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Routemaster Buses Limited have licence revoked

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northwichcat

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ROUTEMASTER BUSES LTD
Director(s): GRAHAM ALAN MEADOWS, ANDREW HAYWARD, DAVID QUAYLE
UNIT 3, GATE FARM, WETTENHALL ROAD, NANTWICH, CW5 6AL
Registered Bus Services running under this licence have also been revoked with immediate effect.

They started out as two ex-Londoners offering Routemaster and vintage buses on hire for events such as weddings and then moved in to operating school services and then public services. On occasions their vintage buses appeared on public bus services e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/arrivanorthwestwaleswrexhamdepotfleet/24955909301/

Where it went wrong was they registered an hourly Chester-Crewe commercial service after Arriva cut their service from half-hourly to hourly. However, GHA Coaches decided to then register a Chester-Crewe service 5 minutes ahead of the Routemaster Buses one. Routemaster applied to cancel their Chester-Crewe service but then couldn't afford to keep it running until the cancellation date and then struggled to kept contracted services running. All their contracted services finished up being transferred to D&G Bus and a couple of their buses transferred as well.
 
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Busaholic

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They started out as two ex-Londoners offering Routemaster and vintage buses on hire for events such as weddings and then moved in to operating school services and then public services. On occasions their vintage buses appeared on public bus services e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/arrivanorthwestwaleswrexhamdepotfleet/24955909301/

Where it went wrong was they registered an hourly Chester-Crewe commercial service after Arriva cut their service from half-hourly to hourly. However, GHA Coaches decided to then register a Chester-Crewe service 5 minutes ahead of the Routemaster Buses one. Routemaster applied to cancel their Chester-Crewe service but then couldn't afford to keep it running until the cancellation date and then struggled to kept contracted services running. All their contracted services finished up being transferred to D&G Bus and a couple of their buses transferred as well.

Hard not to feel sorry for Routemaster Buses on the face of it. Something wrong with the system of registration/deregistration imo. We will have no independents left except in very isolated areas if this continues.
 

daikilo

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Hard not to feel sorry for Routemaster Buses on the face of it. Something wrong with the system of registration/deregistration imo. We will have no independents left except in very isolated areas if this continues.

Surely GHA is no longer so what is the real issue with Routemaster?
 

Busaholic

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Surely GHA is no longer so what is the real issue with Routemaster?

A cowboy operator can make life difficult for a struggling independent trying to make a living, help put them out of business, depart the scene themselves like all cowboys and watch the independent fold: not that I know any more about the situation than what is reported here, just a general observation, you understand.;)
 

Y961 XBU

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GHA had already done the Damage before they closed shop, Routemasters C84 had really started to do well and i believe if GHA had not of gone onto the 84 then Routemaster Buses would of survived
 

northwichcat

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I imagine the problem was Routemaster acquired 3 additional buses for the C84 route and presumably needed the revenue from that route to pay for the buses.

It was also reported GHA poached some of Routemaster's drivers. GHA were suffering from driver shortages before they started their duplicate 84 service.
 

northwichcat

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A cowboy operator can make life difficult for a struggling independent trying to make a living, help put them out of business, depart the scene themselves like all cowboys and watch the independent fold: not that I know any more about the situation than what is reported here, just a general observation, you understand.;)

Perhaps the 56 days needs to be relaxed in instances where another operator starts up a duplicate service to almost identical timings.
 

SWTH

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GHA and their 84 service were indeed the undoing of Routemaster. Ironically, GHA ceased trading before their 56 days were up on their cancellation of the service that did so much damage to Routemaster.

I do know rather a lot more but it's not my place to write details.

Suffice to say the C84 would have worked well had GHA not stuck their oar in.
 

Busaholic

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GHA had already done the Damage before they closed shop, Routemasters C84 had really started to do well and i believe if GHA had not of gone onto the 84 then Routemaster Buses would of survived

That was my reading of the situation, a gut reaction if you like, from afar.
 

Busaholic

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Perhaps the 56 days needs to be relaxed in instances where another operator starts up a duplicate service to almost identical timings.

Yes, the system is too rigid. Both the 'cowboy' and the 'big boys' know how to work the system: it is the genuine small operator trying to make an honest living and serve the public who is penalised.
 

northwichcat

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Yes, the system is too rigid. Both the 'cowboy' and the 'big boys' know how to work the system: it is the genuine small operator trying to make an honest living and serve the public who is penalised.

The 56 days notice is really a broken system. When GHA Coaches had the 88 route they ran a 05:20 Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham service as a positional move. If you wanted to make an onward journey from Wilmslow to Manchester Airport or to London by rail that could have been a useful service. Even if GHA hadn't collapsed they could have given the TC 56 days notice that they wanted to withdraw the early services, publicised the withdrawal to passengers the week before the change and people with flight bookings or advance rail bookings would have had a problem.
 
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daikilo

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The 56 days notice is really a broken system. When GHA Coaches had the 88 route they ran a 05:20 Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham service as a positional move. If you wanted to make an onward journey from Wilmslow to Manchester Airport or to London by rail that could have been a useful service. Even if GHA hadn't collapsed they could have given the TC 56 days notice, publicised the withdrawal to passengers the week before the change and people with flight bookings or advance rail bookings would have had a problem.

My impression is that its not just the 56 days that are the issue, but the whole process of getting operating approval. If Routemaster could have survived (or better) if GHA had not "poached" their traffic, then the current process has resulted in what was a viable service being converted into no service at all (unless someone else steps or is brought in).
 

317 forever

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There seems to have been more bus company casualties than usual in 2016. Not only Routemaster Buses and GHA as mentioned here, but others I can think of include Tates Travel, Ladies' Only Travel and Webberbus.
 

MotCO

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There seems to have been more bus company casualties than usual in 2016. Not only Routemaster Buses and GHA as mentioned here, but others I can think of include Tates Travel, Ladies' Only Travel and Webberbus.

And some of the more established operators, such as Silcox.
 

northwichcat

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There seems to have been more bus company casualties than usual in 2016. Not only Routemaster Buses and GHA as mentioned here, but others I can think of include Tates Travel, Ladies' Only Travel and Webberbus.

On some occasions in the past there's been near collapses but some kind of deal with another operator prevented a collapse e.g. Bakerbus operations being sold to D&G Bus.
 

RT4038

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The 56 days notice is really a broken system. When GHA Coaches had the 88 route they ran a 05:20 Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham service as a positional move. If you wanted to make an onward journey from Wilmslow to Manchester Airport or to London by rail that could have been a useful service. Even if GHA hadn't collapsed they could have given the TC 56 days notice that they wanted to withdraw the early services, publicised the withdrawal to passengers the week before the change and people with flight bookings or advance rail bookings would have had a problem.

Maybe it is not the 56 day rule that is the problem, but that of under capitalised small operators rashly registering services without considering the possible actions of other operators and the effect this may have on their finances. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen and all that.
 

Dai Corner

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Whilst feeling sorry for Routemaster directors and staff who have lost their livelihoods I'm afraid I tend to agree with RT4028.

If Arriva didn't find a half hourly service as part of their extensive network was viable why did Routemaster think they could make it work in its own?

Shouldn't their business plan should have been along the lines of "It will cost us £x to run this service for 26 weeks. After 18 weeks we will look at the revenue we get and if it's not profitable we'll give the statutory eight weeks' notice and withdraw. The worst case is that we lose £x and we can afford that"
 

northwichcat

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If Arriva didn't find a half hourly service as part of their extensive network was viable why did Routemaster think they could make it work in its own?

Well D&G Bus have taken over a number of routes which Arriva didn't think were commercially viable and have made them work on a commercial basis, so Arriva deciding a service isn't commercially viable doesn't mean another operator can't make it work.
 

northwichcat

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Maybe it is not the 56 day rule that is the problem, but that of under capitalised small operators rashly registering services without considering the possible actions of other operators and the effect this may have on their finances. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen and all that.

If Arriva had cancelled their 84 service altogether and Routemaster had registered an hourly service leaving Chester at xx:00 and then GHA had registered an hourly service leaving Chester at xx:30 then yes Routemaster should have to give 56 days notice.

However, Routemaster had already tried to run an Arriva replacement service on another route in the Crewe area and cancelled their registration as soon as they realised D&G had also registered a replacement service. They had left it a few weeks after Arriva had given notice of their service reduction before registering their C84 (presumably to avoid the same thing happening again) and then as soon as they registered it GHA decided Routemaster were invading 'their area' and registered a duplicate service just ahead of it. GHA also started circulating misleading information about Routemaster e.g. saying their ticket machines didn't accept ENCTS passes. If the TC isn't going to prevent such circumstances occurring then why should an operator be forced to continue to run practically empty buses for 8 weeks while a cowboy operator steals their passengers?

Anyway in the post you quoted I was actually implying 56 days is insufficient notice in some circumstances. If you can buy an Advance rail ticket 12 weeks in advance should a bus operator be allowed to make the first bus later or the last bus earlier giving just 8 weeks notice if the bus is supposed to serve a railway station?
 
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Tetchytyke

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There are countless examples of Arriva pulling out of services that others manage to take over commercially.

The 56 day rule isn't the problem, the problem is the operator committing to something they couldn't do. They should be budgeting for the 56 days service, assuming zero income, as a contingency plan for their business. I know that sounds harsh, but the statutory notice period is not a new thing and there should be a contingency plan in case a commercial service is a failure. We wouldn't tolerate a big operator cutting the 56 day rule for "unprofitable" routes.
 

northwichcat

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The 56 day rule isn't the problem, the problem is the operator committing to something they couldn't do. They should be budgeting for the 56 days service, assuming zero income, as a contingency plan for their business. I know that sounds harsh, but the statutory notice period is not a new thing and there should be a contingency plan in case a commercial service is a failure. We wouldn't tolerate a big operator cutting the 56 day rule for "unprofitable" routes.

Routemaster weren't right to stop running the C84 without giving 56 days notice but the question is perhaps whether a blanket 56 days notice rule is suitable. If they had been running a subsided service and another operator had started up a duplicate service the council would have to withdraw the contract at short notice which would allow a short notice cancellation to be granted. However, with a commercial service a short notice cancellation isn't permitted.
 

RT4038

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Routemaster weren't right to stop running the C84 without giving 56 days notice but the question is perhaps whether a blanket 56 days notice rule is suitable. If they had been running a subsided service and another operator had started up a duplicate service the council would have to withdraw the contract at short notice which would allow a short notice cancellation to be granted. However, with a commercial service a short notice cancellation isn't permitted.

There is no blanket 56 day rule now; there are rules for specific instances where the Traffic Commissioners grant a short notice application for changes within 56 days. Even these rules can produce some unintended results. Trying to produce rules for the kind of circumstances envisaged here, and not producing more unintended results would be quite difficult. As you can see, 56 days can be quite a barrier for a small company to register a service and then find it unprofitable. In this case (and in others) this has brought the company down.
The bus industry has no say in railway Advanced ticketing booking windows, or indeed of those common in the Airline Industry. The number of passengers making these kind of connections must be quite small in the general scheme of things. It is always possible for the passenger to substitute the bus journey with a taxi if the need arises due to timetable changes/withdrawal in the meantime. There is no general right to road transport travel at bus fares following advance purchase of any kind of ticket, be it another transport mode or entertainment venue etc. If you do not wish to take the risk, do not buy any other ticket prior to 56 days before travel.
 
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philthetube

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Whilst feeling sorry for Routemaster directors and staff who have lost their livelihoods I'm afraid I tend to agree with RT4028.

If Arriva didn't find a half hourly service as part of their extensive network was viable why did Routemaster think they could make it work in its own?

Shouldn't their business plan should have been along the lines of "It will cost us £x to run this service for 26 weeks. After 18 weeks we will look at the revenue we get and if it's not profitable we'll give the statutory eight weeks' notice and withdraw. The worst case is that we lose £x and we can afford that"

The problem with this is that the losers are the potential passengers. if a company may end up being forced to run a service for zero revenue for 56 days they may well just not bother. It would take a long time to make up that revenue on other services.
 

Busaholic

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Routemaster weren't right to stop running the C84 without giving 56 days notice but the question is perhaps whether a blanket 56 days notice rule is suitable. If they had been running a subsided service and another operator had started up a duplicate service the council would have to withdraw the contract at short notice which would allow a short notice cancellation to be granted. However, with a commercial service a short notice cancellation isn't permitted.

This is taking me back fifty years to a time when I was taking my 'A' levels and C.P. Snow was in the news with his book and thoughts on 'Two Cultures'. We essentially have had two cultures since bus deregulation, the one where competition is king and enterprise must not be denied, and the other where the Traffic Commissioners still reign supreme in the detailed small print and can get quite pernickety about it too.

So bus company A gets set up with 'clean skins' and a reputable transport manager, bombards local media with press releases which get faithfully reprinted, this now being the extent of most local journalism, and announces a 'brand new experience' on the route from Shangri La to Neverland which company B has faithfully operated for 20 years. The new experience is a couple of fifteen year old buses which have been adorned with new paint such that the old liveries are almost obscured, with a fare of 20p any distance and operating five minutes ahead of company B's, in both directions. It is no concern of the TCs that, by any logical point of view, it is not possible for two companies to operate the route successfully: even predatory pricing is a matter for the competition authority, who might stir their stumps after a year or so (and preferably when the situation has resolved itself). 'A' starts their route, but after two weeks complain to the TC that some of 'B's drivers are running early, even leaving stops ahead of 'A'. The TC takes the complaint seriously and send their officials to monitor the situation, and over a two-day period finds 13% of B's buses were running over one minute early. 'B' is then given a written warning, and decides on receiving it to give 56 day notice of withdrawing from the route, which it duly does. In the meantime, 'A' has suddenly discovered that 20p is not a viable fare but £2 is, so that's what it becomes. As B's 56 days count down, though, it's A's services which start to go to pot. The engine of one of their two buses seizes, but in any case they no longer have sufficient drivers as some have left in frustration after waiting too long for their wages to be paid. A week after 'B' leave the route, 'A' do too, an hour's notice via Twitter informing both passengers and staff that they've gone into administration. The County Council makes noises, but everyone knows where the blame lies.

Here is my (partial) solution to the situation. When the TC gets a proposal by an operator to start a route, and provides a proposed timetable, then the TC should inform every other operator which has a route along the same roads (say, 25% and more) and give them the opportunity to amend their route or timetable or even withdraw their route from the date of inception of the rival, all conditional on it actually happening. So then the operator planning to run 5 minutes in front can find they'd actually be running 5 minutes behind, and may decide not to proceed after all. This could be refined so that a to-ing and fro-ing results and, who knows, sense might prevail in that A's times are midway between B's. Markets could still be said to have prevailed, for those with a fetish for such things.
 

northwichcat

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There is no blanket 56 day rule now; there are rules for specific instances where the Traffic Commissioners grant a short notice application for changes within 56 days.

It seems SN changes are reserved for where a local authority backs a change, where an operator steps in to provide a replacement for a service which another operator has withdrawn or where roadworks require a temporary change to be made. I've never heard of a SN being accepted because another operator has registered a duplicate service and like I said the problem isn't just that 8 weeks is a long time if someone else is stealing all your passengers, it's limited notice for passengers if a service is being withdrawn altogether.

You could also throw in to the mix should GHA have been allowed to register a 84 service without cancelling other services given they were frequent no shows on other routes due to driver shortages? And guess what happened after they started running their 84 service. Some services didn't turn up because they didn't have a driver available!
 
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RT4038

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The problem with this is that the losers are the potential passengers. if a company may end up being forced to run a service for zero revenue for 56 days they may well just not bother. It would take a long time to make up that revenue on other services.

Well, if an operator registers a service and, after starting, earns zero revenue then they can't have much business acumen and shouldn't be trading at all! I think that the point being made is that the operator must have sufficient financial reserves to operate the service with another operator competing against them for at least 56 days ( and probably a bit more as it will take a while to decide whether there is a chance of winning the competitive battle).

No doubt that the 56 day rule might discourage under capitalised companies from starting new services - but it also prevents all companies from withdrawing services with minimal notice. Can't have it both ways i'm afraid.
 

RT4038

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Here is my (partial) solution to the situation. When the TC gets a proposal by an operator to start a route, and provides a proposed timetable, then the TC should inform every other operator which has a route along the same roads (say, 25% and more) and give them the opportunity to amend their route or timetable or even withdraw their route from the date of inception of the rival, all conditional on it actually happening. So then the operator planning to run 5 minutes in front can find they'd actually be running 5 minutes behind, and may decide not to proceed after all. This could be refined so that a to-ing and fro-ing results and, who knows, sense might prevail in that A's times are midway between B's. Markets could still be said to have prevailed, for those with a fetish for such things.

So, I as an operator, has a commercial idea. Firstly I will inform the Traffic Commissioners so they can then tout my idea to any existing operator to use free of charge (or amend their offering to sabotage the financial viability of my idea).
In every business there is an element of risk; will sufficient customers buy the product at a price that the proprietor can make a profit? In every area of trade many go to the wall. Look before you leap and minimise that risk.
 

RT4038

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It seems SN changes are reserved for where a local authority backs a change, where an operator steps in to provide a replacement for a service which another operator has withdrawn or where roadworks require a temporary change to be made. I've never heard of a SN being accepted because another operator has registered a duplicate service and like I said the problem isn't just that 8 weeks is a long time if someone else is stealing all your passengers, it's limited notice for passengers if a service is being withdrawn altogether.

You could also throw in to the mix should GHA have been allowed to register a 84 service without cancelling other services given they were frequent no shows on other routes due to driver shortages? And guess what happened after they started running their 84 service. Some services didn't turn up because they didn't have a driver available!

Form PSV350a shows all the circumstances that an operator can cancel or amend a service at less than 56 days notice. (more than the examples given above). There is even a possibility of any other reason which could not have been reasonably foreseen at 56 days notice. Good luck at getting them to agree to ''someone has started to compete with me". Merely mentioning this reason might invite a probe of your financial standing.
Running bus services is a serious business, and does not lend itself to 'hand to mouth' operators who cannot finance the possible competitive action. The saying 'If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen' springs to mind.

The Traffic Commissioners are not looking at the minutae of every business and weighing up different aspects before 'granting' a registration. They have to accept the registration. They can take action against unreliable operation. However, both items are dealt with separately.
 
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