Rotala / Diamond Bus (North West)

[LancasterRed]

If somebody then bids on that, then they're accepting those times. It's no good complaining after the deal has been done!

That's the thing - nobody wants them, so LCC force them on the incumbent (usually Preston Bus) but now they've been stripped of said routes they bully smaller operators into it. With Preston Bus and Coastal Coaches both out of the question for the 77/77A, I believe they've given Blackpool Transport some free reign to incorporate it into their network. The big issue now with them is that with they may have lied about some of their pricing, which could spell trouble.

 

[KendalKing]

If somebody then bids on that, then they're accepting those times. It's no good complaining after the deal has been done!

The service was withdrawn, because all operators were fed-up of being penalised for bad time keeping. Yet LCC claimed that they was nothing wrong with the timings!

 

[Flange Squeal]

Just a repaint. Was converted a few years ago but a puzzling purchase

It appears it was not so much purchase as taken as part of a debt settlement. Simon Dunn wrote the following on the 'wmbusphotos' forum.

"I originally exchanged the bus against a debt. It was originally planned for the Midlands and was sent to paint. Bolton have since asked if they could keep it, and considering we are most in need of vehicles there in the short term, it is staying there for now"

Source: http://wmbusphotos.com/forum/index.php?topic=2074.msg282384#msg282384

 

[Volvodart]

39 of the First Manchester Volvo B7RLEs with Diamond North West have apparently now been bought and only 69xxx ones are returning to First.

 

[mic]

39 of the First Manchester Volvo B7RLEs with Diamond North West have apparently now been bought and only 69xxx ones are returning to First.

not all 69xxx returning 69157 69186 been repainted in the new Preston Bus livery

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

not all 69xxx returning 69157 69186 been repainted in the new Preston Bus livery

Perhaps 39 are staying and only a few 69*** are returning to First

 

[radamfi]

I saw on another forum they have put adverts on their buses campaigning against franchising. It might be worth remembering the main reason why Rotala bought the Bolton depot was so they could exploit the "opportunity" of franchising. It later turned out the franchising proposal meant being in the area beforehand might not be such an advantage, hence they are now opposed to it. But it does show that they were quite happy to support franchising when they thought they could benefit from it.

 

[Boo_]

I saw on another forum they have put adverts on their buses campaigning against franchising. It might be worth remembering the main reason why Rotala bought the Bolton depot was so they could exploit the "opportunity" of franchising. It later turned out the franchising proposal meant being in the area beforehand might not be such an advantage, hence they are now opposed to it. But it does show that they were quite happy to support franchising when they thought they could benefit from it.

Well you would think they would just buy the companies under Compulsory purchase. So they would look at the books to see if they was making money or not. At that time due to low passengers numbers it may lower the money they now get. And if they buy the companies they would not have any rights to the depots or routes. So they would be no better off than someone like Abellio who have set up Abellio north west ltd.
who will just bid for routes then may get given the base or could just lease a depot. And with each route they may give a bus type to use so would need to order that type anyway and staff would be Tupe over anyway.

 

[GusB]

Just a quick note to advise that I have amended the title of the thread slightly in order to eliminate confusion between the two threads we have about Rotala.

We had valid reasons for separating the Midlands discussion at the time, but if anyone feels that a single thread covering all of Rotala's operations would be better, we can consider closing the newer thread.

 

[Volvodart]

I worded it wrongly - only 69xxx are returning to First.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I saw on another forum they have put adverts on their buses campaigning against franchising. It might be worth remembering the main reason why Rotala bought the Bolton depot was so they could exploit the "opportunity" of franchising. It later turned out the franchising proposal meant being in the area beforehand might not be such an advantage, hence they are now opposed to it. But it does show that they were quite happy to support franchising when they thought they could benefit from it.

Well, yes. They're a commercial organisation and thought that it would be a "London style" network. Despite all the references to that, the franchising regime is not London style and any current operator will not only have no competitive advantage, they could well lose their business.

If it were your business, you might do the same.

Well you would think they would just buy the companies under Compulsory purchase. So they would look at the books to see if they was making money or not. At that time due to low passengers numbers it may lower the money they now get. And if they buy the companies they would not have any rights to the depots or routes. So they would be no better off than someone like Abellio who have set up Abellio north west ltd.
who will just bid for routes then may get given the base or could just lease a depot. And with each route they may give a bus type to use so would need to order that type anyway and staff would be Tupe over anyway.

They are doing that. They are proposing to buy the depots and ticketing systems (at what they consider as market prices).

Vehicles would be the responsibility of the operators though there is some proposal to underwrite residual values at the end of franchises.

Staff would indeed transfer under TUPE between operators but, and this is why the unions were against the Nexus proposals, how do you achieve competitive advantage in tendering? The view of some is to "stick it to the man" and that operators will do it for nothing.... they won't so they'll still need to make 8-9%. So if the vehicles are of a common spec (and so the price is what it is) and fuel is much the same, and the depot costs aren't an issue, then you look at the staff costs.... Not everything is protected by TUPE and, of course, you can "red circle" existing staff and recruit on lower terms and conditions.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well, yes. They're a commercial organisation and thought that it would be a "London style" network. Despite all the references to that, the franchising regime is not London style and any current operator will not only have no competitive advantage, they could well lose their business.

If it were your business, you might do the same.



They are doing that. They are proposing to buy the depots and ticketing systems (at what they consider as market prices).

Vehicles would be the responsibility of the operators though there is some proposal to underwrite residual values at the end of franchises.

Staff would indeed transfer under TUPE between operators but, and this is why the unions were against the Nexus proposals, how do you achieve competitive advantage in tendering? The view of some is to "stick it to the man" and that operators will do it for nothing.... they won't so they'll still need to make 8-9%. So if the vehicles are of a common spec (and so the price is what it is) and fuel is much the same, and the depot costs aren't an issue, then you look at the staff costs.... Not everything is protected by TUPE and, of course, you can "red circle" existing staff and recruit on lower terms and conditions.

You're right that staff costs are the biggest variable. However, vehicle costs vary due to differences in buying power of operators. Also, a bus to a very tight standard specification doesn't have to be the same make and model - look at London. Similar variances also apply to fuel hedging and insurance costs.

 

[Boo_]

Drivers are not all on same rates as it currently stands so not really going to be a change for some of the bigger groups. When I worked at Arriva Rail Replacement there was 3 or 4 rates for Staff and we all did same job. So I don't think wages will change for current staff. But new staff will be on a new standard rate am sure. until we know if they plan to break up by route or area or current owner routes it a big unknown how it will go.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You're right that staff costs are the biggest variable. However, vehicle costs vary due to differences in buying power of operators. Also, a bus to a very tight standard specification doesn't have to be the same make and model - look at London. Similar variances also apply to fuel hedging and insurance costs.

Normally, you will see large variations in purchase prices. However, if you're in a franchised environment and a deemed specification, you're more likely to see vehicles leased and so variations are much reduced. Sadly, much of the fuel price is duty and so fixed; there's some scope but not as great as often thought and certainly won't be much when looking at Stagecoach vs First vs Go Ahead vs Rotala vs Arriva.

 

[Goldfish62]

Normally, you will see large variations in purchase prices. However, if you're in a franchised environment and a deemed specification, you're more likely to see vehicles leased and so variations are much reduced. Sadly, much of the fuel price is duty and so fixed; there's some scope but not as great as often thought and certainly won't be much when looking at Stagecoach vs First vs Go Ahead vs Rotala vs Arriva.

I agree. I was merely pointing out that these costs are not absolutely fixed in a tendered environment (I'm looking at London here). I may have misinterpreted your original post as inferring that these costs would not vary at all between operators.

There is also scheduling efficiency, although of course if depot locations are to be mandated in the tender spec then there is much less scope for being clever here.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is also scheduling efficiency, although of course if depot locations are to be mandated in the tender spec then there is much less scope for being clever here.

That's part of the issue. An operator might have had some advantage in terms of proximity etc and scheduling. However, it's a procurement manager's wet dream - you commoditise the hell out of the process, tendering tightly managed packages to ratchet the cost down but it means you remove any innovation.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's part of the issue. An operator might have had some advantage in terms of proximity etc and scheduling. However, it's a procurement manager's wet dream - you commoditise the hell out of the process, tendering tightly managed packages to ratchet the cost down but it means you remove any innovation.

Yes, and innovation was squeezed out of London years ago.

Anyway, we'd better not drift any further OT.

 

[winston270twm]

39 of the First Manchester Volvo B7RLEs with Diamond North West have apparently now been bought and only 69xxx ones are returning to First.

Only 28 ex First Volvo's have been purchased in lieu of extending their leases by + 6 months, this is due to the late delivery of the final batch of 39 Streetdecks now due May/June 2021.

All ex First leased buses were originally due to be returned by 31st Dec 2020 to coincide with full delivery of Streetdecks

 

[Ken Bromage]

Only 28 ex First Volvo's have been purchased in lieu of extending their leases by + 6 months, this is due to the late delivery of the final batch of 39 Streetdecks now due May/June 2021.

All ex First leased buses were originally due to be returned by 31st Dec 2020 to coincide with full delivery of Streetdecks

The vehicles reported as purchased by Rotala are
66895/66899/66900/66904-7/66914/66918/66919/66930/69139/69142/69145/69146/69149/69153/69156-59/69164-66/69175/69178/69180/69186.

 

[markymark2000]

I saw on another forum they have put adverts on their buses campaigning against franchising. It might be worth remembering the main reason why Rotala bought the Bolton depot was so they could exploit the "opportunity" of franchising. It later turned out the franchising proposal meant being in the area beforehand might not be such an advantage, hence they are now opposed to it. But it does show that they were quite happy to support franchising when they thought they could benefit from it.

Simon Dunn has stated on another public forum that while franchising may bring opportunities to the Rotala group, his personal view is that franchising is not a good idea and thus that is the stance of the company.
With that in mind, I really question what you are saying about Diamond buying Bolton purely to get a foot in with franchising. Even more so since it has been in the documents for a while that TFGM want to own all the depots and will then lease them out to bus operators.

Rotala Management - Questions & Answers - Page 164

Rotala Management - Questions & Answers - Page 164

wmbusphotos.com

Franchising would create Business opportunities and risks. Overall, the opportunities outweigh the risks and therefore looking at it purely from a business perspective it would be positive for Rotala.

That being said, I am against Franchising, and therefore so are Rotala. Why? I consider that in the long term Market interests the best results are delivered in Partnership. There are a lot of issues with the market, the CC/OfT intervention a few years back didn't put this right and I see no inclination now to address these. However, introducing more political interference, or control isn't the answer.

Simon

 

[radamfi]

With that in mind, I really question what you are saying about Diamond buying Bolton purely to get a foot in with franchising. Even more so since it has been in the documents for a while that TFGM want to own all the depots and will then lease them out to bus operators.

When they purchased it, nobody realised that TfGM wanted to own the depots. The communication with the shareholders clearly shows they saw franchising as a good opportunity:

http://www.rotalaplc.com/cmsUploads/investor/files/Cicular_to_Shareholders_310717.pdf

Further changes to the industry are expected as a result of the Bus Services Act (‘‘the Bus Act’’), which received Royal Assent in May 2017. In parallel with the Bus Act, regional authorities have been created to take advantage of the anticipated powers that they could inherit as a result of implementation of the Bus Act.

The Directors believe an important component of the Bus Act is the possible re-franchising of bus networks in major cities throughout the UK. Rotala currently has a presence in three of those conurbations, Greater Manchester, the South West (Bristol) and the West Midlands (Birmingham). The Directors believe that re-franchising offers the prospect of considerably increasing market share in these locations where Rotala operates. If the franchising model is employed in these areas then the Directors believe that the current dominant market players will likely have their market shares eroded by new entrants to the market, thus representing a significant opportunity for the Group.

The Directors believe that Manchester will be the first Mayor-controlled local authority outside of London to franchise its bus market and believes that TfGM will want to create similar competition to that seen in London where the franchise system prevails. Representatives of TfGM have begun to consult all bus operators in the region and to collect relevant data from them, under powers granted under the Bus Act. In Greater Manchester, Rotala’s overall market share is currently very small and the Directors believe that Company has good prospects of significantly raising its market share in the future under a franchised market regime

Now that TfGM plan isn't as predicted, it is clear that incumbency is no longer as big an advantage as it was perceived (although there is still probably some advantage in knowing the market through previous ownership). The purchase of the Bolton depot may now have been a mistake. They now have more to lose by franchising so are now against it.

 

[markymark2000]

When they purchased it, nobody realised that TfGM wanted to own the depots. The communication with the shareholders clearly shows they saw franchising as a good opportunity:

http://www.rotalaplc.com/cmsUploads/investor/files/Cicular_to_Shareholders_310717.pdf

Now that TfGM plan isn't as predicted, it is clear that incumbency is no longer as big an advantage as it was perceived (although there is still probably some advantage in knowing the market through previous ownership). The purchase of the Bolton depot may now have been a mistake. They now have more to lose by franchising so are now against it.

Which is extremely interesting as they then sold off Bristol and as I have quoted above, Simon Dunn is against franchising. Very mixed messages there.

 

[freetoview33]

Which is extremely interesting as they then sold off Bristol and as I have quoted above, Simon Dunn is against franchising. Very mixed messages there.

Bristol was just ran into the ground in the end.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Which is extremely interesting as they then sold off Bristol and as I have quoted above, Simon Dunn is against franchising. Very mixed messages there.

Bristol was just ran into the ground in the end.

Bristol (and Bath) was very lucrative in the late 2000s for Rotala, notably through services that were run to/from and in partnership with UWE. They then expanded with the purchase of South Glos and more tendered services.

However, the quality was poor and declined (creating quite a perception problem with the Students, SU and UWE/UoB) so First started a load of new services. That and registering over tendered services commercially so they were pulled. It was odd that Rotala barely retaliated and were massively complacent, only reacting much later in the day when it was too late.

 

[Whiteway215]

Have Diamond North West recently been releasing several B7RLEs back to First off hire?
(Sorry I hadn’t read the previous post at the end of December!)

 

[507021]

Have Diamond North West recently been releasing several B7RLEs back to First off hire?
(Sorry I hadn’t read the previous post at the end of December!)

Yes, these have gone to Potteries and a few units in Scotland.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Have Diamond North West recently been releasing several B7RLEs back to First off hire?
(Sorry I hadn’t read the previous post at the end of December!)

In addition, there are four (66901/3/9/83) that were released and have ended up working for BoS at Bridgwater and Taunton to provide additional capacity.

 

[winston270twm]

Have Diamond North West recently been releasing several B7RLEs back to First off hire?
(Sorry I hadn’t read the previous post at the end of December!)

These are the allocation of B7RLE within First once all returned:

Aberdeen: 69135/6
Glasgow : 69137/8, 69144, 69147, 69150, 69152
Scotland East: 69201, 69220/1, 69225, 69230
Stoke : 69141/8, 69151/4/5, 69160-3/7-69170/2/3/4

Note returning to First or purchased:
Scrapped : 69142

Latest returned by Rotala on paper at least by 31st Dec are: 69135/6/7/41/48, 69154/5, 69162/3/7-9, 69172/4. 69142 is scrapped.

 

[Whiteway215]

These are the allocation of B7RLE within First on all returned:

Aberdeen: 69135/6
Glasgow : 69137/8, 69144, 69147, 69150, 69152
Scotland East: 69201, 69220/1, 69225, 69230
Stoke : 69141/8, 69151/4/5, 69160-3/7-69170/2/3/4

Note returning to First or purchased:
Scrapped : 69142

Latest returned by Rotala on paper at least by 31st Dec are: 69135/6/7/41/48, 69154/5, 69162/3/7-9, 69172/4. 69142 is scrapped.

Thanks for that.

 

[JetBlast]

Why was 69142 scrapped please?