hopefully yes, the strikes aren't exactly grinding the country to a halt, they are nothing more than background noise to most now..

And yet here you are. Commenting for one and hoping there is a resolution . They aren't intended to bring the country to a halt , but it's cost the economy a lot of money.

 

[Bartsimho]

And yet here you are. Commenting for one and hoping there is a resolution . They aren't intended to bring the country to a halt , but it's cost the economy a lot of money.

So someone interested in the railways relaying that many of the general public don't care isn't much of a problem?
The calculation is how much is it costing the treasury from reduced economic activity compared to how much it is saving them from not giving a pay deal and reduced track and rolling stock wear. I'd say they're about equal.

 

[baz962]

So someone interested in the railways relaying that many of the general public don't care isn't much of a problem?
The calculation is how much is it costing the treasury from reduced economic activity compared to how much it is saving them from not giving a pay deal and reduced track and rolling stock wear. I'd say they're about equal.

Seeing as the government admitted it had cost more than to settle and that was a long time ago I wouldn't bet on that. And anyway it's the RMT and quite a good few services have ran but with contingency staff. Unless they settle with ASLEF , action will be ongoing and practically nothing runs when ASLEF strike.

 

[Snow1964]

RMT press release https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-writes-to-rail-delivery-group-urging-a-resolution


It does sound reasonable and I hope the RDG engage with it.

And yes, I think Lynch/the RMT are beginning to understand that the public are accepting of a part-time railway which doesn't work some Saturdays, and are just getting on with life anyway.

It reads as a fairly long list of demands by the RMT

But also reads like we realise the strikes are failing to achieve any movement in last years pay talks, so our current tactic needs to change, otherwise might still be in same place into 2024 and that pay rise is being held up.

Not totally clear to me what the significance of 1st of December is (compared to say 1st Nov, or 1st Jan). Perhaps someone can explain this choice of date.

 

[nw1]

Perhaps it also occurs in nations like France, but in my nation I cannot recall an industrial dispute (with strikes) dragging on for 14 months plus. It is unbelievable to me that a year on from my previous visit, the parties still haven't compromised.

That doesn't mean Nirvana where I am, but usually public and media pressure on either employees/unions/government sees unions/employees desist, or company(ies) concerned or government make an offer that's accepted.

Given almost everyone suggests the Conservative Party is headed for defeat in 2025 (though nothing is impossible in politics), surely time for both sides to compromise?

Definitely but this government comes across as one who does not want to back down, even if the RMT are making noises that they wish to compromise.

The election will almost certainly be in 2024, and not 2025. There is absolutely no way an election will be held in mid-winter with a campaigning period over Christmas. The date is almost certain to be one of October, June or May 2024 - perhaps October being the most likely but many of us are hoping it will be May.

 

[Dan G]

It reads as a fairly long list of demands by the RMT

But also reads like we realise the strikes are failing to achieve any movement in last years pay talks, so our current tactic needs to change, otherwise might still be in same place into 2024 and that pay rise is being held up.

Not totally clear to me what the significance of 1st of December is (compared to say 1st Nov, or 1st Jan). Perhaps someone can explain this choice of date.

I think the only demand is "no compulsory redundancies", which isn't unreasonable and doubt RDG would have a problem with it.

I can only think 1 December is after the result of the ticket office closure consultation or it's just arbitrary. Lynch's letter reads like a desire for a "reset" in the negotiations to me.

Isn't this essentially what the RDG offered in April and the RMT rejected? That included a 5% pay rise for 2022/23, no compulsory redundancies, and an end to the current dispute with the chance to re-ballot after three months of negotiations on changes like ticket office closures etc.

Having rejected that deal without putting it to their members, maybe it's finally dawned on the RMT that all they've achieved is to exclude themselves from negotiations, deny their members a pay rise, and cost their members more money in pointless strikes that most people are now well versed in working around.

It's a different to the RDG's offer (from February!)

The RMT offer

The Rail Delivery Group was set up in 2011 to provide leadership to Britain's rail industry, bringing together the owners of Britain's passenger train operators

www.raildeliverygroup.com

 

[northwichcat]

So the RMT are saying we are happy with a 1 year pay deal for the time being and a resolution to this years pay won’t be decided until next year?

Not sure what staff will think of this but I guess it gives some open ground to take stock and discuss the reform needed.

I presume they'll expect a pay deal to be backdated to the start of the year. Presumably that could pause strike action and lead to their members being better off overall come the end of the financial year.

 

[SJN]

I presume they'll expect a pay deal to be backdated to the start of the year. Presumably that could pause strike action and lead to their members being better off overall come the end of the financial year.

Any pay deal will be backdated to 2022 as stated in the article.

 

[northwichcat]

Any pay deal will be backdated to 2022 as stated in the article.

I was referring to the bit that says "A commitment that pay negotiations for the year 2023–2024 will commence from 1st December 2023." and I presume wink's was too given he mentioned 'this year's pay deal' and we're in the 2023/24 financial year.

 

[SJN]

I was referring to the bit that says "A commitment that pay negotiations for the year 2023–2024 will commence from 1st December 2023." and I presume wink's was too given he mentioned 'this year's pay deal' and we're in the 2023/24 financial year.

Normally pay deals will start from an anniversary date. Each company has their own month when the pay talks are due, so normally any 2023-2024 pay would be backdated to whichever month the pay anniversary falls in.

 

[northwichcat]

Normally pay deals will start from an anniversary date. Each company has their own month when the pay talks are due, so normally any 2023-2024 pay would be backdated to whichever month the pay anniversary falls in.

Yeah but the point is the RMT have now said they are happy to wait until December 2023 to talk about the pay deal for the current year, if their other demands are met. So that presumably means if any issues for 22/23 are resolved, any risk of industrial action on the 23/24 pay deal wil be postponed to next year (by the time they need to have talks and then ballot for a stike if the talks aren't successful). As they're talking about different operators with different contracts, the effective from date might be different for different members.

Saying that I think the 'guarantee of employment' will be the sticking point. It's one thing asking for no redundancies during the course of the current franchises but if they want longer term then the current franchises won't be able to offer that. Then the RMT members can't directly strike against the government or against a future unknown employer. I recall the Seco/Abellio Northern franchise getting a court order blocking strike action when it related to what had been written in the ITT for a future Northern franchise.

 

[Smidster]

Noting that naturally there's an ongoing decline in usage of ticket offices, the population of UK is (by my nation's standards) huge in a small area, and rail patronage is significant on many main and more than a few secondary main or even branch lines.

While having a ticket office open say 14 hours daily from 0600 to 2000 hrs may cost at least GBP130,000 pa at a guess (at least two shifts per day, coverage for days off and holidays/sick days, overtime and electricity plus sundry expenses), I struggle to understand why a developed nation that has already rationalised these cannot seemingly fund continued operation.

It isn't satisfactory to supposedly redeploy staff to ticket barriers as one assumes they won't have access to all the tools available in a booking office.



Perhaps it also occurs in nations like France, but in my nation I cannot recall an industrial dispute (with strikes) dragging on for 14 months plus. It is unbelievable to me that a year on from my previous visit, the parties still haven't compromised.

That doesn't mean Nirvana where I am, but usually public and media pressure on either employees/unions/government sees unions/employees desist, or company(ies) concerned or government make an offer that's accepted.

Given almost everyone suggests the Conservative Party is headed for defeat in 2025 (though nothing is impossible in politics), surely time for both sides to compromise?

It seems quite simple to me.

There is no need for compromise because neither side is hurting which means they have little reason to compromise.

RMT / ASLEF staff are doing fine for themselves and most can pretty easily replace the income they are losing. Government doesn't really care as it is small beer and these days the impact on business is tiny.

Only people suffering, and we are really suffering, is the normal passenger who relies on the service.

For it to change one side needs reason to deal and that isn't happening anytime soon. I just hope that Union folk start to realise just how futile this all is.

 

[baz962]

It seems quite simple to me.

There is no need for compromise because neither side is hurting which means they have little reason to compromise.

RMT / ASLEF staff are doing fine for themselves and most can pretty easily replace the income they are losing. Government doesn't really care as it is small beer and these days the impact on business is tiny.

Only people suffering, and we are really suffering, is the normal passenger who relies on the service.

For it to change one side needs reason to deal and that isn't happening anytime soon. I just hope that Union folk start to realise just how futile this all is.

Because it's quite simple. The payrise for most of us isn't a problem. It's the total ripping up and change of our terms and condition , which most normal people wouldn't accept. ASLEF in my case.

 

[Stephen42]

Yeah but the point is the RMT have now said they are happy to wait until December 2023 to talk about the pay deal for the current year, if their other demands are met. So that presumably means if any issues for 22/23 are resolved, any risk of industrial action on the 23/24 pay deal wil be postponed to next year (by the time they need to have talks and then ballot for a stike if the talks aren't successful). As they're talking about different operators with different contracts, the effective from date might be different for different members.

Saying that I think the 'guarantee of employment' will be the sticking point. It's one thing asking for no redundancies during the course of the current franchises but if they want longer term then the current franchises won't be able to offer that. Then the RMT members can't directly strike against the government or against a future unknown employer. I recall the Seco/Abellio Northern franchise getting a court order blocking strike action when it related to what had been written in the ITT for a future Northern franchise.

The previous RDG offer had no compulsory redundancies until December 2024. An indefinite date isn't going to be agreeable, but it's allowable to be beyond the date of a contract if the government agrees the commitment can be made with the obligation passing to whoever agrees to take on the operator.

The real sticking point is that RDG has very little incentive to accept the conditions in the current form. For a 3 month period of no industrial action, they'd be giving a 5% payrise and backdated pay without any commitment to the workplace reforms or the scale of this year's pay rise. Given the length industrial action has been going on 3 months without action doesn't sound that valuable to RDG. RDG accepting isn't far off paying the deposit and then trying to negotiate the price of the holiday.

 

[paul1609]

Re the 'keep ticket offices open' protest planned for 31 August 2023 opposite Downing Street, do there tend to be various protests (on non-railway matters) most days there or is this relatively unusual?

Would the railway unionists/general public attendees be likely to be competing for space (and for having their demonstration in/on mainstream and social media) with other complainants?

I used to walk past there daily from Charing Cross to Lambeth Bridge, theres generally a protest there everyday, often about issues that nobody in the general public have ever heard of.

 

[syorksdeano]

I think the RMT have been clever here.

In one hand they have said that noone from the Government has contacted them since January (or was it March), but in any event people are now going to expect a reply.

No reply and people are going to ask why

 

[northwichcat]

The previous RDG offer had no compulsory redundancies until December 2024. An indefinite date isn't going to be agreeable, but it's allowable to be beyond the date of a contract if the government agrees the commitment can be made with the obligation passing to whoever agrees to take on the operator.

General election next year and the government are probably going to want to start tendering processes before that. I doubt they'll agree to anything beyond then.

 

[Bantamzen]

It seems quite simple to me.

There is no need for compromise because neither side is hurting which means they have little reason to compromise.

RMT / ASLEF staff are doing fine for themselves and most can pretty easily replace the income they are losing. Government doesn't really care as it is small beer and these days the impact on business is tiny.

Only people suffering, and we are really suffering, is the normal passenger who relies on the service.

For it to change one side needs reason to deal and that isn't happening anytime soon. I just hope that Union folk start to realise just how futile this all is.

This is quite a depressing thought. Because even if the effects on those directly concerned isn't too great, the fallout from it is becoming so. As an example I've noticed that on strike Saturdays when Bradford City are playing at home, the numbers in many pubs before and after games is down quite a bit. This Saturday was particularly bad even though the crowd wasn't down a whole lot (just under 17K as opposed to 17-18K). However it seemed local bus services were falling apart on Saturday evening, with many running very late or being cancelled which suggests a lot more fans decided to abandon public transport altogether and just drive & park as close as they could to the ground.

So rather than any dramatic effect on the wider economy, it feels very much that the longer this dispute runs the more it just slowly grinds away at it. Quite honestly as someone who doesn't drive and doesn't have a driving licence, I am starting to wonder if that decision needs to be reversed as public transport in general feels like it is being run down.

 

[Falcon1200]

The payrise for most of us isn't a problem. It's the total ripping up and change of our terms and condition , which most normal people wouldn't accept. ASLEF in my case.

Would the best policy for the Unions then be to state publicly that they accept the pay rise but cannot expect their members to agree to the changes to T&Cs, which would seriously affect physical and mental health, even more than railway work does already? I did not strike during my railway career but had the changes to T&Cs been proposed during my time, that would have changed!

 

[Robcuk]

Would the best policy for the Unions then be to state publicly that they accept the pay rise but cannot expect their members to agree to the changes to T&Cs, which would seriously affect physical and mental health, even more than railway work does already? I did not strike during my railway career but had the changes to T&Cs been proposed during my time, that would have changed!

That's the thing the attack on T and C's are never going to be voted on in a positive manner. So whats been offered - 8% over two years with nothing for 2020, 21, 22 so effectively 8% over 5 years. Just one of the attacks on T&C's reduces that by a few %. Currently if I'm rostered in on a public holiday I'll get a lieu day but they want to remove that - Who would vote in favour of that change?

I'd imagine most workers would happily vote in favour to a similar deal to what went through in Scotland

 

[ainsworth74]

No reply and people are going to ask why

Are they? I only know about what the RMT have suggested as a way forward because of the Forum! The strikes still get some coverage (there was an article on BBC News this weekend) but it seems to me that it has mostly fallen away into background noise.

 

[185]

The French seem to take striking as a national sport. According to The Times, as of June 2023 air traffic controllers had been on strike for a total of 60 days this year.

At least they have an air traffic control system. We've just got drive on the left, trusty ol' TCAS and hope for the best at the moment

 

[SargeNpton]

A different culture. If you so much as address service staff in anything other than a polite manner anywhere you are likely to receive a very robust response.

If the leading classes over there press on with things seen to be unpopular amongst the general public, the response is to go on strike and set fire to things until they pack it in. See 8 years ago when Air France was proposing redundancies and striking works physically assaulted their executive management team. For all the talk of union thugs here can anyone see that happening in the UK?

In the UK when a multi millionaire proposes something unpopular for the "greater good", with a negligible impact on themselves, and some people withdraw their labour to protest, instead you have Big Daz the painter and decorator with some nice stuff, all on finance saying "yeah! I don't go on strike. Sort em out".

It's a delightfully British thing.

You perhaps don't remember the intimidation and violence resulting from mass picketing and secondary picketing during the 1960s-1980s. Events during the 1984-85 miner's strike resuled in three deaths.