Routing - A question on opinions from other experts.

[Solent&Wessex]

All,

This is a Routeing Guide question. I am hoping to gain the thoughts on this from other experts and students of the Routeing Guide.

Situation 1:

Passenger has ticket from York to Hull, Rte Not Doncaster or Rte Any Permitted. A lot of these crop up at Leeds with passengers going York to Leeds then changing and going Leeds to Hull. The same applies with passengers from North of York (with Rte Any Permitted) changing at Leeds.

What is a permitted route?

Here is my reasoning:

a) Is it on a "through train"? No.
b) Is it on the shortest route?. No.

Use the Routeing Guide.

York - Hull is valid on Map ER or TP.

ER is valid York - Selby - Hull, and does not include York - Leeds, so is not valid that way. Nor does it include Leeds - Selby.

TP is valid York - Leeds and Leeds - Hull, but does not include York - Selby direct.

Now the instructions for the Routeing Guide are:

If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey).

Thus, you could argue that going via Leeds is NOT PERMITTED with either ticket as you are doubling back between Micklefield and Leeds. Or you could argue that it IS PERMITTED as the TPE trains you are on doesn't stop anywhere between York & Leeds and again between Leeds & Selby so you are not "passing through the same station twice".

Checking the Easements, there is only one which is vaguely relevant:

300402 Customers travelling from Selby to Thirsk and beyond in possesion oif tickets routed TPE
ONLY may travel via Leeds. This easement applies in both directions.

I cannot find any easement in place which allows passengers to double back between Leeds and Micklefield.

The argument is always "The ticket says Not Doncaster, and I'm not going via Doncaster,so therefore it is ok". or "The ticket says Any permitted so it is OK".

Situation 2:

Passenger has ticket from Selby to any station between Micklefield and Crossgates, Rte Any Permitted. They are returning in an evening or weekend when no Direct Northern services operate. They want to go via Leeds and double back.

I argue this is not valid as they are doubling back. They argue that there is no other way to get there as there are no stopping trains, and the ticket says any permitted, and in some case (the Garforth fare for example) the Any Permitted fare is actually higher than the Leeds to Selby fare!

The only relevant part of the easements is:

000045 Journeys to Garforth from stations east of Selby may go via York. This easement applies
in both directions.

But that isn't very helpful either!



Thoughts please anyone???

 

[tony_mac]

Thus, you could argue that going via Leeds is NOT PERMITTED with either ticket as you are doubling back between Micklefield and Leeds.

I think it's (another) cockup in the routeing guide.

Why would map TP be on the list then, as it only allows travel via Leeds?
So, they obviously intended to allow travel via Leeds, but haven't put in an easement allowing it. The websites also say it's ok, so I don't think that there should be any doubt about accepting it - even though it isn't allowed according to the rules.

here you go....

Take details of the disputed route which the customer now claims to
be prevented from using and forward to the Customer Relations Office
of any Train Operator providing services along the disputed route.
Remember to record the customer’s name and address. (The relevant
addresses of the Train Operating Companies are shown in section E of
the National Routeing Guide).
4. Advise the customer that a ruling will be sought through the
Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) in liaison with the
Office of the Rail Regulator and Department for Transport, to ascertain
whether the disputed route should be allowed or declined. A written
reply will be sent by ATOC direct to the customer advising them of the
adjudication as soon as possible.
5. Upon receipt of a disputed routeing from a customer the Customer
Relations Office should arrange to forward details to ATOC as soon as
possible to allow for a prompt adjudication.
6. Should a disputed route be conceded the customer will be entitled to a
refund of fare for any additional payment that may have been
necessary to have allowed them to make their journey via the disputed
route. In this event, the customer will be compensated.
7. Where a disputed route is conceded, ATOC will arrange for an
additional easement to be published and distributed to all retail outlets
via Newsrail Express.

 

[yorkie]

Situation 1

Perfectly fine via Leeds, as you are not doubling back except WITHIN the Leeds Group

Also direct via Hambleton Jn may not be a mapped route but is also perfectly valid as it is the shortest route

Situation 2

Not valid via Leeds as they are going to a member of the Leeds group, therefore they cannot double back within the group. May sound harsh but it's true. This makes South Milford to Crossgates rather tricky in the evenings....

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group.

examples:

Church Fenton - South Milford = valid via Leeds
York - Crossgates = NOT valid via Leeds
York - Hull = valid via Leeds
Micklefield - Garforth = NOT valid via Leeds
Selby - Garforth = NOT valid via Leeds

 

[tony_mac]

whoops - I didn't realise that Leeds group included all those stations!

 

[yorkie]

It would make many journeys impossible or very difficult otherwise.

The connections at Micklefield are not always great. If you are doing, say, York to South Milford, you have 5 minutes to go a very long way down to the road (look down and see how far down it is) and walk all the way back up!! If you're a couple of minutes late, you're stuffed. I would not want to be stuck there for an hour!

Going from South Milford to York the connection is 59 minutes (or -1 if you are lucky, but a -1 at Micklefield is harder than a -5 at a cross platform station!!!) it is unreasonable to expect passengers to do this, so going via Leeds is sensible and the Routeing Guide reflects that.

Try it on an evening or any time on a Sunday and it can't be done changing at Micklefield as there are no Leeds-Selby stoppers and the 'ull services call at South Milford to compensate.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

whoops - I didn't realise that Leeds group included all those stations!

Same mistake I made. I knew Leeds group was quite big, but forgot about checking that. I must add I have never charged anyone any extra for doing the above journeys, but have always wondered!

p.s. - Yorkie, your quote from the Routeing Guide re Group Stations is different to that on the ATOC website at the moment:

Group Stations (Routeing Point Groups)
Sometimes several stations have been grouped together to make a
Routeing Point Group. Take Manchester as an example. The
Manchester Group includes: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester
Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria, Deansgate, Salford Crescent
and Salford Central. Routeing Point Groups allow passengers to
change trains at any station in the Group and even to double back
between stations to enlarge the choice of permitted trains and
improve the convenience of changing.

This version which is in the currently online edition of the Glossary does not say that you can't double back within the group for journeys within the group - so Selby - Garforth via Leeds is valid according to this quote above - I think?!?!

 

[mathmo]

p.s. - Yorkie, your quote from the Routeing Guide re Group Stations is different to that on the ATOC website at the moment:

This version which is in the currently online edition of the Glossary does not say that you can't double back within the group for journeys within the group - so Selby - Garforth via Leeds is valid according to this quote above - I think?!?!

Yorkie's quote is taken from Section A of the current Routeing Guide, which has the title "Instructions" so probably overrules the Glossary.

 

[clagmonster]

I've just looked in the instructions section A of the routeing guide, and found exactly the same quote as Yorkie which is the entire of the group stations section. This is marked as updated on 2 July 2009. KWVR45, where did you get your quote from? I would not be at all surprised if there is a contradiction in there.
For the York-Hull example, this should be valid via Leeds, as the Leeds group should consist of Leeds City, Cross Gates, Garforth, East Garforth and Micklefield, hence as Yorkie says all doubling back should take place within the Leeds group. However, at the moment, the group stations list is messed up and claims Leeds group consists of the following:
DONCASTER
BRADFORD GROUP
PONTEFRACT GROUP
SHEFFIELD GROUP
WAKEFIELD GROUP
HUDDERSFIELD GROUP
HELLIFIELD GROUP
MEADOWHALL
SELBY
YORK

In case 2, I would say that on a weekday or Saturday the ticket is not valid, and depending on the journey being made a ticket to Leeds should be issued, and if the doubling back is taking place in both directions a day return Leeds to Cross Gates. However, on a Sunday, as the ticket is only valid on that day, I would say that the route via Leeds is the only route with a regular service, so the route is valid.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yorkie's quote is taken from Section A of the current Routeing Guide, which has the title "Instructions" so probably overrules the Glossary.

Both Glossary and Section A are dated 02/07/2009, so a bit of ambiguity and conflict within the Routeing guide!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've just looked in the instructions section A of the routeing guide, and found exactly the same quote as Yorkie which is the entire of the group stations section. This is marked as updated on 2 July 2009. KWVR45, where did you get your quote from? I would not be at all surprised if there is a contradiction in there.

My Quote was from the Glossary, also dated 2nd July 2009. So yes, there is contradiction!

 

[yorkie]

Hang on, I see the confusion!!!

Leeds Group is a Routeing Point. That's not actually the same as Group Stations for interchange purposes. It's also not the same as Station groups (e.g. "Pontefract stations")

In the case of Leeds, the members of the Leeds Group routing point are identical to the group for interchange purposes, however I believe that's not always the case.

Confused? If you weren't before, I bet you are now!!

 

[theblackwatch]

Having now ascertained in (1) that it would be valid via Leeds, as York-Leeds is valid via Harrogate, could the ticket in question be used via that route?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Glossary - dated 02/07/09:

Group Stations (Routeing Point Groups)
Sometimes several stations have been grouped together to make a
Routeing Point Group. Take Manchester as an example. The
Manchester Group includes: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester
Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria, Deansgate, Salford Crescent
and Salford Central. Routeing Point Groups allow passengers to
change trains at any station in the Group and even to double back
between stations to enlarge the choice of permitted trains and
improve the convenience of changing.

Section A - dated 02/07/09:

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group.

So Group Stations are not the same as Group Stations?? Mmmmm?:?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hang on, I see the confusion!!!

Leeds Group is a Routeing Point. That's not actually the same as Group Stations for interchange purposes. It's also not the same as Station groups (e.g. "Pontefract stations")

In the case of Leeds, the members of the Leeds Group routing point are identical to the group for interchange purposes, however I believe that's not always the case.

Confused? If you weren't before, I bet you are now!!

And where can one find out the differences between Group Stations for interchange purposes, and Routeing point Groups??

 

[yorkie]

Having now ascertained in (1) that it would be valid via Leeds, as York-Leeds is valid via Harrogate, could the ticket in question be used via that route?

Hull-York?

Permitted routes are on maps:-

ER
TP

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/Maps.asp

Neither includes Harrogate, so no it's not valid via Harrogate.

 

[glynn80]

Having now ascertained in (1) that it would be valid via Leeds, as York-Leeds is valid via Harrogate, could the ticket in question be used via that route?

The routeing guide unfortunately does not work in a "recursive" manor.

To illustrate recursion in the routeing guide sense, if a ticket has a permitted route from "A to D via B" and "B to D is permitted via C", then that does not automatically mean " A to D is permitted via B and C".

However in the case you bring up, between York and Leeds, there are no extra routeing points (i.e. no point C) and therefore any route is permitted between them which does not pass through another routeing point. The route via Harrogate does satisfy this requirement and is such a permitted route.

Hull-York?

Permitted routes are on maps:-

ER
TP

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/Maps.asp

Neither includes Harrogate, so no it's not valid via Harrogate.

Harrogate is not a routeing point, it is a member of the York and Leeds group and thus it need not appear (and in most circumstances it won't) on said maps.

 

[yorkie]

I believe a ticket to Cattal is valid via Leeds.

Cattal has two routeing points: York and Leeds.

Cattal to Hull (Not Doncaster) SDS is £19.10 (same price as Poppleton & Hammerton)
Leeds to Hull SDS is £17.90

Therefore Leeds is a valid routeing point. Therefore a valid route is Hull to Leeds via the mapped routes on map TP, plus the shortest route from Leeds to Cattal. At just over 28 miles, the routes are equidistant, with the Harrogate route being a few chains shorter according to Railmiles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Harrogate is not a routeing point, it is a member of the York and Leeds group and thus it need not appear (and in most circumstances it won't) on said maps.

Yes, you're right. This is too complicated. Good job there's a few of us here to put each other right at times

 

[glynn80]

Yes, you're right. This is too complicated. Good job there's a few of us here to put each other right at times

Don't worry, I very nearly posted it wasn't valid via Harrogate as well but double checked at the last minute!

 

[theblackwatch]

I can imagine one or two staff on the trains arguing against its validity. Out of interest (and probably one for kwvr45 to answer), what training do on-train staff have on the routeing guide?

 

[yorkie]

Leeds Group is a Routeing Point. That's not actually the same as Group Stations for interchange purposes.

I've looked into this and I think they are the same after all. They are quoted in 2 different places, with different definitions, but they do appear to be the same thing. Sorry for the added confusion!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I can imagine one or two staff on the trains arguing against its validity. Out of interest (and probably one for kwvr45 to answer), what training do on-train staff have on the routeing guide?

None at all. Most newish folk don't even know it exists! Older hands remember they used to have a copy in the back of the locker years ago but thought it didn't apply any more as the paper copy is no longer produced.

We also get very little retail training after the initial (very basic) course when you start out. TPE have just started a very basic refresher course which everyone is being sent on, but the one I went on was so vague it raised more questions than it answered.

We recently recieved a new glossy "Retail Matters" newsletter, but unfortunately it contained one major glaring error, and the rest was just waffle and company propoganda.

Fares Manuals are no longer printed and we have no internet access at the company so have no access to the Fares Manual ( I only go onto it as I am a) a crank and b) have the password). Extracts from the fares manuals are not provided to us. There is a scabby folder somewhere in our signing on point which has some out of date Rover / ranger maps in and some out of date PTE information but that is about it. New promotions and suchlike are occasionally briefed out via means of a notice in the notice case, but this is generally only for TPE specific promotions such as Club 55, Airport Advance, E Tickets etc.

All in all most of what I know is knowledge from previous jobs or self taught as you go along. I suspect this is the same for most. Most of my colleagues that are "keen" seem to be pretty much self taught.

I must say back to the original topic, It doesn't help when the control centre don't know what you are on about.

I had a chap get on a York one day with a Harrogate to Leeds Single. I said it wasn't valid via York. He said it was as the ticket said "Any Permitted". I said it wasn't a permitted route via York. He then refused to pay any more and insisted he had been told at the station it was fine. So, just for clarification I rung our Retail Control. These are the guys we are told to ring for any information or for things we don't know. I now have the Routeing Guide as pdf files on my mobile so I can look, but at that time the other year I didn't. The control said it was valid as it said Any permitted on it and that meant he could go anywhere. I then told them it wasn't and asked them to check the wording about permitted routes in the routing guide. I was then asked what the routing guide was? I made the bloke pay and told him to contact customer relations if he had any problem. Thankfully Customer Relations (which is either in Plymouth / Bristol / Swindon or Reading - but I think Plymouth) are quite good on these things.

 

[CarterUSM]

If I had a pound for every time i've heard the line, 'but it's any route permitted!' i'd have several thousand pounds! I recently had a chap travelling between hairmyres and glasgow central with a bellshill-glasgow central season ticket with the excuse that it was exactly the same price as the HMY-GLC season. I tried my best not to laugh, but he was exceedingly persistent about it. As above though, he was politely charged full single fare and referred to customer relations with any complaints. With regards to routing guide nowadays, i'm not so sure companies hold it in the same regard as years gone by, they seem to be falling over to please passengers instead, which isn't a bad thing, but not to the detriment of professionalism shown by staff doing their job.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

On the subject of Group stations, here is another one for you:

Passenger wants to travel from Brighouse to Leeds. There are direct trains from Brighouse to Leeds, but at this time The quickest journey is into Huddersfield and then up to Leeds. This journey involves doubling back through Deighton. This is not the shortest route, or on a through train so is not automatically a permitted route.

Now, Brighouse has Routeing points of Halifax Group and Huddersfield Group. Deighton is part of the Huddersfield Group and as such doubling back would be allowed as Brighouse is not part of the Huddersfield Group.

But, when selecting appropriate routeing points consideration must be given to the fare paid. The instructions say that a Routeing point is only appropriate if the fare from the Routeing point is the same or lower than the throughout fare. Ie, Huddersfield is only appropriate if the Huddersfield to Leeds fare is the same or lower than the Brighouse to Leeds fare. It isn't. Brighouse to Leeds SDS is £3.65, Huddersfield to Leeds SDS is £4.15.

Now, when considering the Huddersfield Group do you consider the fare from Huddersfield in this manner?
.

 

[tony_mac]

It doesn't specify in the routeing guide what happens when the routeing point is a group, rather than a station.
In this case, Deighton to Leeds passes the fares check rule, so you can say that Huddersfield Group to Leeds is valid for this journey.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It doesn't specify in the routeing guide what happens when the routeing point is a group, rather than a station.
In this case, Deighton to Leeds passes the fares check rule, so you can say that Huddersfield Group to Leeds is valid for this journey.

I can't see why this should be allowed. I can't see why Just because Deighton passes the fares check then going via Huddersfield is ok?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The intention is that the groups are for interchange purposes only, so the routeing point is Huddersfield rather than Deighton or any other station in the group.

That said, my Fastis does show validity for travel via Huddersfield for some reason, perhaps because it has been interpreted as a valid route because of the group station or maybe there is an easement somewhere.

 

[yorkie]

It doesn't specify in the routeing guide what happens when the routeing point is a group, rather than a station.
In this case, Deighton to Leeds passes the fares check rule, so you can say that Huddersfield Group to Leeds is valid for this journey.

The fares check rule doesn't come into it. Deighton is a member of Huddersfield Group. Therefore no fares check to determine appropriate Routeing Points (RPs). It is an RP. I agree it's not clear but the implication is that doubling back within the group is not valid, but in some cases that is rather unfair and probably would not be enforced as it defies common sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That said, my Fastis does show validity for travel via Huddersfield for some reason, perhaps because it has been interpreted as a valid route because of the group station or maybe there is an easement somewhere.

How would it know it's doubling back?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't know how the machine deals with the guide or routeing issues because I didn't program it, however it is supposed to account for that sort of thing.

 

[glynn80]

I don't know how the machine deals with the guide or routeing issues because I didn't program it, however it is supposed to account for that sort of thing.

Because Deighton is not a timing point, Fastis does not recognise it as a station when calculating permitted routes (it is like it doesn't exist) and thus the system doesn't believe you are doubling back.

 

[Multiple Unit]

I was wondering about Wigan NW to Bury as the Best / Fastest route by map would be WIGAN NW - Warrington Bank Quay - Man Pic-Bury rather than take the Longer / slower route from Wallgate Ill be using me Priv Discount for the Ticket.

 

[First class]

I was wondering about Wigan NW to Bury as the Best / Fastest route by map would be WIGAN NW - Warrington Bank Quay - Man Pic-Bury rather than take the Longer / slower route from Wallgate Ill be using me Priv Discount for the Ticket.

IRRC, no PRIV (or any other) discount allowed, nor do through fares exist from Wigan-Bury. You'd have to split at Warrington and buy a full price Warrington-Bury Mtlk ticket (routes below).


Permitted routes from Warrington to Manchester I imagine are either via Earlestown (Bank Quay) or via Birchwood (Warrington Ctl).

Just checked and you can get a Burscough Bridge-Bury Mtlk ticket, (valid via Wigan), but no discount available.

 

[Multiple Unit]

IRRC, no PRIV (or any other) discount allowed, nor do through fares exist from Wigan-Bury. You'd have to split at Warrington and buy a full price Warrington-Bury Mtlk ticket.

Permitted routes from Warrington to Manchester I imagine are either via Earlestown (Bank Quay) or via Birchwood (Warrington Ctl).

Yeh probably Buy Wigan-MCR Tkt then Metro Link to Bury id imagine CREWE as a Perm ret as well.