Role of on board staff on Merseyrail trains and associated issues (e.g. ticket selling/checking)

[L401CJF]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-class-777.153458/

Speaking to a friend at ME this morning and an offer relating to guards has been made. I assume it still needs voting through, but this is how it stands in the "final offer"

The role of guard is to be replaced with "Train manager". The role will remain safety critical in accordance with the rule book in regards to laying protection and so on. Dispatch is proposed to be driver release, TM steps out and observes boarding and alighting. Once complete TM checks for clear signal and signals driver to close the doors. Driver closes doors and observes departure via in-cab monitors.

Revenue equipment to be issued to TMs and they must remain in the saloon at all times conducting full ticket checks - I am unsure if this means they will be issuing tickets or just scanning.

All fixed term guard roles to be offered permanent positions as TM, no changes to terms and conditions, and guaranteed a role until the end of concession in 2028.

Again, this is what I was told (and did see it in writing) but may have missed bits out, and it still has to be put to vote.

 

[RMTGuard]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members...uction-of-doo--merseyrail040522/?preview=true

Several meetings have taken place with the company and the union over our ongoing battle in defending the safety critical role of the Guard.

A full and final offer on the Job Description and Door Procedure has now been negotiated and can be found here:

The National Executive Committee has considered this matter and acknowledged the heroic struggle you and your colleagues have undergone to defend the safety critical role of the guard and oppose the introduction of Driver Only Operation. The offer that has been negotiated has reached an agreed method of PTI duties and dispatch procedures that protects the future of the safety critical operational role. The red lines set out by the NEC and the Union have now been successfully negotiated and that the proposals are in line with the revised 2021 Traincrew charter policy....

 

[Bertie the bus]

That agreement doesn’t explain how it is all going to be paid for. A pay freeze for 2 years for approx 100 employees and a £4K pay cut for new starters isn’t going to fill a £10 million per annum financial hole.

 

[507 001]

Sounds distinctly like 10 bells, which is absolutely ludicrous. Just fit the damn things with panels and be done with it!

 

[Skie]

That agreement doesn’t explain how it is all going to be paid for. A pay freeze for 2 years for approx 100 employees and a £4K pay cut for new starters isn’t going to fill a £10 million per annum financial hole.

All guards (TMs) will resume revenue duties and can be deployed in pairs to issue penalty fares. That should help reduce ticketless travel, improve security and might enable them to end the Carlisle contract.

Someone will have done the math and figured it does enough that any remainder can be justifiably provided by Merseytravel

 

[wobman]

Speaking to a friend at ME this morning and an offer relating to guards has been made. I assume it still needs voting through, but this is how it stands in the "final offer"

The role of guard is to be replaced with "Train manager". The role will remain safety critical in accordance with the rule book in regards to laying protection and so on. Dispatch is proposed to be driver release, TM steps out and observes boarding and alighting. Once complete TM checks for clear signal and signals driver to close the doors. Driver closes doors and observes departure via in-cab monitors.

Revenue equipment to be issued to TMs and they must remain in the saloon at all times conducting full ticket checks - I am unsure if this means they will be issuing tickets or just scanning.

All fixed term guard roles to be offered permanent positions as TM, no changes to terms and conditions, and guaranteed a role until the end of concession in 2028.

Again, this is what I was told (and did see it in writing) but may have missed bits out, and it still has to be put to vote.

What happens in 2028 at the end of the concession??
Also what if the drivers dint agree to the changes in the method of working regarding door ??

 

[Grumpy Git]

I'm sure doing ticket checks on train will pay for the whole new fleet. Merseyrail must lose £millions to freeriders?

 

[nedchester]

All guards (TMs) will resume revenue duties and can be deployed in pairs to issue penalty fares. That should help reduce ticketless travel, improve security and might enable them to end the Carlisle contract.

Someone will have done the math and figured it does enough that any remainder can be justifiably provided by Merseytravel

I suspect that ticket offices will be on the money saving agenda with the requirement to keep them open from start to end of service becoming less justifiable especially when mobile tickets or similar are introduced.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm sure doing ticket checks on train will pay for the whole new fleet. Merseyrail must lose £millions to freeriders?

Being a metro system most journeys are going to be to/from the city centre and those stations already have ticket barriers so good luck trying to sell a ticket to someone who is prepared to jump or force the barriers. Saying it will be made up for by reducing fare evasion is very optimistic.

 

[Skie]

I suspect that ticket offices will be on the money saving agenda with the requirement to keep them open from start to end of service becoming less justifiable especially when mobile tickets or similar are introduced.

I suspect the same. Given the trains won’t need ramps to access and there is a (slow) drive to adopt contactless, oyster style travel, ticket offices are probably a cost saving waiting to happen.

 

[L401CJF]

Being a metro system most journeys are going to be to/from the city centre and those stations already have ticket barriers so good luck trying to sell a ticket to someone who is prepared to jump or force the barriers. Saying it will be made up for by reducing fare evasion is very optimistic.

Not quite, while a lot of journeys are to/from the city theres a hell of a lot which arnt. Plenty of shorter journeys are taken from non barriered wirral stations including Birkenhead Central.

What happens in 2028 at the end of the concession??
Also what if the drivers dint agree to the changes in the method of working regarding door ??

This is what I was thinking also.

In my mind, IF its voted through by the guards and accepted by the drivers, surely it may just be pushing the dispute a few years down the line if they decide not to keep them beyond 2028..

 

[Skie]

What happens in 2028 at the end of the concession??
Also what if the drivers dint agree to the changes in the method of working regarding door ??

It’s all in the PDF in the RMT final offer.

If legally possible, the next franchise will be compelled to include safety critical TMs

If ASLEF don’t agree to the additional duties then that will further delay the rollout. But given the project was always meant to include DOO until it didn’t, the budget should include whatever is a reasonable bump to the drivers as compensation for handling the extra duties. Whether they want to do it or not is another question, but the finance side should already be settled.

 

[nedchester]

I suspect the same. Given the trains won’t need ramps to access and there is a (slow) drive to adopt contactless, oyster style travel, ticket offices are probably a cost saving waiting for happen.

To be honest ticket offices are becoming more and more obsolete (and not just on Merseyrail)

 

[railwaytrack]

I have read that PDF document on the RMT website but i do not quite understand how this will work.

In particular where it says that the Guard will step back on to the train and activate the signal to advise the driver that station duties are complete.

Does this mean there will be a button installed in the saloon that the Guard will press that will then light up in the Driver cab? Or will this be a simple bell button installed in the saloon and the Guard will give a bell code to the Driver to tell them that station duties are complete and the train can depart? So the Guard will give 1-2 on the bell to the Driver perhaps? Or is it some other method?

Or will this work a similar way to how they do it in, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and various other countries. So the train arrives in to the platform and the Driver opens the doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the Guard waves a flag or baton towards the Driver (which the Driver sees by either leaning out of the window or looking at a mirror or looking at a CCTV camera) and immediately steps back in to the train. Then the Driver closes all of the doors (including the Guard local door) and the Driver checks themselves that the doors are shut and it is safe to depart. So i am wondering if this is the way that Merseyrail are doing it.

Personally i think they should just keep the current method of operation. It has worked well for many decades so i see no reason to change it. If a Guard is guaranteed as per the agreement than i so no reason why they should change it. The only thing i can think of is to make full DOO operation easier to implement in the future.

 

[nedchester]

I have read that PDF document on the RMT website but i do not quite understand how this will work.

In particular where it says that the Guard will step back on to the train and activate the signal to advise the driver that station duties are complete.

Does this mean there will be a button installed in the saloon that the Guard will press that will then light up in the Driver cab? Or will this be a simple bell button installed in the saloon and the Guard will give a bell code to the Driver to tell them that station duties are complete and the train can depart? So the Guard will give 1-2 on the bell to the Driver perhaps? Or is it some other method?

Or will this work a similar way to how they do it in, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and various other countries. So the train arrives in to the platform and the Driver opens the doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the Guard waves a flag or baton towards the Driver (which the Driver sees by either leaning out of the window or looking at a mirror or looking at a CCTV camera) and immediately steps back in to the train. Then the Driver closes all of the doors (including the Guard local door) and the Driver checks themselves that the doors are shut and it is safe to depart. So i am wondering if this is the way that Merseyrail are doing it.

Personally i think they should just keep the current method of operation. It has worked well for many decades so i see no reason to change it. If a Guard is guaranteed as per the agreement than i so no reason why they should change it. The only thing i can think of is to make full DOO operation easier to implement in the future.

I think DOO will happen in time as it will in many other places.

It’s all in the PDF in the RMT final offer.

If legally possible, the next franchise will be compelled to include safety critical TMs

If ASLEF don’t agree to the additional duties then that will further delay the rollout. But given the project was always meant to include DOO until it didn’t, the budget should include whatever is a reasonable bump to the drivers as compensation for handling the extra duties. Whether they want to do it or not is another question, but the finance side should already be settled.

What 'additional duties'? Opening and shutting some doors? Really?

 

[Fokx]

What 'additional duties'? Opening and shutting some doors? Really?

There’s a bit more too it than that

Effectively the driver who’d normally be focusing solely on driving the train and the signal ahead has to deal with late runners, ensuring the train is completely on the platform, monitoring the CCTV screens during dispatch and departure, all whilst watching their speed, ensuring no signals have changed and also focusing on driving.

 

[Skie]

What 'additional duties'? Opening and shutting some doors? Really?

Yep. It’s of course more involved than that and adds an extra burden of responsibility onto the driver. The James Street incident will be on peoples minds when considering if it’s worth the extra risks involved.

 

[py_megapixel]

The role of guard is to be replaced with "Train manager". The role will remain safety critical in accordance with the rule book in regards to laying protection and so on. Dispatch is proposed to be driver release, TM steps out and observes boarding and alighting. Once complete TM checks for clear signal and signals driver to close the doors. Driver closes doors and observes departure via in-cab monitors.

Is that the same as what happens on Voyagers (which takes absolutely ages, for what it's worth)

 

[Pacef8]

Hypothetically if a similar incident to the one that happened at james street where to happen again then you would assume the driver would be responsible not the new tm. Would the drivers union have the same stance as the guards union did ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that the same as what happens on Voyagers (which takes absolutely ages, for what it's worth)

No, they are ten bell.

 

[the sniper]

What 'additional duties'? Opening and shutting some doors? Really?

Please, put some thought into it.

In particular where it says that the Guard will step back on to the train and activate the signal to advise the driver that station duties are complete.

Keeping to sensible discussion, is a Swiss style system on the cards, with the 'TM' using a hand held device/phone to send the message/signal to the Driver's cab? Stadler would be familiar with this sort of system of work. I believe it was also mooted in TOCs that weren't able to implement DCO.

 

[nedchester]

Please, put some thought into it.



Keeping to sensible discussion, is a Swiss style system on the cards, with the 'TM' using a hand held device/phone to send the message/signal to the Driver's cab? Stadler would be familiar with this sort of system of work. I believe it was also mooted in TOCs that weren't able to implement DCO.

It seems the new TM role is taking on extra duties but no extra remuneration?

 

[L401CJF]

It seems the new TM role is taking on extra duties but no extra remuneration?

Mods: Just read the comment about it being for class 777 discussion only but I do think the issues of their operation may be pertinent?

Seeing as this is whats stopping the 777 entering service I would agree also, I suppose the proposed method of dispatch could warrant its own thread, but I suspect it would just turn into a DOO discussion like the others have!

 

[LowLevel]

Please, put some thought into it.



Keeping to sensible discussion, is a Swiss style system on the cards, with the 'TM' using a hand held device/phone to send the message/signal to the Driver's cab? Stadler would be familiar with this sort of system of work. I believe it was also mooted in TOCs that weren't able to implement DCO.

Not got any hard evidence to back this up but I had heard the system will involve the train manager using a smartcard on a sensor to activate whatever it is (presumably a light) to tell the driver they've finished station duties.

 

[skyhigh]

It seems the new TM role is taking on extra duties but no extra remuneration?

As I understand it £31k is more than guards are currently on, so it's misleading to suggest there's no extra remuneration for the grade.

 

[507020]

Not got any hard evidence to back this up but I had heard the system will involve the train manager using a smartcard on a sensor to activate whatever it is (presumably a light) to tell the driver they've finished station duties.

The “panels” that been fitted at the passenger doors are effectively sensors controlled by a smart card, which I was told will also be used for some sort of local door operation. This is more sophisticated than an exposed button which could simply be pressed by a passenger.

 

[Skie]

The “panels” that been fitted at the passenger doors are effectively sensors controlled by a smart card, which I was told will also be used for some sort of local door operation. This is more sophisticated than an exposed button which could simply be pressed by a passenger.

Sounds like a NFC setup then. Tap a card or a device to validate that the guard is asking for the doors to be closed.

Can be integrated into a handheld for ticket/card scans too when they eventually roll out “Oyster style” travel.

 

[507020]

Sounds like a NFC setup then. Tap a card or a device to validate that the guard is asking for the doors to close.

Can be integrated into a handheld for ticket/card scans too when they eventually roll out “Oyster style” travel.

The same device being tapped multiple times may signal different things e.g. first tap with all doors closed = open local door, second tap with local door open = signal driver to open all doors, third tap with all doors open = signal driver to close doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The “panels” that been fitted at the passenger doors are effectively sensors controlled by a smart card, which I was told will also be used for some sort of local door operation. This is more sophisticated than an exposed button which could simply be pressed by a passenger.

What's wrong with a buzzer and a key as per Voyagers?

 

[6Gman]

What's wrong with a buzzer and a key as per Voyagers?

Given the frequency of stops I would assume unlocking, opening, closing, locking might be considered a performance risk.

(And the risk of it being left unlocked)